New Computers woes
By
Father Xmas,
Posted on: 2012-09-16 09:03 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
Quote:
If you want a gaming PC with a specific build you need to go to a PC builder not a PC supermarket who specialise in shifting large numbers of basic boxes rather than building to a customer's requirememts. If you want to buy a specific spec of a PC you need to visit a much smaller shop or do it online. - Try the small high street store or specialist PC builders.|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
So, I've decided I want a new computer....and while I usually build my own I haven't done that for a few computers now.
My requirements are pretty straight forward At least an intel i5. At least an Nvidia 670 At least 8-10 GB of RAM I've hit the big box retailer in the area (best buy) and a smaller shop (micro center) and it seems like no one is selling big pc's at the brick and mortar store. Most try to scrimp and put an nvidia 640 in the case, which is a good video card, but its not a 'true' gaming card. Has buying a gaming pc always been this hard to find at retail? Also, is the 640 comparable to the 670? Is this a first world problem or what? |
If their website allows you to customise your build you are looking at the right sort of site.
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
Quote:
Stores stock what they can sell. The vast majority of shopper aren't going to spend the money on a gaming PC so stores simply don't stock them. Also the technology moves to fast, new models of PCs from companies like HP come every 4-6 months, stores do not want to be stuck with "old" inventory. BestBuy does carry gaming PCs in their online store and I believe they will ship it to a BB near you but that's as close as you'll come to seeing one in a box store. Sadly it looks like the start of college has caused them to be nearly sold out of all their gaming PCs on line which are nothing more than prebuilt gaming PCs from iBuyPower and CyberPowerPC.|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
So, I've decided I want a new computer....and while I usually build my own I haven't done that for a few computers now.
My requirements are pretty straight forward At least an intel i5. At least an Nvidia 670 At least 8-10 GB of RAM I've hit the big box retailer in the area (best buy) and a smaller shop (micro center) and it seems like no one is selling big pc's at the brick and mortar store. Most try to scrimp and put an nvidia 640 in the case, which is a good video card, but its not a 'true' gaming card. Has buying a gaming pc always been this hard to find at retail? Also, is the 640 comparable to the 670? Is this a first world problem or what? |
Even upgrading a store bought PC that may have the CPU and amount of memory you desired with better graphics can be daunting. First nearly all in store PCs are built in small microATX cases (I guess so they can pack more in each cargo container) and have low end, low wattage power supplies that can do the job with what's installed but don't have the power to spare for anything more that the most low end video card.
So first you need to upgrade the power supply to something beefier. This can be a problem because most beefy power supplies are a bit "longer" than the ATX standard and because of the size of the case used, can be a problem. And since off the shelf power supplies are designed to fit into taller cases as well, their cables are longer than they need to be and bundling the excess out of the way in such a small case can be annoying.
Then there is the graphics card itself. Again this goes back to space available inside the case. You really have to crack the box open and get an understanding of how much space you have available before looking for a card. The more powerful the video card, the longer it tends to be and the cramp conditions inside the HPs, Lenovo, Gateways you find in stores may not allow for the card you want.
So you either have to hit the yellowpages (like people use phonebooks anymore) to see if any of the mom and pop PC stores in your area do custom builds or buy a pre-built iBuyPower or CyberPowerPC from NewEgg or go to those sites directly and buy/design/tweak one.
And as for your 640/670 question, no they aren't comparable. The GTX 670 is over 4x faster than the GT 640. The GTX 670 card itself costs around 4x as much as the GT 640 and can use over 100 more watts of power.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
I have to agree with Father Xmas. You're not going to be happy with anything you can get at a "big box" store. Better to go online to a web store that specializes in gaming PCs, or at least offers them in their product lineup. Companies like CyberPower and iBuyPower can get you much closer to your desired specs, and generally use better components, often giving you a number of different options in each component category.
If you'd rather deal with vendors face-to-face, a small local store can build you a custom PC, and provide localized tech support if you need it. But be sure it's one that has been around awhile (and will hopefully be around in the future), and has some expertise in gaming PCs. You wouldn't want to deal with a store that mainly sells business PCs, for example. And you'd better be prepared to pay more than you would for an equivalent PC from a web store... those mom-and-pop outfits don't have the sales volume to be able to compete on price.
Regardless of where you plan to buy from, be sure to investigate all of their component choices. If they don't state the brands, models, and specifications of every component that matters (e.g. motherboards, power supplies, etc.), you will want to ask. Sometimes these places (web or local) use brands I've never heard of, and wouldn't trust with my hard-earned dollars. Research, research, research...
Also, ask about their warranty coverage, return policies, and post-sales support options.
Hope this helps.
TargetOne
"If you two don't work this out RIGHT NOW, I'm turning this invasion around and going home!" - Emperor Cole
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
So, I've decided I want a new computer....and while I usually build my own I haven't done that for a few computers now.
My requirements are pretty straight forward At least an intel i5. At least an Nvidia 670 At least 8-10 GB of RAM I've hit the big box retailer in the area (best buy) and a smaller shop (micro center) and it seems like no one is selling big pc's at the brick and mortar store. Most try to scrimp and put an nvidia 640 in the case, which is a good video card, but its not a 'true' gaming card. Has buying a gaming pc always been this hard to find at retail? Also, is the 640 comparable to the 670? Is this a first world problem or what? |
- Hit this link
- Answer the questions
- Post them back here
That'll help give us an idea about what to suggest to you.
As to your questions:
1: The industry's idea of a "gaming PC" an gamers ideas of what a "gaming PC" are have always borne almost NO resemblance to one another other than "they're computers".
2: A 640 isn't comparable to a 670. A 640 is essentially an entry-level card. It's better than native i5/i7 on-chip graphics, but a 670 will suck the doors off it. For people playing Farmville and Solitaire, there's no difference. For people playing Arkham City, and newer, high-detail games, it's the difference between minimum settings and near-maximum settings.
3: Pretty much. I'm sure goatherds in Albania have more realistic things to worry about than the fact that their PC (should they have one at all) isn't getting 120fps in Battlefield 3.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Build it yourself or expect to pay lots for someone to build it and most likely with compromises that are not desireable like liquid CPU cooling.
|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
So, I've decided I want a new computer....and while I usually build my own I haven't done that for a few computers now.
My requirements are pretty straight forward At least an intel i5. At least an Nvidia 670 At least 8-10 GB of RAM I've hit the big box retailer in the area (best buy) and a smaller shop (micro center) and it seems like no one is selling big pc's at the brick and mortar store. Most try to scrimp and put an nvidia 640 in the case, which is a good video card, but its not a 'true' gaming card. Has buying a gaming pc always been this hard to find at retail? Also, is the 640 comparable to the 670? Is this a first world problem or what? |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
1) What will you primarily be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Gaming, running some servers for personal use (IIS, FTP, apache).
2) What's your budget? (Real Dollars) Are tax and shipping included? This is important as it allows people trying to help you to suggest things appropriate to your budget.
2000-2500
3) Where do you live? This is important as it affects what vendors you may buy from and how much shipping costs might be.
Kansas City
4) Are you planning to buy or build?
prefer to buy, I've built in the past
5) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need. If you're unsure what exactly you need, say so.
PS, CPU, case, MOBO, RAM, video card, on board audio is fine, Gig Ethernet (running cat 6), HD, Optical drive (blue ray reader, dvd writer)
6) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
Reusing logitech 5.1 speakers, apple 24 inch cinema display, mouse, keyboard (ie old system is going to be wiped and sold (or donated)with vista reinstalled on it)
7) Will you be overclocking?
prefer not to.
8) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?
Apple 24 inch cinema display (native 1920x1200)
9) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
next 2-3 months
10) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc.
USB 3.0 would be a 'nice to have' currently all of my devices are USB 2.0
11) Any specific must-have features? Must be able to max out Ultra-Mode? Must have 6+GB of RAM? Must have an SSD? etc.
8+GB of RAM (current machines is 4 years old and has 8GB of ram), I don't know if I can justify the cost of a SSD since I would need to have 2 HD's, I'm getting google fiber in the next 12 months so I'd like a GB nic, wireless N is fine until then, looking to save some money by getting an i5 as opposed to an i7
12) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to use?
Intel for the chipset, nvidia for the video card
13) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to avoid?
prefer to avoid AMD
14) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit? (Note: If your current OS came with your computer, odds are that it is NOT transferable.)
Yes, bought an OEM copy of WIndows 7 Home Premium 64 bit (computer shipped with vista)
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.
First off, sorry about the lag, the thread had dropped off my "last two days" search.
And you're one of those lucky b...people around Kansas City, KS eh?
Did I mention I hate your guts? 
Okay, I'd recommend the following for a base system reference:
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/system/Gamer_Infinity_XLC/
Tweaked ABOUT like this:
http://www.cyberpowerpc.com/saved/1EGE1W
Basically:
- i7-3770K
- 16GB RAM
- 240GB SSD (Yes, for the kind of budget you're playing with, you CAN justify getting an SSD.)
- 2GB Data Drive
- GTX 670
- DVD burner/Blu-Ray dual optical drives
- Silenced fan setup
- Sound-abatement in fan and PSU mounts as well as sound-deadening material on top and side panels.
- No OS
Shipping to you will be about $75.
So if your budget is $2K-2.5K, you've still got a buttload of money left over. If you're determined to spend the entire amount, you could go nuts with the thing.
Motherboard is GB NIC. Bumped it from the Crossfire-only base model to one that can do SLI.
If you ever plan on adding more than the 16GB of memory to this thing, think seriously about just investing in a copy of Win7 Ultimate when you purchase the rig.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Thanks for the follow up.
Actually I'm the one who let this sit fallow for a while, so your quick response was both welcome and unexpected.
I don't mind saving some money, so if I'm under budget...YAAAAY.
This is 'similar' to a system I built on ibuypower.com, though I settled for a non-K i5.
1) In this day and age is over clocking really worth it?
2) Is the performance jump from an i5 to i7 worth the hit in price?
I'm not scheduled for google fiber until Fall 2013, long after CoH will be gone....*sigh*.
I really didn't think my fiberhood would make it, so it was a happy surprise when we did.
Thanks for your help.
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.
Quote:
Let me put it this way: If you need to ask the price, you can't afford it. In this context, if you're asking if overclocking is worth it, you're obviously not a hobbyist so it's not worth it for you. I don't overclock either.|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
1) In this day and age is over clocking really worth it?
|
Quote:
| 2) Is the performance jump from an i5 to i7 worth the hit in price? |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
well given how easy it is to overclock Sandybridge and Ivybridge processors and how far you can push them - you can easily get an extra 50-70% in clockspeed from those processors for zero outlay - yes its definitely worthwhile - more and more builders are selling PCs pre overclocked and still with a full guarantee for a small additional cost - generally £20-50 extra if you don't want to do it yourself.|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
Thanks for the follow up.
1) In this day and age is over clocking really worth it? |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
Thanks for the follow up.
2) Is the performance jump from an i5 to i7 worth the hit in price? |
You say you want to run servers on the PC - whether that will affect the requirements will depend on what you are looking to serve.
Testing a small low bandwidth website when not gaming will have little impact - otoh if you want to serve up a site streaming HD video to multiple devices around the house 24/7 even whilst gaming you will probably need you to look at upgrading networking and discs - if that is the plan building a seperate server would be a better option. I suspect the plan is somewhere in between those examples. - Actually even with the first example a seperate server would be woth considering - I'd certainly look at a Raspberry Pi for that.
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
Quote:
1)|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
1) In this day and age is over clocking really worth it?
2) Is the performance jump from an i5 to i7 worth the hit in price? |
Actually yeah. While the percentages on open-air overclocks are smaller, they can still help one realize a significant bump in system performance.
Modern overclocking of these chips are astonishingly easy. And look at it not as a performance booster, but as a lifetime extender for the setup. If you're not into overclocking right now, don't. Then, a few years down the road, if you're not QUITE ready to shell out for a new system, do a small overclock to squeeze a little more performance out of the chip.
Also, the cost differential is minimal and you're nowhere near the upper limit of your budget. So why remove an option?
2)
In-game, for most of the games you're playing the performance difference between the i5 and the i7 is approximately zero. However, for some apps outside of gaming, you'll realize performance gains.
And, again, you're not even close to the lower end of your budget plans. So why deny yourself a better, more rounded system?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Adding my voice to the choir.
Quote:
There happens to be a write up on Ivy Bridge i5s yesterday at Xbit Labs. They got the i5-3570K up to 4.4GHz from it's stock 3.4GHz with minimal BIOS tweaking and no voltage changes. That said, it's temperature even with a huge $60 air cooler got to 81c (that's very warm). Non K i5s can still be overclocked by 400MHz (600MHz with Turbo Boost) which is still more than 10%.|
Originally Posted by Larcen3
1) In this day and age is over clocking really worth it?
|
Quote:
| 2) Is the performance jump from an i5 to i7 worth the hit in price. |
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
So, I've decided I want a new computer....and while I usually build my own I haven't done that for a few computers now.
My requirements are pretty straight forward
At least an intel i5.
At least an Nvidia 670
At least 8-10 GB of RAM
I've hit the big box retailer in the area (best buy) and a smaller shop (micro center) and it seems like no one is selling big pc's at the brick and mortar store. Most try to scrimp and put an nvidia 640 in the case, which is a good video card, but its not a 'true' gaming card.
Has buying a gaming pc always been this hard to find at retail?
Also, is the 640 comparable to the 670?
Is this a first world problem or what?
Proud member of the Cole-a-lition.
Fighting to make every reality, a better reality.