Willpower. Why an aggro penalty after inherent stamina?


Aett_Thorn

 

Posted

A parting mechanical question. Oddly, very few of my old line characters ever respecced for inherent Stamina. It had been a part of every build for so long that I never felt the need for three more slotless powers. A handful of characters did it, if I could see a use for it. Most didn't.

At any rate: it seems to me that inherent Stamina has made Willpower much less strikingly attractive for Tankers than it used to be. You remember I was always a fan of the set and wrote several guides for it, including one evaluating the tanker secondaries through i19 as to how well they helped Willpower tankers hold aggro.

Inherent Stamina reduced the chief advantage of Willpower, I'm afraid. If you've been here a while you know my opinion of the endurance mechanic. It made 1-20 a slog and 20+ where the game began. Now that's happily been changed, and every character has access to an +recovery power before level 20.

So what is the continuing justification of making the taunt duration in Willpower so short? The set is not so overwhelmingly strong that I think it needs such a significant penalty now.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

I don't think inherent stamina has anything to do with it.

There were complaints about the lack of duration in the past but then people insisted there wasn't a problem.

Taunt duration can assist in herding, preventing them to be messed up.

People are fine with the lack of duration as they can gauntlet more and are perfectly fine if a Shield Scrapper does most the aggroing around them.

All in all, too late now.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
So what is the continuing justification of making the taunt duration in Willpower so short?
I don't know that there ever was any justification. They just decided to make the taunt aura weaker for Willpower.

I mean, why do Shield Defense and Willpower have Fear and Confuse protection when most the other sets don't?


 

Posted

I think that the Willpower taunt aura and other Tanker inconsistencies/issues were probably going to be tackled in the near future (that is before the decision to sun set the game was made…) as Rangle questions in his this thread.

Hopefully something will happen or another company will step up and keep the game running so we can find out. Otherwise I’m afraid we’ll never know (like why doesn’t Electric Armor get “Electrical Burn”?... j/k …. Well maybe a liitle ).




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Posted

I'm with the others. There was no such justification. A lot of stuff in CoH, especially in some of the older sets (of which Willpower is sort of middling), is like it is because that's just how it was set up. Copy/paste from other powers while forgetting to change scales, typos, brain farts and just "I never gave it much thought" have all made their way into powers over the years, and some still have those stats, just because.

No one with formal knowledge of the set has ever said Willpower got a weaker taunt because it had QR.

In any case, even if that was the case, Inherent Fitness wouldn't "balance out" having QR. Willpower would still have significantly more recovery than sets with Stamina alone.

The whole thesis just seems terribly odd to me.


Blue
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Red
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Posted

In a team environment for which high settings are more understandably safer given a decent team make up the low taunt aura could encourage the intentional way of play. Willpower has higher regen with controlled/debuffed mobs around it. Players who prefer some level of aoe effect efficiency might be encouraged to allow a Willpower to achieve consolidation or else get mullered. QR does allow for greater gauntlet rate but then so can slotting of any Tanker.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
Inherent Stamina reduced the chief advantage of Willpower, I'm afraid.
Inherent Stamina only fixed the stamina issues. Truth is, you always were able to get both (Stamina and Quick Recovery) and quite a few players did.

You also can still do so.

In addition, due to the nature of regeneration, Willpower has next to no damage typing holes.

In addition, Willpower has zero holes in it's mez protectction (usually you have a fear, confuse or kb hole... or all.)

On top, regeneration becomes extremely powerfull once combined with external buffs or IO set bonuses, something that was about to become insane with Issue 24 (it was going to be rather easy to get 85ish resist to smash/lethal.)

At the end, the set's only "penalty" is it's poor taunt aura's effectiveness (as taunt aura, it still is extremely good scaling power and a decent -tohit debuff.) The set had to keep at least one penalty at the end. It's a beast of a set and time has only made it even more so.


 

Posted

One problem with the weak taunt aura is that in large scrums I'm never really sure how tough I actually am. Was I surviving the aggro? or did I even have it? My impression is that WP was not nearly as tough as Inv without tough and weave; with both of them it became comparable but never really as strong.

In the end, I played my WP tankers on my home server less; the job of being main tank for master runs and the like fell to my Inv/DM tanker, who is the toughest character I ever built. Then again, almost all of my non-WP tankers take Energy Mastery for Physical Perfection and Conserve Power. My WP tankers usually get Earth Mastery, for big AoEs.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Will power is stronger than Invuln against certain damage types... well technically against most non-sl damage types. Invuln was in luck that almost all content in the game had mainly SL, but this isn’t always the case.

It is true that overall, Willpower does not feel as tough as Invuln without pool powers, but thanks to IOs these days most players have enough endurance to run tough, weave and combat jump on top of some great defense values.

As far as taunt-aura effectiveness goes, by not inflicting damage the aura already had issues. Most non-damage taunt auras are actually rather ineffective. Most your agro tends to be captured by your PBAoE attacks, not by the taunt auras.

Other than Ice tanks with Chilling Embrace, that makes up for no damage with an extremely fast pulsing debuff that hits with 5 different debuffs per tick, some (like the movement ones) with very high magnitudes, I never rely on a taunt aura alone to grab agro.

As a personal preference, too, I would put more emphasis in Gauntlet than in improving taunt auras. If up to me, all attacks would have a gauntlet radius of 20ft. Or at least, the T1 attack would (call it Mocking Blow for those familiar with other RPGs, a weak attack that serves mostly as a taunt and potentially debuff)


 

Posted

Invuln and Shield actually have stronger aggro auras than the damage ones, to help make up for this a bit. Ice doesn't get this bonus because it has two auras. And Willpower and SR got shafted.


Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
Invuln and Shield actually have stronger aggro auras than the damage ones, to help make up for this a bit. Ice doesn't get this bonus because it has two auras. And Willpower and SR got shafted.
The effectiveness of the taunt is highly diminished if there is no damage or heavy debuffing being inflicted.

The auras you mention are 25% longer duration, but the damage provided by damage auras is much higher than that.

Chilling embrace also adds a bucketload of debuffs that all add up to the final aggro multiplier. Unfortunately we never were told the exact formula, but we have enough experimentation with Chilling Embrace to think it's either a very strong weight, or it may use base magnitude for the debuffs (each speed debuff alone is 70, and there is one for each movement type.)

Tests in the past have shown it's nearly impossible to steal aggro from an Ice tanker using Chilling Embrace.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Unfortunately we never were told the exact formula
Based on the conversation the forums had with Castle over the aggro system, I think it's very likely there's no one who is ABLE to tell us the exact formula. It's very fortunate that the style of the game meant that we never really needed to quantify aggro.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
Based on the conversation the forums had with Castle over the aggro system, I think it's very likely there's no one who is ABLE to tell us the exact formula. It's very fortunate that the style of the game meant that we never really needed to quantify aggro.
I kinda want to punch whoever came up with the whole, complex Threat mechanic right in the face. It's just too cumbersome, and should be much simpler. The fact that it's in such a huge spreadsheet I think is a major problem, even if it doesn't really matter in practice.


Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garent View Post
Based on the conversation the forums had with Castle over the aggro system, I think it's very likely there's no one who is ABLE to tell us the exact formula. It's very fortunate that the style of the game meant that we never really needed to quantify aggro.
Due to AI possibilities there may not be an exact formula. All else could be worked out by enough people who care. Taunt Duration is the biggest part. The first all Scrapper STF had its no more than 5 defeats gained by knowing something about threat mechanics. It was a first attempt and we deemed that Scrappers could Mo it if they really wanted. That was before this forum existed.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
I kinda want to punch whoever came up with the whole, complex Threat mechanic right in the face. It's just too cumbersome, and should be much simpler. The fact that it's in such a huge spreadsheet I think is a major problem, even if it doesn't really matter in practice.
Since the introduction of GR, with brutes and tankers in either side, the threat mechanics became a bit more important.

Not all brutes want to play tank, and given they do more damage than tankers, it's good to have an idea how to get aggro away from the brute (besides using taunt-the-power.)

At least that was a concern I had at first, I later realized that most brutes in game will gladly tank... Thats why I quit once GR came out and coming back nearly 2 years later depressed me a bit... no one was bashing or complaining, but no matter what class I played, if there was a brute in the team, he was the one doing the tanking.

Anyways, now Im derrailing the thread

In this game, threat per target is a bit irrelevant. Taneker or brute, they will get the aggro of whatever they hit (for damage) away from other players. The complexity of threat in this game comes on AoE threat management. Either taunt auras (that should they do no damage dont really work well... unlss they debuff like there is no tomorow) or your primary attacks.

Due to this, I always considered AoE attacks, especially early in the game, are extremely important for tankers. If this game survives, I think I would love to see tanker damage boosts to involve increased AoE capabilities via some sort of splash damage mechanic.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
Due to this, I always considered AoE attacks, especially early in the game, are extremely important for tankers. If this game survives, I think I would love to see tanker damage boosts to involve increased AoE capabilities via some sort of splash damage mechanic.
When I wrote my Willpower guide to holding aggro, the number and quality of AoE attacks was always an important consideration. Then again, I always recommended that Willpower characters get Stamina anyways: Fitness played to their strengths. But now that Fitness is inherent for Willpower too, builds I didn't like for being way too tight, like WP/DB, became a lot more feasible. It's easy now to get all the combos.

I respecced and played my Freedom WP/DB tanker last Tanker Tuesday. Picked up Tough and Weave; never had them before, and always relied on SoW if it was up. The character worked fairly well.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
When I wrote my Willpower guide to holding aggro, the number and quality of AoE attacks was always an important consideration. Then again, I always recommended that Willpower characters get Stamina anyways: Fitness played to their strengths. But now that Fitness is inherent for Willpower too, builds I didn't like for being way too tight, like WP/DB, became a lot more feasible. It's easy now to get all the combos.

I respecced and played my Freedom WP/DB tanker last Tanker Tuesday. Picked up Tough and Weave; never had them before, and always relied on SoW if it was up. The character worked fairly well.
I also have seen blasters take aggro away from invincibility so that's not just exclusive to WP, and Invuln needs at least 8 powers in the set. The T9 arguably needed for the not-so-rare situations where you are bombarded with energy/negative/fire/cold/toxic damage.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I also have seen blasters take aggro away from invincibility.
When it comes to holding aggro Invulns aura is way out of Willpowers league. You can come up with many different situations where the Blaster could of stolen aggro from any type of Tanker in Invulns league, which is just about everyother type as Damage auras can miss with the damage component. Willpowers aura is not even close to most all the others and neither is SRs.


He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
The T9 arguably needed for the not-so-rare situations where you are bombarded with energy/negative/fire/cold/toxic damage.
I have never taken Unstoppable on an Invuln tanker, and I have 3 at 50. On my Invuln brute I have it. Then again Willpower is so much of a better deal than Invuln is for brutes that I don't see all that many new ones being made.

The only thing that really gives me issues is psi, and for that all of them have the Rikti invasion accolade.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

I'm pretty sure that the weak taunt auras in Willpower and Super Reflexes are nothing more than a mistake, based on the numbers and how they are set up in the game's internal data. It looks like it's a case of accidentally using the wrong table for those two sets; because the Scale is the same as the other sets, but it uses Melee_Ones instead of Melee_InherentTaunt.

However I never succeeded in getting anyone to look at them and tell me for certain.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codewalker View Post
I'm pretty sure that the weak taunt auras in Willpower and Super Reflexes are nothing more than a mistake, based on the numbers and how they are set up in the game's internal data. It looks like it's a case of accidentally using the wrong table for those two sets; because the Scale is the same as the other sets, but it uses Melee_Ones instead of Melee_InherentTaunt.

However I never succeeded in getting anyone to look at them and tell me for certain.
I think SR is a mikstake. But the WP may have been a "mistake" that was flagged "like it". Recall Castle mentioning it was labeled as the set's weakness.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I think SR is a mikstake. But the WP may have been a "mistake" that was flagged "like it". Recall Castle mentioning it was labeled as the set's weakness.
It had ever been my understanding that WP was meant as an offense oriented set. Willpower tankers were expected to rely on attacks rather than auras to hold aggro. As such, they had more endurance than other tankers had, and a weaker aura. But inherent Stamina diminished that advantage somewhat, if it did not erase it completely.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

I've never heard that explanation before.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heraclea View Post
It had ever been my understanding that WP was meant as an offense oriented set. Willpower tankers were expected to rely on attacks rather than auras to hold aggro. As such, they had more endurance than other tankers had, and a weaker aura. But inherent Stamina diminished that advantage somewhat, if it did not erase it completely.
For all that matters anymore, given the final nail has been hammered into the coffin:

The real "intention" for willpower was an "all passives" set. There was some stuff about a purely passive set being impossible under game design balance so instead castle did a toggle set that had few toggles and the toggles it had would be offset by Quick Recovery to give the player the feel of an "all passive" set.

Willpower at the end turned a bit sturdier than he expected.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
For all that matters anymore, given the final nail has been hammered into the coffin:

The real "intention" for willpower was an "all passives" set. There was some stuff about a purely passive set being impossible under game design balance so instead castle did a toggle set that had few toggles and the toggles it had would be offset by Quick Recovery to give the player the feel of an "all passive" set.

Willpower at the end turned a bit sturdier than he expected.
This amounts to about the same thing to what I was saying. An all passive set would be expected to have a weak taunt aura, being all passive. It would have to rely on Gauntlet for aggro control. Which in essence is what Willpower does. Which is why I've always held that selecting a secondary for fast recharging AoE was always the key to traditional tanking with Willpower.

Out of the box, Willpower is not all that sturdy, either. Strength of Will is absolutely essential before Tough and Weave; though after you get those two you may as well respec out of it. And, of course, Willpower doesn't find those endurance costly pool powers as taxing as other primaries do.

My first IO project was not to collect +def bonuses. My first project was to collect +end and +recovery bonuses for Heraclea. A lot of my non-WP tankers have two or more Performance Shifter Chance for +End slotted, including the ones slotted for defense. Especially them.

The endurance mechanic still annoys after being largely ameliorated. You know I always was carping about this. This is also why I loved Willpower as well. For the first six years and more of its existence, the game showed its worst face to the new player. Endurance was the biggest QoL problem, and Stamina was what you were more or less forced to take to get around it; and after Stamina was on and SOs available the game started to get a lot more fun to play.

If players had the QoL improvements from the start that they have now, this game might have so many subscribers and be making so much money that nobody would dream of closing it.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison