Finishing Bird Costume Set?


Blackleviathan

 

Posted

So were there any plans to finish the bird costume pieces? We got a couple of heads, thanks. A few beaks, nice. We already had wings, thanks. Talons, check. But...

...feathered tails?
...feathered chest?
...feathered pants? (bonus points if they blend with the talon Monstrous legs)
...feathered arms?
...some kind of talony-glove that blended with the feathered arm?

Also "nice to have" (but not strictly necessary, though would bring birds up to par with cats):

...bird texture patterns (i.e. like the Cheetah and Jaguar spot patterms, only pick a few bird patterns). For the record I could argue wolves and bovines need their own texture patterns too.
...wing color variants: instead of strictly the "edge color" and "trailing" color we have now, add a couple other variants from the bird world

Also nice, wing emotes:

--/em wingdisplay -- wings open out straight and up at 45° angle and hold

--/em wingspread -- similar to wingdisplay only out at a 90° angle (wing edge parallel to ground)

--/em wingflap -- some variant of the "few flaps before landing" animation, just one that we can trigger while on the ground. Imagine how annoyed birds sit there and flap their wings a few times.

--/em wingpoint -- some kind of "pointing at you" with the arm AND wing pointing

--/em wingthreaten -- I can visualize in my head but hard to desribe, but it would be like /em angry only incorporate the wings

Just seems to me there are alot of emotes that would be fun to have a "winged" variant...right now the wings are kinda passive outside flying and jumping. Not complaining, the wings and all their various animations are VERY cool. I still marvel at them all these years later.

Still, wolves, cats, and bulls got their Monstrous Fur and Animal Fur, and a number of tails and animated tails. The avians seems to have gotten only half, or even less than half, their due.



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Posted

I wish.

People (myself among them-) have been asking for feathery bits for ages.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFIndustries View Post
...feathered chest?
...feathered pants? (bonus points if they blend with the talon Monstrous legs)
...feathered arms?
What do you foresee these looking as that isn't doable in-game right now?

*edit*
Also, I suggest taking this to Dink's All Things Art thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
There is no 'bird costume set.' It was part of the Beast Pack, and that's how all of the pieces went. Head, feet, some patterns here and there, and a travel power.
Yeah I knew that.

I was referring more to the idea that usually when they create pieces they create enough to make a "set" visually. For example, there are enough pieces to create a complete digitgrade-walking Wolf, Large Feline, or Bovine. All from the original Animal Pack (which I bought hours after it came out) and in some cases existing in-game pieces.

But the avian "set" is incomplete...chest, leg, arm, tail, and glove pieces are simply missing. You can fake them to a degree (Animal Fur + creative use of cat patterns; smooth + mesh pattern; etc.) but nothing as convincing for "feathers" as it should be. And simply no tail. Aweful lot of tail-less birds running around, a wonder they can fly at all. ;-p

I run alot of animal alts. Been generally happy with my big cats, wolves, and bulls. They can even be "naked" or at least males with exposed chests and little clothing. But while at least I can create avians now, they always have to be dressed-up because the chest/legs are unconvincing.

Only "convicing" avians I've made are a couple of "griffons"...but that's because a lion's torso and a bird head works in that instance. ;-p

Sorry about the mixup/abuse of terminology (i.e. "sets").



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Posted

valkyrie skirt is feathery
or use scales pattern for a smoothed down feather look


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth View Post
valkyrie skirt is feathery
or use scales pattern for a smoothed down feather look
Ideally I want an end to hacks and have a texture matching the head. Also luminosity match...even using the Animal Fur trick the luminosity is different between the fur texture and the head feather texture and some colors don't have enough subtly to make a good match. A problem shared by the Lion head, for example (Lion head has a base luminosity that is different from the Animal Fur chest).



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
What do you foresee these looking as that isn't doable in-game right now?
Not sure why you say this isn't doable. I'm not looking for literal feathers any more than we have literal fur. Just looking for a creative texture-map, which the costume designers seem to be very good at these days. They create alot of "dimensional" looks that are actually flat texture maps. That's all I'm after, nothing fancy.

Only real "trick" from a design standpoint is feather direction. The head feathers are properly point "back/down" (flowing in the flight direction). So all other matching pieces would need to share a "direction" to the feathers.

This would be most awkward for the gloves as the "feathers" would be pointed towards the wrist (if you image the "down/back" direction flowing from the neck down across the shoulders and down the arm). But like I said, I give their texture artists credit for their reativity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Also, I suggest taking this to Dink's All Things Art thread.
Done (starts here), with a link back here just to be sure. Thanks for the link.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFIndustries View Post
Ideally I want an end to hacks and have a texture matching the head. Also luminosity match...even using the Animal Fur trick the luminosity is different between the fur texture and the head feather texture and some colors don't have enough subtly to make a good match. A problem shared by the Lion head, for example (Lion head has a base luminosity that is different from the Animal Fur chest).
The term you're looking for here is 'normal mapping.' Not saying that snarkily either-- the normal maps on the Lion Head are way more high-res and visible than the animal fur ones. This is the same problem I have when trying to use the Olympian Guard Tights (the ones with the weave texture) with a Neck Cover face detail-- it just doesn't go well. It's ALSO why I can never use the Steampunk faces. Why is my face/neck so shiny and my chest so matte?


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Posted

"Normal mapping," got it. Not all Photoshop terminology makes it well to 3D rendering space. ;-p



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFIndustries View Post
Not sure why you say this isn't doable.
Because I'm not saying that. My question should read more as asking what you foresee as being in this set that you can't achieve right now. Because, yes, I get that you want feathers, but if it's just a feather texture you're after, then the basic fur texture is a decent enough substitute. You have to look at it very closely to tell to tell it's not actually feathers, and we simply don't see our characters close enough often enough for this to be noticeable.

Additionally, a bird - let's say this one:



Doesn't really display what I'd define as "feathers" when you look at them as they sit on the bird. Yes, I know what a feather looks like and I know what fur looks like, and yes, I realise they're not the same. But to be honest? They could just as easily use the same texture for anything up to plucking feathers off the bird to examine it.

That's not to say more bird bits are a mistake - far from it. But until such a time, I seriously suggest using the fur texture. It just works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

As a person who makes nothing but bird toons - webbed feet, a bird tail, couple more beak choices (a really long beak for example) and feathered arms would be wonderful! Those 4 items are difficult to replicate at present.


 

Posted

Samuel_Tow:

While the fur works at a distance, and even to a degree close-up, on a clothed bird, it doesn't on a more "naked" look (such as a bare-chested male).

I've learned a few of the "cheats" but they don't really cut it, and don't make a good blend with the head except with VERY specific colors. As Nalrok corrected me, the "normal mapping" between the feathered heads and the Animal Fur (or Monstrous Fur) does not match. You can force matches if there are proper shades of colors (use darker or lighter colors to make matches), but then that railroads you to certain colors.

(The aweful color palette in this game is a separate problem.)

You can also stick to dark colors, which don't show-off the mismatch as bad.

But a few examples I've tried (an played):

--Two parrots, to be specific, two "pirate parrots" which are colored the sterotype "Amazon parrot" colors (a medium green with lighter green or pale yellow highlights). I have them dressed in the long jackets to hide their beltline and chests so only really the bottom part of the thighs show. Animal Fur in a medium green with a paler green or pale yellow-green cheetah or leopard pattern fakes a texture well enough because the at is only 4' tall. This falls into your argument about distance viewing. But I would have preferred them to be "naked," in which case the cheats fall apart.

--One raven and basically "naked"--black with a muddy light blue and uses one of the mystic line patterns because of his backstory. Because he is so dark and the default gamma in the game is so dark, the look is very convincing (can't really see "texture" with it being all black).

--A seagul. Ended-up using "Tights" and the "mesh" texture in dark grey to break-up the flat texture of the tights. Not super convincing though, but best any of us ("Flock of Seaguls" SG) could come-up with after some experimenting. White is always tricky in this game. And again, it's only passable since our specs are for 5' tall or less. Also, being forced to use the mesh pattern means we couldn't use bicolor blend patterns on the body for a better coloration (since seaguls are typically white with grey or black).

But for another example, Polly's Revenge has a TALL form (max height) alternate look, and the methods for "faking" feather start to fall-apart when scaled-up.

So a "simple" texture map, again, is really all I'm after.

And while *you* may never look up-close at costumes, many folks do, myself included, and I suspect many RPers (coming from Virtue, that's my view into the game) may also. Not to mention the camera forces you in-close indoors all the time. ;-p

Also, as someone visual, I can assure you that "passable" and "good" are two different things. Illusion is in the subtleties you don't actively see unless you're trying too. That's why texture maps work...tricks of light and shadow trick your brain. The fur pattern on a bare chest in brighter "bird colors" in no way tricks me into seeing anything other than a bird head on a furry body. Why? On closer examination it's because the texture map does not have the pattern of light and shadow we associate with "feathers."



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MallardDuck View Post
As a person who makes nothing but bird toons - webbed feet, a bird tail, couple more beak choices (a really long beak for example) and feathered arms would be wonderful! Those 4 items are difficult to replicate at present.
Yeah I'd like more beak choices too, but didn't want to start asking for the moon and the stars (in dev terms). Duck bills and raven-like long beaks.

Though the devs might argue adding beaks is easier than new body textures, who knows?

Also be nice if they eventually let the face scalers control the animal heads more, and to let more eye auras work on the animal heads, but I assume those major technological challenges and again not pushing my luck. I fully realize not EVERYONE plays animal alts, so just trying to ask for the basics to complete an avian look.

Or more precisely, enough to complete a "naked avian" look--just asking for parity with big cats, wolves, and bulls. Kinda like we got a teaser. I honestly assumed they'd follow-up with the rest at a later date, just not THIS much later. ;-p



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Posted

ALL OF THIS YES PLEASE

i was also hoping for a sort of feathered bikini *cringes at the word bikini*... let me finish... like how the zombie outfit is sort of a tube top and mini-shorts for all models.... but with feathers... is what i'd like.



but definitely the things mentioned in the OP. as an artist, and comparing them to already existing parts, all of that is way do-able and way over-due.

<3 to dink. you can do it!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright View Post
I wish.

People (myself among them-) have been asking for feathery bits for ages.
Boo friggin' hoo... I have been asking for a head since 2005 when I created my rabbit and hare characters and still no joy.


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Posted

That really reads poorly.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rabbit View Post
Boo friggin' hoo... I have been asking for head since 2005 when I created my rabbit and hare characters and still no joy.
Yeah. I get that you want a rodent head... but how does that make our request at all invalid? The request is just as old. This OP is far from the first person to bring it up.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyStruck View Post
That really reads poorly.
Oooops, sorry, my bad. Fixed now.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright View Post
Yeah. I get that you want a rodent head... but how does that make our request at all invalid? The request is just as old. This OP is far from the first person to bring it up.
Who said it does?

And no, yours isn't just as old. The few rabbit parts (ears, tails and whiskers) that are available have been in game longer than bird parts have and there's still no heads. Bird lovers got heads and wings first and are now missing the rest of the body (although talons can make up for bird talons in a pinch). My point is I've been waiting for a rabbit head for a long time. Probably almost as long as Winky Girl has been waiting for animated hair.

Either, way both requests are valid.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CFIndustries View Post
And while *you* may never look up-close at costumes, many folks do, myself included, and I suspect many RPers (coming from Virtue, that's my view into the game) may also. Not to mention the camera forces you in-close indoors all the time. ;-p
I do spend quite a bit of time fawning over my costumes, actually. Why I say this is the City of Heroes costume creator, for as broad as it is, will always be limited. You'll always run into clipping, inappropriate textures, item theme mismatch, inexact colours and so forth. I've discarded more than a few costumes over minor details like this, but at some point you just have to let it go and work with what you have. It's either that or don't make the characters, which isn't an easy choice, I admit.

Again - all of that isn't to discourage you from requesting these pieces. Far from it - keep pushing. People will support you. Just be aware that our development team moves VERY slowly on most costume requests that need actual art time and haven't been massively popular at a player meet. You may end up having to "fake" it until the right costumes come about, or just keep the characters on hold. I'm just trying to offer alternatives, but I know what you're going through, believe me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
but at some point you just have to let it go and work with what you have. It's either that or don't make the characters, which isn't an easy choice, I admit.
Ah from that stance we can agree. No I do "let it go" when I make birds, just as when I used to make human-faced cats, or used that really cheesey old Cheetah pattern, or the really bad original tiger pattern, etc. Sometimes it is what it is, I agree.

I only started this to just get them to finish what they started. After that we can nitpick more beaks, different feet, etc. ;-p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Again - all of that isn't to discourage you from requesting these pieces. Far from it - keep pushing. People will support you. Just be aware that our development team moves VERY slowly on most costume requests that need actual art time and haven't been massively popular at a player meet. You may end up having to "fake" it until the right costumes come about, or just keep the characters on hold. I'm just trying to offer alternatives, but I know what you're going through, believe me.
Ah, see I think you may have read into it more than I intended...I'm passionate about wanting to "complete the set" as it were, but I'm not exactly in an uproar. Just happens to be my #1 gripe. I understand the need to "fake it," I've been kludging with the costume editor since Iissue 3. And yeah, sometimes you either fake it the best you can (and this is where some light RP sometimes fills the gap in presentation) or go for some other concept.

Been there, done that. Heck, do that with most every alt.

I think if I had a big gripe overall is them sometimes doing this stuff half-***ed. If you're gonna make bird pieces, make them ALL. Same for any other animal or theme. For example, they left a few cool, key pieces from the CoT set. Yet the Mecha set has seemingly everything. Yet the CoL only has female pieces (lame!), yet the Retro set has just about everything.

They are kinda dodgy about being thorough, basically. Leaves alot of people with half-baked sets and pieces, and I think they'd make folks happier if they did the right thing. Or if they are grabbing for funds, at least have the commitment to do "Animal Pack 1" followed by "Animal Pack 2" to finish it off.



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