How can we make the power armour gatling gun guy work?


Aett_Thorn

 

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Just a thought on this...

Take a Soldier. Replace Rifle with a new weapon skin (gatling gun), use the tailor to make Armor to fit. There you go!

Fits perfectly in line with what we have currently available without being a TankMage (unless you consider Soldiers TankMages).


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The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Just a thought on this...

Take a Soldier. Replace Rifle with a new weapon skin (gatling gun), use the tailor to make Armor to fit. There you go!

Fits perfectly in line with what we have currently available without being a TankMage (unless you consider Soldiers TankMages).
Softcapped on SO's at 24 with ranged damage. Sounds like a tank mage

Also Space Marine the RTS is balanced via a population cap and cost per unit. SM the shooter is just get uber to blast noobs. Basically it is a FPS not an RPG nor MMORPG. It was never meant to be balanced and since they sell wargear as DLC it certainly isn't balanced in MP.


 

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I've been mulling this over for years (and just caught up on this thread so I can post), and here's a quick rundown of what I've thought of. Please feel free to refine it or pick it apart.

The idea behind this is that most powered armor users in comics, at least the ones who are stars and who we get to see the behind-the-scenes stuff, have to redirect power to this system or that as needed. Whether it's a new AT with new unique power sets or just a mash-up of Blast/Armor or Assault Armor, here's what I suggest.

The AT has a naturally low Regen and Recovery. The idea here is that most powered armor suits require a power source that can be used up and needs to be replenished in whatever way. Now to counterbalance this, the AT has high damage (Blaster-level or slightly below), but the damage they do decreases directly as their END does. When your end is full, you do full damage, but as you attack each successive attack is doing less and less damage. This is a harsh trade-off as the AT has low Recovery to begin with.

Also, the AT has high defenses (either Tanker-level or slightly below), but, you guessed it, their resist or defense or whatever percentages decrease directly as HP decreases. Full health, full defense, low health, low defense.

The final piece of the puzzle is the inherent powers given to the AT. The idea behind the inherent powers is the aforementioned redirection of energy ("Divert all power to shields", etc.). The AT has two mutually-exclusive toggles. I don't know if it's possible to have a toggle that gives one instant benefit and then a second benefit that lasts as long as the toggle is on, but let's pretend it is. One toggle is an unenhanceable self heal that heals you when it's clicked on and also gives a sizeable +Regen boost, but also a -Recovery as well. The second is the exact opposite: immediate END boost, with +Recovery and -Regen.

So Blaster-level damage that decreases the more you attack. Tanker-level defenses that decrease the more you ARE attacked. Having to micromanage your HP and END is a pretty good tradeoff for the above, I think, and you have two toggles that let you switch between offensive and defensive modes. Could all the penalties for high damage and high defense be mitigated with IOs? Yes, but IOs let every AT do things they weren't necessarily meant to do.

Anyway, that's how I would do it. It could definitely use some fleshing out, but that's the idea for a Powered Armor AT I've had rattling around in my brain for about 7 years (although mine didn't necessarily have a gatling gun )


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I - Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, II - Fire/Energy/Fire Tank, III - Elec/Elec/Elec Blaster,
IV - Elec/Elec/Mu Brute, V - Elec/Elec/Mu Stalker, VI -Elec/Elec/Energy Tank, VII - Elec/Elec/Body Scrapper, VIII - Elec/Elec/Mu Dominator
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Originally Posted by Late2Party View Post
It was never meant to be balanced and since they sell wargear as DLC it certainly isn't balanced in MP.
They don't, actually. They sell weapon skins and cosmetic armour sets, else I would have bought it if they sold actual weapons.

To point:

The idea of having, to boil it down, two modes for offence and defence isn't bad, not at all. I believe that's what Staff Fighting and Bio Armour do, at least partially, though in their case the differences are fairly minor. If we want to make this a "night and day" choice like, say, Granite Armour is seems... Problematic. Let me explain.

The power armour gatling gun guy is meant to be played offensively. He's the siege breaker, as it were - the slow, heavy tank who might take a while to get there, but you can't stop him easily. As such, he's meant to be aggressive and doing damage, thus, be in "offensive mode." Wouldn't that, then, turn "defensive mode" into essentially "waiting mode?" Killing the character's recovery and debuffing his damage for lower endurance levels to force him into switching on a recovery toggle and basically wait for his endurance to come out seems like it would just foster a type of "stop and go" playstyle that I know a lot of people frown on.

Now, granted, my idea for self-rooting is similarly "stop and go," but there you WANT to stop so you can shoot better and you want to go find more stuff to shoot. With this iteration, it seems like we want to go AND shoot and stopping just means we can't do either. Realistically speaking, I don't want the heavy weapon power armour guy to "tank," by which I mean I don't want this character to sit idle and do nothing while he gets punched instead of his squishier team-mates. That's not the character's point. That's why I don't want to put this character in a position where he can't attack and has to wait. Because, really, what WOULD such a character do in a "no offence" mode? A Tanker or a Brute could still taunt, a Mastermind can use his henchmen, a Defender could buff, but this guy? It'd be like giving a Blaster a "defensive mode" where he can't attack - he's left with nothing to actually do.

Now, if you want to work with routing power, how about a sort of "reverse Defiance system" or an "overheat system?" I'm just spitballing ideas off the top of my head, but here goes.

Charge-Up: For every second you do nothing, you receive one stack of a damage-buffing power, up to a total of 10. When an attack is used, it deals extra damage per active stack, consuming all the stacks it has "used." Each power would have a maximum number of stacks it can consume, with larger ones having higher potential. Along with a mechanic based around repositioning, this would permit the PAGGG to play slower and spend more time doing things OTHER than attacking and still come up about even on damage output while at the same time not overpowering him in a "stand and shoot" situation.

Overcharge: Every attack used grants a stack of Overcharge that lasts for 10 seconds and goes up to a maximum of 5 stacks. When 5 stacks are reached, the character can no longer attack and must wait for a stack to expire. Every set's Build Up power also serves as a charge dump, ridding the character of all built-up charges, but this is still bound by the power's own recharge. This would serve to limit the PAGGG to short bursts of serious damage before overcharging and needing to either wait to cool off or otherwise pace attacks.

Charged Shots/Reload: Instead of Build Up, the PAGGG has a power which boosts the very next attack significantly, but takes time to execute. For weapon sets this would be reload and for non-weapon sets it could be just charged shots. Basically, if you slow down and take the time to execute this animation before every attack, you deal better damage, but do so at a slower firing rate and a higher opportunity cost. If you prefer to just blast without reloading, you can do this, too, but at a lower damage output. I've suggested this before for another powerset.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
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Interesting read so far. I'm not totally convinced there is enough wiggle room for a Ranged/Defense AT though. Not without some significant gimmick/drawback to keep Blasters relevant and that runs the risk of creating an AT locked into a narrow play-style or role.

However, the fact that as part of the Blaster upgrade several blaster powers are having their ranges increased might mean that the PAGGG could fill a gap with mostly short to medium range attacks and relatively high defense. On the other hand, melee range has been increased in recent times, especially in sets such as Staff fighting and Titan Weapons. Add in the additional ranged attacks in Sorcery and likely future Power Pools, and it looks like the design space for the PAGGG is being squeezed from both sides. In fact, a 'Power Armour' Power Pool set seems a fairly probable Tech counterpart to Sorcery.

I'm wondering if an entirely new AT is a bit of overkill to try and capture the particular 'ranged brute' playstyle you seem to be striving for, especially when existing ATs already offer a wide range of experiences, many of them coming close to the Ranged/Def AT mechanically. Why not just make 'range' the gimmick for a powerset for Brutes and Tanks (and possibly Scrappers and Stalkers also)?

Mechamorph
General Overview: This powerset represents a mech exoskeleton that has two modes - Mobile Assault and Turret Defense. It utilises the new 'conditional' tech that enables powers to have different effects, damage, effects and even animations if a certain condition is in place.

In Mobile Assault mode (which is the default) the powers revolve mostly around short range, powerful self-targeted cone or pbaoe attacks that don't require a target. This reflects the mech's relatively poor aim which in motion and adds an element of tactical movement to maximise the effectiveness of your attacks. Think 'spray and pray' gatling gun, flamethrower, etc. Power animations include modular 'pop-up' weapons from arms or shoulders (think the 'bloom-launcher' from Nature Affinity as an example). These powers do NOT accept Ranged enhancements or sets.

Turret Defense is an interruptible toggle (don't know if these are possible?) with a relatively long animation that transforms the character into an immobile turret with longer-range (still shorter than Blasters) single-target attacks (rail gun, thermal lance, missile, etc.) and strong damage/mez resistance. The drawback of Turrent Defense mode is that it drops most other toggles, leaving the character vulnerable if they want to go back into Mobile Assault mode.


 

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Originally Posted by GreyScribe View Post
I'm wondering if an entirely new AT is a bit of overkill to try and capture the particular 'ranged brute' playstyle you seem to be striving for, especially when existing ATs already offer a wide range of experiences, many of them coming close to the Ranged/Def AT mechanically. Why not just make 'range' the gimmick for a powerset for Brutes and Tanks (and possibly Scrappers and Stalkers also)?
Because "range" in itself isn't really the point. There are several powersets that simply do not exist on anything that's not squishy and aren't replicable in any way, shape or form. I'm referring to Assault Rifle, Dual Pistols, Archery and Beam Rifle. You can kind of cheat Energy Blast with Energy Melee and Dark Blast with Dark Melee and so forth, but there's no "Rifle Melee," nor would it make sense if there were. Certain things just can't be used in melee and still retain the reason why they're cool in the first place.

What I'm trying to achieve with the PAGGG (damn that's a stupid acronym, sorry about that) isn't so much just a Scrapper with more range or a Blaster who doesn't die as much. I'm trying to achieve an AT that offers a whole host of ranged sets, firearms and hand-blasts alike, to a basic framework which isn't squishy. The trouble with most Blast/Defence hybrids as people suggest them is that they're basically the worst of both worlds - squishy AND not very damaging, which kind of misses the point. I know a Tanker with Blaster damage is ludicrous, I'll admit that right off the bat. I also realise that self-rooting is quite concept-limiting. But I still want to see an AT that is both able to not constantly worry about dying AND have the ability to use ranged powers and firearms.

Yes, this will need to be based around a gimmick, absolutely. I don't know if I want this to be the "slow/rooting" gimmick. I don't even know if I want this to be just one gimmick for the whole AT, or if we'll just have to design each set with its own quirks. I just know that I want someone who can take a hit AND fire a rifle without having to wait for level 50 and spend eleventy billion INF and a zillion hours grinding iTrials to achieve it. I don't know how that might be achieved, I just know that I want all Blast sets to be available to this AT. It's not just the PAGGG I'm talking about here. That's a big thing, but it's not the only one. I have a number of other characters who'd make sense to be like this.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Party_Kake View Post
Frankly I'm not seeing a reason why it couldn't work.

main powerset:
ranged damage.
secondary powerset:
armor.
Have you met me? Give me any armor for blasters instead of the secondaries available. In about 2 hours in Mids I will hand you back my Tank Mage. Seriously. Pick any armour set in the game, give me Blaster sets and I can guarantee I can layer that kind of mitigation. I will sit smack dab in the middle of spawns and use PBAoE and Damage auras to melt everything. I will back up 25 feet from AVs and Giant Monsters and be the best fire support a Tank ever had. I will pair with a few other like minded Tank Mages to melt AVs and Giant Monsters. After all, overlapping leadership toggles would make a killing network of Tank Mages.

This game is way to exploitable by a class with a Blaster Primary and a Armour secondary.

Signed, Someone who has desperately wanted a Blaster Primary and Armour secondary for 5 years.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
So, if you were making a power armour gatling gun guy, how would you make him?
I've come to the opinion that game developers are all doing it wrong. All game systems these days are built to define what a character can do. How they *should* be built is to define what a character *can't* do.

I've fiddled with my own game system just for fun. I'd define five categories, spread out on a pentagon arrangement. Probably something like: Defense, Melee, Ranged Offense, Support, and Utility. String those in a circle. Allow characters to have one category as a primary, a second *adjacent* category as a secondary, and a third category anywhere as a tertiary powerset.

So you could have:
Defense/Melee/Support (Tanker)
Ranged/Melee/Utility (Blaster)
Utility/Support/Ranged (Controller)
Melee/Defense/Utility (Scrappers)
etc.

But you could also have:
Defense/Melee/Ranged (your Power Armor with Gun guy)
Support/Utility/Melee (A melee defender type)
etc.

But you could *not* have:
Ranged/Defense/x
Melee/Support/x
etc.

...because those are not adjacent on the pentagon.

(Incidentally, this system gets more complicated -- and more exciting -- when I apply it to fantasy game systems, with the categories as Armor, Weapons, Stealth, Magic, and Support. The above description is just to emulate CoX.)

Archetypes should not be delineated by what they can do, in my opinion. They should be bounded by what they cannot do. Tankers should not have ranged attacks or pets -- but let them do everything else. Blasters should not have defense or self-heals. Power armor should have everything except Support and Utility powers. Since Support contains healing and Utility contains crowd control and endurance management, I think the archetype would be balanced. With no way to heal itself and no end management powers, it would be a powerful archetype that could not sustain itself in long combats.

TL/DR: I'd let people build tank mages by stripping away their ability to have any Support or Utility powers, and their ranged powers would be the weakest part of the archetype. Balance archetypes by forbidding core mechanics to them but allow freedom in the mechanics they do possess.


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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion View Post
Have you met me? Give me any armor for blasters instead of the secondaries available. In about 2 hours in Mids I will hand you back my Tank Mage. Seriously. Pick any armour set in the game, give me Blaster sets and I can guarantee I can layer that kind of mitigation.
Let me ask you, can you make a viable character out of Super Reflexes primary and Fire Blast secondary? I pair those two sets because they have no support or utility powers in them. I'd have to insist that you also take no heals from pool powers.

I think a SR/FB tankmage character would be balanced. Powerful in quick bursts, but in the long run he's gonna take hits and go down.


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But I still want to see an AT that is both able to not constantly worry about dying AND have the ability to use ranged powers and firearms.
Thing is, I could see a Ranged!Tank working: Armour primary, ranged attack secondary, with relatively low modifiers. That probably wouldn't be that different from Melee!Tank really.

Say... Tanker damage, between brute and tanker defences.

You'd still be able to blast stuff: It would just take you a while, and you wouldn't die easily.

It's when you start giving serious armour to a ranged DPS class that you get into issues. (crabs and forts have protection, but they have some serious holes)


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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd View Post
Let me ask you, can you make a viable character out of Super Reflexes primary and Fire Blast secondary? I pair those two sets because they have no support or utility powers in them. I'd have to insist that you also take no heals from pool powers.

I think a SR/FB tankmage character would be balanced. Powerful in quick bursts, but in the long run he's gonna take hits and go down.
Hmm, honestly I stay away from SR for armour. Having said that YES. Of course I could. I spent a few months earlier in the year with ranged softcapped Blasters. Surprisingly hardy little beasts. Give me SR And I could cap all 3 positions, have some resists, MEZ Protection, and Blaster damage. Sure, I have to "play smart" (I would prefer Invulnerability, of course) But If you gave me this I would have the obscene Blaster I always wanted. Talk to the Devs for me will you?


 

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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd View Post
Let me ask you, can you make a viable character out of Super Reflexes primary and Fire Blast secondary? I pair those two sets because they have no support or utility powers in them. I'd have to insist that you also take no heals from pool powers.
I know by far my most successful Blaster was Fire/Fire/Flame with both Blazing Aura and Hot Feet skipped, but that's because this was the only combo I could find that let me kill stuff before they killed me. I don't disagree with your assessment, though - robbing an AT of any utility and crowd control is a pretty big thing. The real trouble is I'm trying to think of something that will use existing sets, and a LOT of Blast sets have utility built into them. I have some glimmer of hope of this happening if we can just port a ton of sets over, but if brand new ones have to be made, that hope goes to nil.

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Originally Posted by Arilou View Post
Thing is, I could see a Ranged!Tank working: Armour primary, ranged attack secondary, with relatively low modifiers. That probably wouldn't be that different from Melee!Tank really. Say... Tanker damage, between brute and tanker defences.
That actually is something I could go with, strangely enough. I actually would be sold on a PAGGG that isn't instantly the most lethal thing on the battlefield, but who has staying power enough to deliver what damage he can. My big beef with Blasters, for instance, is that while they have a lot of damage in potential, they lack the survivability to actually deliver it, and that's a problem. I would, however, be willing to accept lower damage for greater survivability to where I can deliver all of it without needing a team, even if "all of it" isn't as much.

Why I say this needs a "gimmick" is I actually think Brutes were balanced quite well. On base stats, they're significantly weaker but slightly sturdier Scrappers. In actual practice, they're pretty potent combatants thanks to Fury. I suspect we can get away with something like this for the PAGGG, where the character is defensively relatively solid but offensively relatively below-average, with some kind of situationally-dependent gimmick allowing him to catch up on damage to some extent.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.