Invuln Vs Willpower: Fire/Elements.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-07-30 08:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Great data and test you did there. I don't know you have been talking to, but I always hear that invulnerability is stronger than willpower with the caveat of considering solely s/l type damage. If people know anything about the two, they should know that willpower handles exotic (I consider exotic to be mainly psi and toxic since they are both uncommon) type damage with more ease than invulnerability without question.
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"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
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I have never heard it, ever, that I can remember, and I've been active in a LOT of "Compare WP to INV" threads.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I hear the statement often: Willpower is nowhere near as strong as Invuln. This comment seems to be stated as universal truth.
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What I have heard (and said myself) is that they are roughly comparable overall (not specifically vs any subset of damage) and that I give a slight edge to invulnerability in some situations (very heavy alpha strikes and defense debuffs).
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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It's been poping up regularly in the Bio thread in test (yes that thread has been all over the place.)|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I have never heard it, ever, that I can remember, and I've been active in a LOT of "Compare WP to INV" threads.
What I have heard (and said myself) is that they are roughly comparable overall (not specifically vs any subset of damage) and that I give a slight edge to invulnerability in some situations (very heavy alpha strikes and defense debuffs). |
The video shows the difference is rather drastic, though.
We are not talking about one damge type, though, but 6 out of 8.
An interesting video, and one that definitely disproves the "Invuln is always better" crowd, but the final word is a bit misleading. With no secondary power pools the Invuln wasn't softcapped (which is trivial on a tanker), and as Dechs points out being able to hit the softcap makes a world of difference. WP also has no DDR, nor does it have any defense against end drain or -recovery except to recover faster. These things are very noticeable in more general settings.
Ultimately, both Invulnerability and Willpower are great sets. Neither is in real need of buffs at the moment, both are popular and neither are drastically underperforming. This video just proves that each is better at different scenarios.
An Invuln character would to have more than ~240% recovery in the first place for 25% recovery debuff resistance to ever be better than Quick Recovery (and then only when facing at least ~240% of recovery debuffs, but not so much debuff that it floors your recovery through the resistance). I haven't found 25% resistance to make much of a difference against direct endurance drains, either, and Willpower has a pretty significant head start on endurance in the first place.
But yeah, both sets are clearly good in their own ways; I'd never encountered anyone claiming Invulnerability was at all better than Willpower, certainly not by a wide margin, until the Bio Armor thread (and saw precious little evidence to support it in there). I certainly haven't observed either being significantly more or less durable overall after playing two Invs and three WPs to 50.
Invuln is better against a broader group of enemies than Willpower in my observations. In some cases performance is similar...in others willpower has a slight edge...(psi damage)...However, invuln handles debuffs better, softcaps more easily to more types of damage, has a stronger taunt aura, and avoids CDF better than WP. Recovery is a major advantage of WP.
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I haven't ever heard that statement before now. |
Originally Posted by Starsman
I hear the statement often: Willpower is nowhere near as strong as Invuln. This comment seems to be stated as universal truth. It is true bout Smash and Lethal. But I was very curious about the rest.
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It's also very wrong.
Both are strong sets, that get a lot stronger with a careful build plan and IO investment.
Both have areas where they out shine the other, though, and both have holes. Some of the holes can be patched via the above mentioned careful IO build, to varying degrees. Both end up very good to a wide variety of situations, but, they still won't be identical in all situations, but they will stay comparable to each other overall, assuming roughly equal investment in both.
Kudos to you for trying to prove the point, though. I love to see bad information debunked.
Well done!
In a game where the powersets vary fairly widely in performance, it's interesting to me that Invulnerability and Willpower are as closely matched as they are, considering the different approaches each takes to getting there.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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That's true. Willpower does have a sizable qualitative advantage in Quick Recovery, though.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
In a game where the powersets vary fairly widely in performance, it's interesting to me that Invulnerability and Willpower are as closely matched as they are, considering the different approaches each takes to getting there.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Nice work on the video, btw, Starsman.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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So you honestly think Invuln needs to be buffed?
The video was fun, but after watching it I saw a lot of advantage for the Invuln. Oh sure, standing around doing nothing lets the high regen of WP work well and of course works against the much lower regen Invuln has. But that is a non-real scenario. Too bad you didn't use a WP tanker, you likely would have had to stop at some point and declare him unkillable.
High regen is very good in a mission environment in order to facilitate moving from spawn to spawn quickly, but even there Willpower has a strong limiter, as its regen rate isn't nearly so high most of the time since it needs to be powered by enemies.
The Invuln was missed a great deal more. Although there was also likely a fair amount of lethal (and maybe some smashing) damage as well, which should favor the Invuln. A shame you didn't show the sm/le stats and the damage taken log (maybe the to-hit log as well). It might be interesting to see how both fare against higher than +1s as well.
Just because a non-real scenario can be constructed in such a way as to emphasize Willpower's advantages over Invuln does not mean that Invuln's only real advantage is its capability to take extreme advantage of a pool power: Tough. I also do not think I'd describe Invuln tankers as having scrapper level performance against non-Sm/Le damage and I certainly do not think your video demonstrates that in any way.
I miss my 66% resistance to Fire/Cold/Nrg/Neg too (on my scrapper). I use Unstoppable when I want that again. I do not think it is likely Invuln will be buffed, but I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts on it.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I can't speak for Starsman, but in my view Invuln neither needs nor will receive a significant buff any time soon. Even if we stipulate that Willpower is better (given its comparable survivability and its recovery advantage), complaining about Invuln's state relative to WP would be akin to complaining that your Ferarri isn't as good as a Bughatti.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
So you honestly think Invuln needs to be buffed?
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| The video was fun, but after watching it I saw a lot of advantage for the Invuln. Oh sure, standing around doing nothing lets the high regen of WP work well and of course works against the much lower regen Invuln has. |
10 HP/sec + 90% resistance = 100 HP/sec, to use an oversimplified example.
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| Just because a non-real scenario can be constructed in such a way as to emphasize Willpower's advantages over Invuln does not mean that Invuln's only real advantage is its capability to take extreme advantage of a pool power: Tough. I also do not think I'd describe Invuln tankers as having scrapper level performance against non-Sm/Le damage and I certainly do not think your video demonstrates that in any way. |
That said, Willpower has a smoother performance curve. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise with a straight face. Starsman's scenario may be contrived, but it's an adequate analogy for a principle we all (should) understand intuitively. Invuln's strength is that it has higher peak performance against the most common attack/damage types in the game, which are coincidentally also the hardest hitting, typically. Invuln also has DEF-debuff resistance.
Then again, WP theoretically has more leeway to supplement its defenses (offset debuffs) with Luck inspirations. Quick Recovery appears to be the tie breaker in the comparison.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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A tanker to tanker vid is coming and I think will be very interesting. But I would not have declared him un-killable, I would just have upped the challenge until he was killable and then push the Invuln through the same challenge. Thats coming once I pit no-pool Invuln Tanker against No pool willpower Tamker vs. Smashing damage.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
So you honestly think Invuln needs to be buffed?
The video was fun, but after watching it I saw a lot of advantage for the Invuln. Oh sure, standing around doing nothing lets the high regen of WP work well and of course works against the much lower regen Invuln has. But that is a non-real scenario. Too bad you didn't use a WP tanker, you likely would have had to stop at some point and declare him unkillable. |
The only fake aspect of this test is that there are no fire only groups out there. But today, Invuln can be eaten alive by the new banished pantheon due to its near complete lack of smash/lethal.
Do I think Invuln needs buffing? Hard to say. There are some issues in play. My next video will explain better but Invuln on its own is not that strong against Smashing/Lethal. The thing is, Invuln can take the best advantage out of Tough. It's not Invuln that's too strong, its Tough.
That gets compounded with too much content being Smash/Lethal heavy, but thats a content issue that may be changing (Pretoria is rather well mixed in damage types, and so is the new Dark Astoria.) Have to see how far they take this in the future. But thats a reason to ponder if Invuln "deserves a buff".
Big question: Invuln tanks are meant to tank. How are they meant to do so with so low elemental/energy performance?
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| High regen is very good in a mission environment in order to facilitate moving from spawn to spawn quickly, but even there Willpower has a strong limiter, as its regen rate isn't nearly so high most of the time since it needs to be powered by enemies. |
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| The Invuln was missed a great deal more. Although there was also likely a fair amount of lethal (and maybe some smashing) damage as well, which should favor the Invuln. A shame you didn't show the sm/le stats and the damage taken log (maybe the to-hit log as well). |
Fire Sword (37.8% Lethal and used very often not counting the bonus Fire DoT)
Char (no damage)
Fire Ball (22% Smashing not counting the bonus Fire DoT)
Consume (bit of fire damage)
Flares (pure fire damage)
In retrospect: I wish the test had been even more pure Fire damage. This actually means Invuln would have performed even worse against a real pure fire test.
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| It might be interesting to see how both fare against higher than +1s as well. |
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| Just because a non-real scenario can be constructed in such a way as to emphasize Willpower's advantages over Invuln does not mean that Invuln's only real advantage is its capability to take extreme advantage of a pool power: Tough. |
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| I also do not think I'd describe Invuln tankers as having scrapper level performance against non-Sm/Le damage and I certainly do not think your video demonstrates that in any way. |
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| I miss my 66% resistance to Fire/Cold/Nrg/Neg too (on my scrapper). I use Unstoppable when I want that again. I do not think it is likely Invuln will be buffed, but I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts on it. |
If I had full control of the game, there is two things I would do: one, Tough would be heavily "altered". It would provide minimal S/L resistance and make up for it with granting an HP bonus. For most people this would be a buff, for all but Invuln.
Then I would review every single enemy group and make sure every group has a significant amount of elemental or energy damage.
At this point, Invuln would be tweakable in a fair way.
This, though, is likely too much work. Wont stop me from making this case.
Both sets are mostly fine as-is.
The only place where Invuln is truly and qualitatively superior is the aggro aura.
The way WP's aggro aura is set up, it can be tough to hold aggro at times.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Eh I think they are both fine. However, lot of people seem to be pushing WP's regen aside and saying the QR is the breaker? That just seems confusing. WP has great HP (if not the best), Regen with that HP, Okay Resistance, and Okay Defense.
While the test was done with SOs -- I think WP is more capable than Invuln once you get to the IO Sets and once again that's just what I think and have experienced. You can cap HP passively, soft cap the defenses, and have the great regen and recov. I know my WP tanker has over 80hps out of combat which more than doubles in combat.
I'm not saying Invuln isn't "tanky", as it definitely is and I do like it, but WP just feels more capable.
Issue 24 PPM Calculator // The Great Makeover: The Vindicators
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Thanks.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Nice work on the video, btw, Starsman.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Don't understand this point. The idea was to track sustainable survivability. Regeneration is only part of that equation, neither favoring the Invuln nor the WP in principle. The reason the Invuln loses in Starsman's test is not that WP has higher regeneration per se; the reason Invuln loses is that the combination of Invuln's regeneration, resistance, and defense amounts to less than the WP's combination of the same traits.
10 HP/sec + 90% resistance = 100 HP/sec, to use an oversimplified example. |
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| It is a contrived scenario. Frankly I think fire damage is very nearly irrelevant in CoH PvE; certainly I've never believed (as seemingly most of the Tanker forum does) that Invuln Tankers should build to soft-cap F/C DEF (with one foe in range of Invincibility). Given the distribution of attacks you're likely to face (and the attendant effects that are packaged with those attacks), Psionic attackers are a far bigger threat. Energy/Negative attackers too. |
1) Was easier to find critters in the wild that had heavy fire
2) Cold was also easy but debuffs Dull Pain recharge (may be meaningless, didnt have time to use it twice anyways.)
3) I did not want to create AE enemies because I would be accused even further of "fakeness".
4) AE enemies are also usually way stronger than the regular critters
5) Both sets (WP and Invuln) have identical mitigation against Fire, Cold, Energy and Negative. So testing one is almost the same as testing all (you may make the case that Cold survivability should be either stronger in sets with clicks or come with equally strong -Recharge resistance)
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| Then again, WP theoretically has more leeway to supplement its defenses (offset debuffs) with Luck inspirations. Quick Recovery appears to be the tie breaker in the comparison. |
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Based purely off numbers (and something I'll try to test tonight)|
Originally Posted by Arkyaeon
While the test was done with SOs -- I think WP is more capable than Invuln once you get to the IO Sets and once again that's just what I think and have experienced.
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Willpower is better against S/L without pools, and pure SOs.
Invuln is WAY better against S/L with Poools, and pure SOs.
Willpower becomes so much better with Pools and IOs (S/L softcapped) that he challenges Granite.
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Have to read the fine print at the end of the video.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
I can't speak for Starsman, but in my view Invuln neither needs nor will receive a significant buff any time soon. Even if we stipulate that Willpower is better (given its comparable survivability and its recovery advantage), complaining about Invuln's state relative to WP would be akin to complaining that your Ferarri isn't as good as a Bughatti.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Don't understand this point. The idea was to track sustainable survivability. Regeneration is only part of that equation, neither favoring the Invuln nor the WP in principle. The reason the Invuln loses in Starsman's test is not that WP has higher regeneration per se; the reason Invuln loses is that the combination of Invuln's regeneration, resistance, and defense amounts to less than the WP's combination of the same traits.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
That said, Willpower has a smoother performance curve. I don't think anyone can argue otherwise with a straight face. Starsman's scenario may be contrived, but it's an adequate analogy for a principle we all (should) understand intuitively. Invuln's strength is that it has higher peak performance against the most common attack/damage types in the game, which are coincidentally also the hardest hitting, typically. Invuln also has DEF-debuff resistance.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Then again, WP theoretically has more leeway to supplement its defenses (offset debuffs) with Luck inspirations. Quick Recovery appears to be the tie breaker in the comparison.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Yeah, I see where you were coming from. Really, my comment about Fire/Cold DEF pertains solely to IO build strategies; it isn't worth building for F/C DEF because so many F/C attacks are also typed as S/L for the purpose of opposing DEF, and because F/C attacks don't generally carry DEF debuffs, as Lethal/Energy attacks have a tendency to do. (And because if you're building for significant IO DEF otherwise, chances are Invincie will cap you against F/C with a handful of foes in range whether you explicitly build for it or not.)|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Sorry for the redundancy, but just to make sure: I picked fire because:
1) Was easier to find critters in the wild that had heavy fire 2) Cold was also easy but debuffs Dull Pain recharge (may be meaningless, didnt have time to use it twice anyways.) 3) I did not want to create AE enemies because I would be accused even further of "fakeness". 4) AE enemies are also usually way stronger than the regular critters 5) Both sets (WP and Invuln) have identical mitigation against Fire, Cold, Energy and Negative. So testing one is almost the same as testing all (you may make the case that Cold survivability should be either stronger in sets with clicks or come with equally strong -Recharge resistance) |
All of that is scarcely relevant to your test, which only measured each set's stand-alone survivability against a hat-picked exotic damage type. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it.
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| This is another Issue I have with Invuln, but not one I'm going in deep right now. But going over it quick: Invuln has to take 8 powers to have it's survivability. Willpower has to take 6. You would expect a power with no utilities would either be simply stronger or just needs to be given such utilities. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Honestly, just not a really realistic scenario. Pool power choices shore up deliberate holes in the various primaries/secondaries. Going "no pools" is like saying "I'm going rowing...with no oars".|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Thats coming once I pit no-pool Invuln Tanker against No pool willpower Tamker vs. Smashing damage.
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| The only fake aspect of this test is that there are no fire only groups out there. But today, Invuln can be eaten alive by the new banished pantheon due to its near complete lack of smash/lethal. |
Can you restate this more clearly?
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| My next video will explain better but Invuln on its own is not that strong against Smashing/Lethal. |
WP has higher defense vs E/N/F/C/Psi. But, depending on mob size (3+ enemies) Inv will generally be hit less often.
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| The thing is, Invuln can take the best advantage out of Tough. It's not Invuln that's too strong, its Tough. |
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| That gets compounded with too much content being Smash/Lethal heavy, but thats a content issue that may be changing (Pretoria is rather well mixed in damage types, and so is the new Dark Astoria.) Have to see how far they take this in the future. But thats a reason to ponder if Invuln "deserves a buff". |
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| Big question: Invuln tanks are meant to tank. How are they meant to do so with so low elemental/energy performance? |
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| Invuln is similar, a lot of its survivability insane lot, is based off Invincibility and powered by enemies. I actually had to herd enemies in the AE with invulnerable mode turned on because the casters were killing my Invuln while herding them with their flares. |
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| In retrospect: I wish the test had been even more pure Fire damage. This actually means Invuln would have performed even worse against a real pure fire test. |
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| I tested various combinations. Higher levels, higher count, etc. In all tests Invuln died faster. |
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| I don't think Invuln will be buffing without a properly built case. Even with a case, it may not happen just due to the abuse of Smash/Lethal in the content plus the existence of Tough. If I was a dev I would also keep in mind Invuln can cap S/L thanks to that one pool power. |
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| If I had full control of the game, there is two things I would do: one, Tough would be heavily "altered". It would provide minimal S/L resistance and make up for it with granting an HP bonus. For most people this would be a buff, for all but Invuln. |
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| Then I would review every single enemy group and make sure every group has a significant amount of elemental or energy damage. |
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| At this point, Invuln would be tweakable in a fair way. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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If it's helpful, I have a level 50 willpower tank with no accolades that I can volunteer.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
And I can't just copy my live characters because accolades mess up with performance testing.
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Depends on the particulars. What's your definition of "shorter fight" in this context? How much regeneration versus how much RES/DEF are we discussing? You can't say that a longer fight always favors regeneration. The problem with statements like yours is that they sound reasonable in the abstract, but when you really look at the scenarios that would support those statements, they sometimes turn out to be preposterously impractical.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Indeed, I am a big fan of the immortality line and believe that type of look has a very strong correlation with general play. But I also try not to underweight the value of preventative mitigation. Longer fights almost always favor regen. So while the test does demonstrate all three methods of mitigation combined, it does so in a way that emphasizes the benefit of regeneration (and for a variety of reasons undervalues Defense).
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For example, we had a long long debate on the Scrapper forum a year or two ago in which someone argued that there are scenarios in which 5% DEF (in isolation, that is, without stacking it on other DEF) is numerically superior to 50 HP/sec regen. But in order to justify that statement, you must construct a scenario in which both hypothetical characters are totally screwed regardless. In other words, there must be so much damage coming in, so quickly that the advantage for the DEF character is effectively moot.
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| I think WP does have a smoother curve, especially over a whole mission. But in individual fights, you can often count on Invuln's health to move slower, which has qualitative benefits for human reaction times. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Interesting. I have run my WP tanker against the DA content and cam eout feeling very strong (need Ageless to shed those debuffs sometimes though). I have not yet tried it on any of my Invulns.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
The only fake aspect of this test is that there are no fire only groups out there. But today, Invuln can be eaten alive by the new banished pantheon due to its near complete lack of smash/lethal.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Do I think Invuln needs buffing? Hard to say. There are some issues in play. My next video will explain better but Invuln on its own is not that strong against Smashing/Lethal. The thing is, Invuln can take the best advantage out of Tough. It's not Invuln that's too strong, its Tough.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
Big question: Invuln tanks are meant to tank. How are they meant to do so with so low elemental/energy performance?
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Then again, WP theoretically has more leeway to supplement its defenses (offset debuffs) with Luck inspirations.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
This is another Issue I have with Invuln, but not one I'm going in deep right now. But going over it quick: Invuln has to take 8 powers to have it's survivability. Willpower has to take 6. You would expect a power with no utilities would either be simply stronger or just needs to be given such utilities.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Oh I have a lvl 40. I meant to run a SR test.
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Originally Posted by Garent
If it's helpful, I have a level 50 willpower tank with no accolades that I can volunteer.
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Edit: darn i wish I was able to rename my threads!!! I meant "Invuln Vs Willpower: Energies/Elements"
I hear the statement often: Willpower is nowhere near as strong as Invuln. This comment seems to be stated as universal truth. It is true bout Smash and Lethal. But I was very curious about the rest.
After looking at some data, I figured a real test was in order. I ran a "contest" between Willpower and Invuln, both facing pure a pure fire damage encounter.
Here is the video of the challenge in question. It lasts 8 minutes.
You can see and decide for yourself if this is a valid test.
Any questions or doubts about any aspect of the test will be appreciating it, I'll try to comment on anything. You can skip through the video to the result points (don't remember the times to jump to right now and can’t actually view the vid from work) but it may be better to actually see the whole thing through.
Although the test is only using fire, both sets have pretty much identical stats against Fire, Cold, Negative and Energy damage types. Willpower has much better performance than Invuln against Toxic and Psionic.