Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Horse cap. The term "soft cap" is well-established in every subforum, and in this forum we have indeed touched on the actual hard cap in discussions, so the difference matters.
|
There is nothing wrong with saying soft cap. My point is that when OP said "def cap" everyone knew exactly that he meant soft cap. Even the guy with the sig ranting about how he already knows that everyone saying "cap" is talking about the "soft cap." He knows, every time. Everyone always does, because it is the only relevant cap. Sure, you can put together a special team to hit the actual cap, but that is such a rare thing for people to even care about that you would need to specify that you are going for the "hard cap."
If there is a build that can hit the hard cap solo, I am not aware of it. Why would anyone EVER need to clarify that they aren't trying to hit the impossible cap? That is what I call horse caps or something.
Quote:
If your playstyle revolves around "must have as much DEF as possible no matter what AT/powerset you play" then please feel free to play that way. I wasn't trying to tell you what you should do to enjoy playing this game the way you want. The point I was trying to make is that while certain AT/powersets are fundamentally based around maximizing DEF/RES to make them work the best Controllers are one of the few ATs in the game that are structured around defending themselves in ways that DON'T involve pure DEF or RES at all. As I said before properly built Controllers practically never even get ATTACKED in the first place - they effectively have no need of DEF/RES enhancement at all.|
Originally Posted by King_Moloch
It seems like a lot of people don't understand or don't agree with my playstyle, and that's fine, the way I play this game is unique to me I suppose, but as a general rule, I don't play non softcapped toons of any kind. My TW/Regen brute, my rad/fire blaster, my all psionics blaster, same deal. I've found over the last seven years that it saves me loads of frustration and irritation to just start out with the damned softcap and refine the build from there. Also, this will be the second controller I've made in all these years, their lack of defenses and protections has steered me well clear of them.
Since I got back, I've been trying all the things I've avoided over the years, trying to expand my playstyle to include other things. One of the standards for me is the softcap. That's not likely to change. So, even on a controller, if the toon can't meet the minimum requirements for playability for me, then I don't invest in it at all. From what I'm reading, and have been reading over the last few days, controllers don't necessarily have to reach that benchmark. That's fine. But in order for me to play them, they do. |
Sure while it's possible (as UnicyclePeon has shown) to Frankenstein a Controller towards a DEF cap it's basically the literal MMO equivalent of pounding a square peg into a round hole. It's like trying to make a D&D Magic User fight all of his opponents with a +5 vorpal dagger - sure it might be fun to try but ultimately you'd be better off running a Fighter instead because the Magic User was never designed to be the best at melee combat. Apples meet Oranges.
As you yourself pointed out perhaps playing a Controller is not really going to mesh well with the way you like to play. No big deal - nothing says that you have to like every AT in the game. Again I'm not going to tell you attempting to have a max-DEFed Controller is impossible. But I -will- tell you that your max-DEFed Controller will NEVER be as effective as a Controller that is built to fully maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses.
Basically if you want to have the most fun with a Controller you have to unlearn what you probably first learned with your Scrappers, Brutes and/or Tankers. Controllers do not defend themselves with DEF/RES - they defend themselves with their Mezzes and buff/debuffs.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
You're free to play as you like... but you really should consider that softcapped defenses might... JUST MIGHT... be completely unnecessary for a specific type of character because of how the archetype or power sets play. Ultimately you're denying yourself the opportunity to play various types of characters by setting this requirement that they must meet even if that requirement doesn't do much to actually help the character. I know that sounds like blasphemy considering how much of a hard on players seem to have for soft capped s/l/e but it really is true for some archetypes and power set combos. |
Originally Posted by King_Moloch
It seems like a lot of people don't understand or don't agree with my playstyle, and that's fine, the way I play this game is unique to me I suppose, but as a general rule, I don't play non softcapped toons of any kind. My TW/Regen brute, my rad/fire blaster, my all psionics blaster, same deal. I've found over the last seven years that it saves me loads of frustration and irritation to just start out with the damned softcap and refine the build from there. Also, this will be the second controller I've made in all these years, their lack of defenses and protections has steered me well clear of them.
Since I got back, I've been trying all the things I've avoided over the years, trying to expand my playstyle to include other things. One of the standards for me is the softcap. That's not likely to change. So, even on a controller, if the toon can't meet the minimum requirements for playability for me, then I don't invest in it at all. From what I'm reading, and have been reading over the last few days, controllers don't necessarily have to reach that benchmark. That's fine. But in order for me to play them, they do. |
What good is your soft capped defenses if the mobs never get to attack you in the first place because they are stunned/held/flopping in bonfire?
What's it worth to have soft capped defenses when you've debuffed the mobs to-hit into the ground so that it's equivalent to having softcapped defenses without any defense at all?
Consider that radiation infection when properly slotted is the equivalent to about 39% defense to EVERYTHING. Add the two 3% defense IO's to that and you're basically softcapped so long as mobs are kept in the debuff.
Consider that you can use defense inspirations when dealing with a particularly tough alpha so you can lay down your controls/debuffs or hell just stealth into the pack and let your pets take the alpha while you lockdown/debuff the whole friggin mess.
Consider that you won't start out softcapped with ANY character. It takes leveling time and considerable IO investment to soft cap most characters and if you can play them to that point then that means you are capable of playing them without soft capped defenses.
I honestly feel sorry for anyone who limits their play style by such a requirement.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
Quote:
Yes, currently, when people say cap, it generally safe to assume they mean the soft cap. But have you never seen some one say 'resistance soft cap'. This shows they do not understand the difference between a cap and a soft cap. The only way for clear and concise communication is for people to use terms correctly. As is commonly stated, when you assume, it makes an A.S.S out of U and ME. |
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
There is nothing wrong with saying soft cap. My point is that when OP said "def cap" everyone knew exactly that he meant soft cap. Even the guy with the sig ranting about how he already knows that everyone saying "cap" is talking about the "soft cap." He knows, every time. Everyone always does, because it is the only relevant cap. Sure, you can put together a special team to hit the actual cap, but that is such a rare thing for people to even care about that you would need to specify that you are going for the "hard cap."
If there is a build that can hit the hard cap solo, I am not aware of it. Why would anyone EVER need to clarify that they aren't trying to hit the impossible cap? That is what I call horse caps or something. |
Same with people saying 'que' instead of 'queue'. Can most people understand what they are trying to say? Probably. However the word QUEUE is not the same as the word QUE. The word Queue is in the dictionary, and is properly defined, so use it.
If the insistence of using proper words falls out of fashion, then we will all have 'gone to the Americans'. Use of the proper word in the proper place is what keeps us able to communicate succinctly. We might understand what they mean now, however if everyone stops using soft-cap, then no one will understand if they are talking about the real cap or the artificial one, (which is not always 45% mind you).
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
I'm going to respectfully disagree with some of the previous posters about "well-played controllers" not needing defenses. While I don't feel the need for it on any of my other trollers, I think fire/ is the exception.
I quit playing my fire/rad for quite some time because I was always getting mezzed. On my other trollers, not an issue, but with fire alone, it was (had the same issue on the fire/kin, too). Flashfire is wonderful, but it doesn't hit absolutely every mob in every spawn, every single time. When I could layer that with the AoE hold, that's fine, but that hold just isn't up fast enough to use often enough on a fast-moving team. So hot feet or choking cloud would annoy something somewhere, and I'd get held. Often enough that it just wasn't much fun to play.
First, I tried soft-capping the fire/kin with s/l defense, which was expensive and slightly gimpy. Then decided to try ranged cap on the fire/rad, and found (to my surprise) the ranged defense worked just as well, and has the added bonus that it isn't terribly expensive, or gimpy (I later respecced the fire/kin to ranged defense cap, too). It's a lot more fun to play now.
It's not terribly hard to do - most of the controller-ish set bonuses offer either a high recharge set option, or one with ranged defense. UnicyclePeon has a lovely build, and you can play around with Lockdown, BotZ, Numina, Stupify, Thunderstrikes (for fire cages as well as fire blast), and the controller ATO to your hearts content. Add Steadfast proc, weave, maneuvers and combat jumping, and you're pretty set.
I work at a nuclear safety agency. Admittedly, the consequences are more severe, but I'm aware of what can happen when people use technical terms imprecisely. 
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I'd love to know what does the aforementioned well-played controller without defenses do to take on a solo +4/x8 arachnos mission at any kind of decent speed.
As, you know, this is something I can do on my poorly built controller who dares to use defense as a primary mitigation tool; and since obviously that makes me a terrible player, I have no doubt people here should be able to top what I can do.
Not everyone *has* to run or does run +4/x8. Hell, my fully kitted-out SS/Inv brute (with 42% DEF to s/l without anyone in Invincibility) only runs +1/x8, because it's challenging enough to be fun without taking FOREVER to kill a mob with only one AoE.
Difficulty sliders are there for a reason. If you want quick farming, turn it down. If you want a challenge, crank it to what you can handle. I love controllers because you *don't* have to build exclusively for defense to survive a challenging encounter. Are you being mezzed? Mez them first! Send your pet(s) in to take the alpha! These strategies are not new.
As for the "+4/x8" Arachnos mission...*shrug* I just wouldn't do it, because I'm not a masochist.
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
|
So you can't reach the same performance level I can, yet I'm the one "doing it wrong".
I'm not saying anyone has to run +4/x8 arachnos. It's just a random benchmark point for performance. You could pick a lower setting, but it wouldn't prove the statement that "properly built Controllers practically never even get ATTACKED in the first place - they effectively have no need of DEF/RES enhancement at all", as a positive result could just as well mean you stopped raising the difficulty too soon to see a need for defense or resistance.
Likewise, you can go through most of the solo content with Brawl alone, no powers, no enhancements, on -1/x1. That doesn't mean there isn't any use for better powers or enhancements at all.
Now if anyone wanted to spin the original argument into "for most people", "for normal playing", or whatever, I could agree with that sentiment.
(Perhaps. I think I'd still argue against it as you can build for optimal mezzes and then stack def on top, and obviously A + B > A; but I wouldn't argue as vehemently.)
The original thoughts expressed in this thread are clearly that defense and resistance aren't needed, period, though; and for those claims to be true they have to hold true at the highest levels of performance.
Never said you were "doing it wrong."
You seem to say that *not* building a controller for ranged defense is "doing it wrong," because that build can't take on a +4/x8 Arachnos mission with "any kind of decent speed."
Guess what? That difficulty setting, that enemy group choice, are completely optional! You don't get any kind of pat on the back for playing like a blaster or corruptor at +4/x8. Sure, the "XP is better," but is it really? Back to my SS/Inv brute, I go at only +1/x8 because it's *faster.*
It's not that building to a controller's strengths (i.e., control) is "can't reach the same performance level I can." It's not an arbitrary limit, it's a choice. I choose to build a controller who controls and doesn't worry so much about the occasional attack that gets through. Playstyle's a choice. SOFTCAPALLERMEHGERD is *not* "winning the game." It's a choice, completely optional, that makes game challenges easier at a significant time/influence/potential real money cost to the player.
(For reference, my 2 level 50 controllers are Fire/Storm/Fire and Dark/Dark/Soul)
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
|
Quote:
No, I am certainly not, and I am not interested in a semantic argument. Just because I object to a purity argument doesn't mean I take the opposite position, much like I can, i.e., oppose gay bashing without saying heterosexuals should be ostracized.| You seem to say that *not* building a controller for ranged defense is "doing it wrong," |
There has been statements made controllers shouldn't be built for defense or resistance. Either these statements can be proven, or it's just hogwash and pancakes.
Right, we may have a crisis of miscommunication. When it comes to either building for defense through IOs or not, it's a choice. Whether you base it on the powersets, the archetype, or I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO SOFTCAP EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME ALWAYS, it's the player's choice, and it's a choice I'm glad I'm able to make.
Put it this way: I feel there is less need, if any, to base a controller's build around ranged defense (or any defense, for that matter.) If someone feels there is a need, and if building that way negatively impacts the controller's ability to do its job, then that builder should accept that limitation. If it doesn't limit something, then congratulations, you've won the game.
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
|
Quote:
This I can certainly agree with.
| Put it this way: I feel there is less need, if any, to base a controller's build around ranged defense (or any defense, for that matter.) |
ERMAHGERD, did we just politely and succinctly come to an agreement on the forums?
*applause* Yay rationality!
Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
|
Quote:
I agree that getting mezzed is a big problem for a Fire/Rad. Both Choking Cloud and Hot Feet get turned off even if you immediately pop a break free, it still takes a few seconds for HF and CC to recharge.|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
I'm going to respectfully disagree with some of the previous posters about "well-played controllers" not needing defenses. While I don't feel the need for it on any of my other trollers, I think fire/ is the exception.
I quit playing my fire/rad for quite some time because I was always getting mezzed. On my other trollers, not an issue, but with fire alone, it was (had the same issue on the fire/kin, too). Flashfire is wonderful, but it doesn't hit absolutely every mob in every spawn, every single time. When I could layer that with the AoE hold, that's fine, but that hold just isn't up fast enough to use often enough on a fast-moving team. So hot feet or choking cloud would annoy something somewhere, and I'd get held. Often enough that it just wasn't much fun to play. First, I tried soft-capping the fire/kin with s/l defense, which was expensive and slightly gimpy. Then decided to try ranged cap on the fire/rad, and found (to my surprise) the ranged defense worked just as well, and has the added bonus that it isn't terribly expensive, or gimpy (I later respecced the fire/kin to ranged defense cap, too). It's a lot more fun to play now. It's not terribly hard to do - most of the controller-ish set bonuses offer either a high recharge set option, or one with ranged defense. UnicyclePeon has a lovely build, and you can play around with Lockdown, BotZ, Numina, Stupify, Thunderstrikes (for fire cages as well as fire blast), and the controller ATO to your hearts content. Add Steadfast proc, weave, maneuvers and combat jumping, and you're pretty set. |
I took care of the problem of getting mezzed long before IO sets became available by using Indomidible Will from the Psi pool. It is difficult to get perma . . . so I usually saved it until I was just about to run into battle. The Psi Pool also gave me Mind Over Body and Psi Tornado. Now, of course, you can get the Clarion power in the Destiny slot for mez protection.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
To me there is a difference between when someone uses a slang term in a game that everyone understands, and when someone says something completely wrong like "resistance soft cap." One term makes sense and is understandable, one term is not. |
Originally Posted by _Pine_
Yes, currently, when people say cap, it generally safe to assume they mean the soft cap. But have you never seen some one say 'resistance soft cap'. This shows they do not understand the difference between a cap and a soft cap. The only way for clear and concise communication is for people to use terms correctly. As is commonly stated, when you assume, it makes an A.S.S out of U and ME.
Same with people saying 'que' instead of 'queue'. Can most people understand what they are trying to say? Probably. However the word QUEUE is not the same as the word QUE. The word Queue is in the dictionary, and is properly defined, so use it. If the insistence of using proper words falls out of fashion, then we will all have 'gone to the Americans'. Use of the proper word in the proper place is what keeps us able to communicate succinctly. We might understand what they mean now, however if everyone stops using soft-cap, then no one will understand if they are talking about the real cap or the artificial one, (which is not always 45% mind you). |
Really though if someone says they want to cap defense on their /rad controller and you take that to mean hard cap, you will not get them to the hard cap. It just wont happen without a major change to the game. At best you are going to get them to the soft cap and tell them that is all you can do.
The only time the term will cause problems is when someone actually wants to get to the hard cap. Until this thread, I didn't even know that people went for it so I will admit that the difference is slightly more relevant than I originally thought.
Quote:
I agree that slang has no place in a nuclear safety agency |
Originally Posted by Sailboat
I work at a nuclear safety agency. Admittedly, the consequences are more severe, but I'm aware of what can happen when people use technical terms imprecisely.
|
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control