So with Crashless Nukes and Insta Snipes...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-11 16:33 in Defenders
Quote:
145seconds base recharge for PBAoE nukes. ~170-180ish for target AoEs (Thuderous Blast and Probably Blizzard).|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Good point, the secondary effects can definitely be the best part of the deal, for certain secondaries, provided they go unchanged.
The proposed recharge is 90s, right? That'd give a 25 feet PBAoE -20% res to Sonic that'd up every spawn or two after slotting. Wow. It would also make Atomic Blast a better AoE hold than controllers' dedicated, no damage AoE holds. Seems too good to stay that way, honestly. |
I'm curious how Blizzard is going to be handled. It currently deals 9.12 pet scale damage, which is about 1.65times the "Average" damage from Nova on a Blaster. If Nova is dropping to 4scale, then for Blizzard to maintain it's relative damage it would get dropped to ~7.425 pet scale (for Blasters). I get the feeling that it'll get reduced a good deal further than that though.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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If we're talking about Defender nukes specifically, and we're talking about the conventional crashing nukes with damage equal to Nova, Nova only *reliably* kills even con minions at level 50 with 397% damage strength, which is essentially the damage cap for Defenders.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
You might be right. I had no problems with the crashing variety, between that it did wipe out minions reliable (of course, I slot it, and use Aim or BU, or an AOE buff/debuff first, and reds, etc), but a ~30% reduction in starting damage will hurt. Of course, I have a lot of practice on recovering from a nuke, too, which apparently not everyone bothered with much. And, I tended to use us when a fight started to slip away, not as an opening salvo, thus most things were already damaged, but....
I'm not saying that things might not get better, but I'm just not yet sold on losing more of the damage punch. If you were at blaster scale damage already, maybe you can afford to lose some punch in exchange for the repeat usage value, but I'm not sure defenders can. I guess all I can do is wait till it hits beta and test it. Too bad, as I had been planning a respec with a crashing nuke in mind, but now I'll prolly hold off till I can see how the new crashless variety plays before committing to my new build. If it's bad, I may omit it, if it's a lot better, I may want it earlier in the build so I can use it exemplared further down. |
Also, where are you getting this 30% number from? I24 nova-like nukes are going to *average* doing about 18% less damage. That's on average. 50% of the time (because Nova has bonus damage that doesn't always trigger) it will do 11% less. 37.5% of the time it will do 33% less. 12.5% of the time it will do 33% *more* damage.
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My opinion now with no testing is that the recharge is going to need to be increased and certain nukes will need to be addressed.
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Seems too good to stay that way, honestly.
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So something else just occurred to me in regard to crashless nukes. I generally don't take Aim on my Defenders since they tend to be pretty tight for powers and I don't find it that useful on them. However with the change of procs to PPM in I24 the Gaussian: Chance for Build Up proc should have a 90% chance to proc in Aim (ok, the one in the store technically already has that but I refuse to buy those on principal).
That turns Aim for Defenders into a 130% damage buff most of the time which might actually be worth taking, especially when combined with a crashless nuke.
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Hmmmmmmmmmm... I also generally skip Aim on Defenders.... but that is interesting.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So something else just occurred to me in regard to crashing nukes. I generally don't take Aim on my Defenders since they tend to be pretty tight for powers and I don't find it that useful on them. However with the change of procs to PPM in I24 the Gaussian: Chance for Build Up proc should have a 90% chance to proc in Build Up (ok, the one in the store technically already has that but I refuse to buy those on principal).
That turns Aim for Defenders into a 130% damage buff most of the time which might actually be worth taking, especially when combined with a crashless nuke. |
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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I'm wondering if we might end up seeing a general reduction in the secondary effects for nukes. Possibly along the lines of reducing the duration to 10seconds and changing mez effects to chance to mez (similar to Overcharge).
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Originally Posted by Garent
My opinion now with no testing is that the recharge is going to need to be increased and certain nukes will need to be addressed.
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Not my Blizzard!
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
145seconds base recharge for PBAoE nukes. ~170-180ish for target AoEs (Thuderous Blast and Probably Blizzard).
I'm curious how Blizzard is going to be handled. It currently deals 9.12 pet scale damage, which is about 1.65times the "Average" damage from Nova on a Blaster. If Nova is dropping to 4scale, then for Blizzard to maintain it's relative damage it would get dropped to ~7.425 pet scale (for Blasters). I get the feeling that it'll get reduced a good deal further than that though. |
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Its possible, but I wouldn't assume this is likely. People are comparing these effects to things like controller AoE holds, but that's not a valid comparison. Those AoE mezzes are very long duration in part because they are one power among many mezzes in control sets. The control in the nukes is just one control, and under *normal* slotting it will be up only about once every minute or so. A more reasonable question to ask is how do nukes compare to other powersets that have exceptional tier 9s. Those would be:|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I'm wondering if we might end up seeing a general reduction in the secondary effects for nukes. Possibly along the lines of reducing the duration to 10seconds and changing mez effects to chance to mez (similar to Overcharge).
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1. Defensive overdrives; i.e. Elude
2. Controller/Dominator pets
3. Buff/Debuff tier 9s (aka: Heat Loss, Fulcrum Shift)
Is Atomic Blast an exceptional power when you put it in the same bag with Elude, Fulcrum Shift, and Fire Imps? In my opinion, its not.
This question is likely to be more relevant, because it cuts to the question of just how powerful should ranged attack sets be, and what's the ceiling on their most powerful attack. Compared to the set of all buff/debuff tier 9s, defensive tier 9s, and control set pets, Atomic Blast doesn't actually seem all that exceptional to me personally.
Lets compare the mez in Atomic Blast to the mez in another Defender tier 9: EMP. Atomic Blast has an unslottable 15s mag 3 hold. EMP has a slottable 22 second mag 3 hold with a 50% chance to hold mag 4. Even when you factor in the longer recharge for EMP than I24 Atomic Blast, EMP has a much stronger hold with much higher aggregate uptime.
The devs may decide the point to the mezzes and debuffs was to offset the crash, and without the crash those secondary effects are now too high. But I don't see a specific reason why that is a mandatory decision.
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The one balancing factor with EMP is that it nukes your recovery for a while, and rads are notoriously heavy on end, what with RI and EF being high consumption toggles *and* passive once you've anchored them, leaving you room to attack at full speed. EMP doesn't do damage either, except to some robots. Despite these limitations it's already a fairly strong power, but if it also did its damage to any kind of target and no -recovery I think you'd have to be insane to skip it (even if the -regen was nuked).
As an aside, there's no need to "people" me because as has been pointed out I made several incorrect assumptions, recharge being 90 instead of 145 and the ability to slot for hold which isn't possible. Given these corrections it doesn't seem as whacky. 
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I wasn't actually speaking specifically about Nova. In fact, I'm specifically not speaking about Nova, as I just don't play energy blast as a set at all. Specifically, I was speaking about Rads t9, and sonics t9.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If we're talking about Defender nukes specifically, and we're talking about the conventional crashing nukes with damage equal to Nova, Nova only *reliably* kills even con minions at level 50 with 397% damage strength, which is essentially the damage cap for Defenders.
Also, where are you getting this 30% number from? I24 nova-like nukes are going to *average* doing about 18% less damage. That's on average. 50% of the time (because Nova has bonus damage that doesn't always trigger) it will do 11% less. 37.5% of the time it will do 33% less. 12.5% of the time it will do 33% *more* damage. |
Also, when you say, "*reliably* kills even con minions at level 50 with 397% damage strength, which is essentially the damage cap for Defenders," I assume you're specifically talking about undamaged, undebuffed, even con enemeies, which I tried to specifically state wasn't what I was talking about. I can assure you, I don't need to be at the def damage cap to reliably kill damaged, res debuffed even con enemies..
I tried to indicate that the 30% number was an approximation. Or, most honestly, as best a guess I could make based on several factors, my lazy quick and dirty math in my head, based on my recollection of the numbers I'd recalled seeing in a write up of the proposed changes. I'll admit my recall may be off, my rough math almost certainly is, and perhaps my source wasn't even trustworthy, since I saw a write-up of the chat, and didn't listen to it myself. If 18% less damage on average is more the case, than that does reassure me some. However, it'll be much more reassured based on how it ends up playing, and I'll reserve judgement on that till I play it. But I do have less concern about it now. Thanks.
As an aside, since as I said, Energy Blast isn't a personally concern of mine at all, except as an illustration of example for what to expect for sets I do actually play, is this inconsistent damage you report for Nova, is this how other sets t9s work, too? Currently? Or is this how it will work in future? I'm not totally following this, so if you'd not mind a bit of clarification, I'd appreciate it.
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If you're counting resist debuffed, or already damaged mobs then I believe that the damage difference from i23 nukes and 124nukes actually goes even farther down, since more of the high end i23 value is being wasted as overkill.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I wasn't actually speaking specifically about Nova. In fact, I'm specifically not speaking about Nova, as I just don't play energy blast as a set at all. Specifically, I was speaking about Rads t9, and sonics t9.
Also, when you say, "*reliably* kills even con minions at level 50 with 397% damage strength, which is essentially the damage cap for Defenders," I assume you're specifically talking about undamaged, undebuffed, even con enemeies, which I tried to specifically state wasn't what I was talking about. I can assure you, I don't need to be at the def damage cap to reliably kill damaged, res debuffed even con enemies.. I tried to indicate that the 30% number was an approximation. Or, most honestly, as best a guess I could make based on several factors, my lazy quick and dirty math in my head, based on my recollection of the numbers I'd recalled seeing in a write up of the proposed changes. I'll admit my recall may be off, my rough math almost certainly is, and perhaps my source wasn't even trustworthy, since I saw a write-up of the chat, and didn't listen to it myself. If 18% less damage on average is more the case, than that does reassure me some. However, it'll be much more reassured based on how it ends up playing, and I'll reserve judgement on that till I play it. But I do have less concern about it now. Thanks. As an aside, since as I said, Energy Blast isn't a personally concern of mine at all, except as an illustration of example for what to expect for sets I do actually play, is this inconsistent damage you report for Nova, is this how other sets t9s work, too? Currently? Or is this how it will work in future? I'm not totally following this, so if you'd not mind a bit of clarification, I'd appreciate it. |
Dreadful Wail (Sonic t9) deals the same damage as Nova. Interestingly, Atomic Blast on a Defender deals higher scale damage than on a Blaster. Blaster Atomic Blast is the same 4.875scale as Nova(and friends) where on a Defender it deals ~5.49scale for some reason.
Nova is just used as a reference point, since it is for all intents and purposes "The Standard Nuke." Currently the majority of crashing nukes use the same "Guaranteed 3.0scale +75%chance 1.5scale +50%chance 1.5scale."
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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I didn't say Nova, I said "conventional crashing nukes with damage equal to Nova." Which are Blackstar, Nova, Psychic Wail, and Dreadful Wail. I also meant Atomic Blast, but that was before I realized that power is bugged. Its apparently dealing some of its PvP damage in PvE.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I wasn't actually speaking specifically about Nova. In fact, I'm specifically not speaking about Nova, as I just don't play energy blast as a set at all. Specifically, I was speaking about Rads t9, and sonics t9.
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| Also, when you say, "*reliably* kills even con minions at level 50 with 397% damage strength, which is essentially the damage cap for Defenders," I assume you're specifically talking about undamaged, undebuffed, even con enemeies, which I tried to specifically state wasn't what I was talking about. I can assure you, I don't need to be at the def damage cap to reliably kill damaged, res debuffed even con enemies.. |
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The changes to my Emp/Psi are rather extreme, and dare I say it - exciting.
I've switched things around with Fortitude - slotting for ToHit now, which means that any Blaster touched by the red-head will have +28% to hit.
The only downside is that my attack chain is now Will Dom-Psi Lance-TK Blast leaving me 0.73 seconds wait time in-between to buff . It's a perfect world really, because it means my single target damage might now be slightly better than laughable when soloing, and the AoE potential of Scream+Wail is also very nice. The (indirect) buffing of Fortitude to make it more valuable is some very nice icing.
I'll be a happy camper if things go the way they look like they'll be going. If there's a look at some of the more redundant Empath powers (CM, Rez and the over-abundance of "heals") as part of other i24 fixes, I'll be ecstatic!
-H
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This surprises me, you didn't have it slotted for Defense, Recharge, and ToHit?!|
Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
The changes to my Emp/Psi are rather extreme, and dare I say it - exciting.
I've switched things around with Fortitude - slotting for ToHit now, which means that any Blaster touched by the red-head will have +28% to hit.... |
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Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
I'll be a happy camper if things go the way they look like they'll be going. If there's a look at some of the more redundant Empath powers (CM, Rez and the over-abundance of "heals") as part of other i24 fixes, I'll be ecstatic! -H |
Dreaded Wail hits things freakin' hard.. i like to hit things freakin' hard... so.. id go Wail... SAVE THE WAILS!!!! - Solar_Lunata
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Membrane Exposures FTW!
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Originally Posted by SonicRemedy
This surprises me, you didn't have it slotted for Defense, Recharge, and ToHit?!
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On the other Hand, I would not like to see the absorb mechanic get slapped on older sets in any way. Its a cool new feature, that is fine on new things, but lets not go crazy and over-do it.|
Originally Posted by SonicRemedy
This, so much this. I would love too see some kind of secondary effect added to the heals. Like a small absorb shield, slotting would be easier, or even some Psi resistance added to CM as long as the Mez Protection can still stack.
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Empathy does need something, but I would prefer that they address the fact that only 3 powers are useful solo. All three powers are Dynamite!, but just not enough.
Before Time Manipulation, I would have been against a PBAoE version of Fortitude, and actually was lobbying for a PBAoE Clear Mind. But now.... Fortitude does not seem all that outrageous next to Farsight, which is perma-able AND nearly as good. So, my current belief is PBAoE Fortitude plus a slight reduction in the recharge of the Auras and Empathy is fixed.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Fo Sho! *Free Frame High Five*|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Membrane Exposures FTW!
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Originally Posted by Biospark
On the other Hand, I would not like to see the absorb mechanic get slapped on older sets in any way. Its a cool new feature, that is fine on new things, but lets not go crazy and over-do it.
Empathy does need something, but I would prefer that they address the fact that only 3 powers are useful solo. All three powers are Dynamite!, but just not enough. Before Time Manipulation, I would have been against a PBAoE version of Fortitude, and actually was lobbying for a PBAoE Clear Mind. But now.... Fortitude does not seem all that outrageous next to Farsight, which is perma-able AND nearly as good. So, my current belief is PBAoE Fortitude plus a slight reduction in the recharge of the Auras and Empathy is fixed. |
Now, I am no numbers expert but what are your feelings on if fort were to be a pbaoe power? What would you make the defender base for it. (I know this is sidetracked from the OP and if you all like we can make another thread for this.)
Dreaded Wail hits things freakin' hard.. i like to hit things freakin' hard... so.. id go Wail... SAVE THE WAILS!!!! - Solar_Lunata
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This would also help with the fact that Empathy is a set where the main damage mitigation (Fortitude) is single target in a game which is focusing more on multiple-team content.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Before Time Manipulation, I would have been against a PBAoE version of Fortitude, and actually was lobbying for a PBAoE Clear Mind. But now.... Fortitude does not seem all that outrageous next to Farsight, which is perma-able AND nearly as good. So, my current belief is PBAoE Fortitude plus a slight reduction in the recharge of the Auras and Empathy is fixed.
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'aint no recharge in Membranes. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Membrane Exposures FTW!
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-H
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Dude... Membrane is Defese, ToHit, Recharge....
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Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
'aint no recharge in Membranes.
-H |
Dreaded Wail hits things freakin' hard.. i like to hit things freakin' hard... so.. id go Wail... SAVE THE WAILS!!!! - Solar_Lunata
Bah... flippancy never works.
I meant no global recharge.
My Def's nuke was awesome before and it'll be awesomer still, even without that extra damage. Now that -To Hit will matter. Of course, I was at damage Cap from FS so...
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Because Fortitude has 3 bonuses to Farsight's 2, I would say that the effect should be around 2/3rds of its current effect. Maybe 10% Defense, 10% ToHit, 15% Damage (for a defender). The auras should be perma with approx 300% recharge at their current values (360 sec recharge) and "non-stackable". These numbers would still have decent team effect, but make solo-ing much more satisfying from 1-50.|
Originally Posted by SonicRemedy
ith the new ATO version. The PBAoE Fort sounds nice, I really enjoy that idea. Also like the idea of the Aura's recharge reduction under the guise that they cannot stack. However, I don't know if getting both would be fair. I mean, on my own I get sooo much regen and recover with the RA's. Now, mix that with a PBAoE Fort (24% def and 29% roughly) and OMG! Not that I am ever against getting more power but... well.. OHMYGOD THE POWAH!!!! Sadly, there would have to be some reduction in effect to one or the other me thinks.
Now, I am no numbers expert but what are your feelings on if fort were to be a pbaoe power? What would you make the defender base for it. (I know this is sidetracked from the OP and if you all like we can make another thread for this.) |
EDIT : Actually, the more I think about it, the +Dmg in Fort could remain as is, since Defenders are a low damage AT. 18% is not really that great, and does much more when applied to a teammate.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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That's why I use four slots (in Farsight which is pretty much the same slotting-wise): 3 x Membranes and 1 x LotG 7.5% IO |
Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
Bah... flippancy never works.
I meant no global recharge. |
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I'm not saying that things might not get better, but I'm just not yet sold on losing more of the damage punch. If you were at blaster scale damage already, maybe you can afford to lose some punch in exchange for the repeat usage value, but I'm not sure defenders can. I guess all I can do is wait till it hits beta and test it.
Too bad, as I had been planning a respec with a crashing nuke in mind, but now I'll prolly hold off till I can see how the new crashless variety plays before committing to my new build. If it's bad, I may omit it, if it's a lot better, I may want it earlier in the build so I can use it exemplared further down.