The new Brute ATO is worthless -- Looks like its time for round 2
I agree that the proc is bad and should be changed, but is there a reason this is in the Brute forum, where the people who need to see it are almost guaranteed to not see it, rather than the Beta forums, where it would be more appropriate and also more likely to reach the intended audience...?
Edit: Nevermind, I see you also posted in the feedback thread.
I agree with -resist...that makes much more sense...
They took out the recharge bonus too??
The resists bonus I actually don't mind in slot 6 bonus, but, there are some changes I would make...
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
-20% resist would be kinda ridiculously good, I think. That's twice as much as the original version that they apparently thought was too good and had to change. I think either a smaller resist debuff or a totally different effect would be the best approach.
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Disagree PVP proc has it, the ach heel has it. TW can slot AH in CB.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
-20% resist would be kinda ridiculously good, I think. That's twice as much as the original version that they apparently thought was too good and had to change. I think either a smaller resist debuff or a totally different effect would be the best approach.
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And those procs are extremely good despite being unable to stack and having static 20% proc chances and NOT being specifically available to only a single AT. And, again, it had half that much -res and was apparently changed during development because that was too much. I'd rather see a straight damage proc, or a self tohit buff, or an endurance discount buff, or something.
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Pylon test a TW with the AH proc vs one with a mako bite lethal proc. the difference is minimal. The brute ATO proc is not 100% uptime.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
And those procs are extremely good despite being unable to stack and having static 20% proc chances and NOT being specifically available to only a single AT.
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If your character does 200 DPS, an Achilles' Heel proc effectively adds 200*10*.2 = 400 damage over its duration (roughly speaking; the exact attack chain may affect this since you're not just dealing one tick of 200 every second) when it goes off.
Mako's Bite adds 71 damage when it goes off.
The difference in total Pylon kill time or total DPS may be small, but that's because it's one enhancement. The total difference between a Mako's or Achilles' proc and an empty enhancement slot is pretty small, too.
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I don't know if you're aware of this, but Achilles' Heel is having its chance to proc nerfed pretty hard in i24 when they shift over to PPM format. I understand it'll be down to 2 PPM or some such, with the clear intent to lower its over-time impact to group DPS. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Disagree PVP proc has it, the ach heel has it. TW can slot AH in CB.
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I'd prefer to see the Brute pick up something unique for Brutes and yes, I agree that something defensive would be ideal. I wonder what would be suited for Brutes - maybe a passive Resist/Regen bonus based on the level of Fury?
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The store-bought Achilles Heel proc on beta currently is 3 PPM. With the i24 changes that will be 3.75 PPM. So as long as the attack has a cycle time (counting slotted recharge) of at least 3.2 seconds, the proc will be at least as good as it is now. A few powers that are currently favorites for the proc (Gambler's Cut, Neutrino Bolt) will lose out a little with that, but in most other powers the proc will be better than it currently is.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
I don't know if you're aware of this, but Achilles' Heel is having its chance to proc nerfed pretty hard in i24 when they shift over to PPM format. I understand it'll be down to 2 PPM or some such, with the clear intent to lower its over-time impact to group DPS.
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Still, since the proc did -10% res when we originally saw it and was changed to not have any, I strongly suspect that -20% res is not an option that will even be considered.
Is it possible that the mechanic of the -Def portion of this upcoming proc is of the Grant Power variety and therefore, like Tanker Bruising, cannot be Resisted? Would that then make the proposed Proc worthwhile?
Jak
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Tanker bruising is not unresistable. If it was, it would destroy raids like Hamidon. No player has access to a power in the game that is unresistable nor will they ever. It breaks the game.|
Originally Posted by JakHammer
Is it possible that the mechanic of the -Def portion of this upcoming proc is of the Grant Power variety and therefore, like Tanker Bruising, cannot be Resisted? Would that then make the proposed Proc worthwhile?
Jak |
Arcanaville can chime in as to why but it won't ever happen.
I think the reason the -resists are considered OP by the Devs was that AH and PVP procs can only be slotted into select powers and not any power in an AT's primary set...
Think about it...6 slot this set in Rend Armor for TW or Follow Through for that matter...it would be absurd to have 2 such procs in that attack chain, pylon times would be cut down dramatically.
I agree it's a good fit in the ATO set, but I think 20% may be a bit overkill to go into any power...
I would take 10%...think about that...AH proc+PVP proc+ATO proc+reactive interface=insanity that's a combined 70% of -res debuff...that's a nasty thought...
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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AFAIRecall, Bruising IS unresisted, since it uses the [Grant Power] Flag. It doesn't, however, stack, so it is just a single debuff. Hence why it doesn't "break" the game.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Tanker bruising is not unresistable. If it was, it would destroy raids like Hamidon. No player has access to a power in the game that is unresistable nor will they ever. It breaks the game.
Arcanaville can chime in as to why but it won't ever happen. |
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No, it is definitely resisted. You can type [bruised] in-game and see that it's not flagged as unresistible.
Since it's a grant power effect, the enemy applies the debuff to itself, and of course you're always +0 to yourself, so bruising effectively ignores level differences, but this is not the same as ignoring resistances. This can be observed with a Power Analyzer, among other ways.
Edit: Or alternately, City of Data shows that Bruising does not have the unresistible flag: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Powers.Bruised
For comparison, here's a power that is unresistible: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...nvulnerability
Not just the proc that sucks..the bonus stuff is bad too. For one, no recharge.
Second, it is another awful example of how the IO bonus stuff is so heavily stacked to defence. We hardly have any sets that give +res..and when they do, its just to 1 or two stats..were def is alwats typed + posi. Not to mention on the ATOs, def values go up to 5%, HIGHER than the def uniques (which again, we have 2 of, compared to 1 +res proc) while the +res values start lower and end under 3, less than the proc.
Come on guys, give us some DECENT +res stats. WTF is the problem with +res, when +def is so easy to get and works better.
The brute 6-piece bonus is ~2% resist to SLENFC, which I think is pretty decent. Now, if only such set bonuses weren't incredibly rare...
Yeah exactly Hopeling. The VERY fact it is so rare, makes it even less useful..because +res bonuses are so much hard to accumulate. And under 3%, for the catalysed version? What a load of crap.
Thanks for the correction, that's what happens when you go offa memory and not research.
I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Here is a PM I sent Synapse regarding the Brute ATO:
Hi Synapse, I believe last time you handled this category when the first Brute ATO came out. My goal here is to tackle the Brute ATO Proc and the set bonuses in an effort to provide some reasonable feedback with suggestions in a clear and concise method. Thank you in advance for reading and your feedback is welcome too.
The Brute ATO Proc of -Def is very weak and provides little benefit
-Def is a debuff that tends to work great only under certain circumstances. By itself it is a very weak debuff, here are scenarios and reasons why it does not fit the Brute as a proc:
- Cascading Defense Debuffs -- In these scenarios, -Defense works great as the first defense debuff lands the next one lands and so fourth. This works great for sets built around -Def such as Katana and Broadsword. A single ATO proc cannot create a cascading effect due to this limitation of PPM and the fact its not a global proc.
- Combination Attacks -- Another scenario it tends to work great in is combination attacks. An example would be Crushing Blow in Titan Weapons. Crushing Blow acts as the starting attack providing momentum while giving the benefit of lowering the target's defense so the momentum attacks can land. Not all Brute powersets have this benefit, therefore, -Def would not be very useful to them.
- -Def is overshadowed by accuracy and to hit buffs -- Player's have a base accuracy of 75% against an even con and 39% against a +4. Typically against even con enemies one Accuracy enhancer will cap accuracy while having a full accuracy enhancement value will almost cap it against a +4 enemy. This is assuming no to-hit buffs are being used.
- -Def is HEAVILY resisted. In cases where the opponent will have defense, they will have some form of defense debuff resistance. Nearly all defensive powers grant defense debuff resistance. While this provides defense against cascading effects, it nearly nullifies a single -Defense attack. In fact, a level 50 Arch Villain has 85% resistance to defense debuffs on average. a Level 54 has 87% resistance to defense debuffs. This is typically the baseline which changes a -20% defense proc to a piddly ~2% defense increase. This value becomes even smaller as AV's that have defensive buffs tend to resist -Defense even higher such as Captain Mako.
Suggestions for Changing the Brute ATO Proc with pros and cons of each suggestion
- Change the proc to a -20% resistance debuff.
Pros
1) Will be a flat 20% damage increase against a +0 mob.
2) Will be of benefit to every Brute
3) Will assist teams
Cons
1) Could be too strong increasing an entire team's damage.
2) All current -Resist procs in the game do not stack since they apply a self debuff to the enemy.
2A) A proc that cannot stack makes the proc diminish in value when teamed with other Brute's that have it.
If it was changed to this, I feel it needs to be able to stack meaning it would be effected by an opponent's level. However, there has been concern a -20% Resistance debuff would be too strong. If it was considered, I would suggest a PPM of approximately 2 a minute for 10 seconds each with the Catalyst increasing the debuff to -30% resistance. - Change the proc to a 100% recharge increase for 5 seconds, 12 seconds Catalyst, 2 PPM
Pros
1) Recharge benefits all builds. It rarely is capped.
2) Recharge gives diminishing returns, at the high end the value of the proc will go down as to not give too much of a benefit.
3) Due to PPM, it will maintain a controlled up time essentially removing the possibility of being slotted into an AOE to maintain a 100% up time on the buff.
4) Fits the theme of "unrelenting fury" the brute unleashes a flurry of attacks.
5) Proc is not diminished when other brutes have the same proc equipped
Cons
1) I can't think of any glaring cons. - Add a "double hit" (Hybrid Incarnate) effect for 10 seconds proc. 2 PPM, 10 seconds, Catalyst double hit lasts 15 seconds.
This is borrowed from how Hybrid Incarnate power works. Essentially, have the proc give a buff that adds a "double hit" effect to Brutes. The damage would be ~20% of a Brute's base damage of the attack modified by recharge time for chance to proc. It would add additional smashing damage to the attacks.
During this time period all the attacks that cause this effect will say "SMASH" in big letters. The idea is the fury of the Brute that his attacks are hitting so hard they are smashing for extra damage.
Mechanically it would look like this: When the proc goes off it gives a buff for 10 seconds "Unrelenting Fury" -- This buff now allows Brute attacks to trigger the double hit effect. Each attack has a chance to double hit, modified by recharge time, for an extra portion of the attack's base damage.
Pros
1) Interesting new and fun mechanic. Definitely unique.
2) Would be balanced for all powersets since the double hit would be based off recharge time and base damage while the actual buff is limited to 2 PPM that grants the double hit effect.
3) Would be fun seeing a Brute SMASHING things with the letters appearing.
Cons
1) Could be a LOT of work to code. I know you guys have your work cut out for you. - Add a buff that halts fury decay and generates 1 Fury per second for 10 seconds, adds "SMASH" when at 100 Fury. 10 second, 2 PPM, 15 seconds Catalyst with 15 fury.
The idea behind this is when the proc goes off it will stop fury decay and during that time frame your fury will increase at a rate of 1 point per second. (It may need to be 1/2 a point per second) To differentiate itself from the previous ATO proc, I suggest when the Brute is at 100 fury, all of his attacks deal an additional 20-40% more damage *ONLY* when effected by this proc buff (Essentially like having an extra Single Origin Damage enhancer equipped). During that portion all his attacks say "SMASH" in capital letters.
Pros
1) Another fun mechanic and really plays around with fury
2) Gives a +DMG buff that is beneficial to all builds since Brutes are rarely at the damage cap.
3) Not diminished by having multiple brutes on team
4) Synergies with the first brute ATO. Since fury generation is proportional to the amount of fury a Brute has, attacks made above 80 fury generate smaller and smaller fury amounts. Even with fury decay halted it would take a lot of attacks to generate one fury. The first Brute ATO proc would bring the Brute closer to 100 fury allowing the duration of "SMASH" (20%-40% more damage, just tossing numbers) to last longer. -- Remember SMASH only occurs when the proc buff is up.
Cons
1) Once again, may be difficult to program. I am not sure how hard it would be nor do I know of time constraints.
2) Could lead to potential balance issues by halting fury decay.
The above shows my suggestions and how I feel about the current Brute Proc ATO. The next section addresses the Brute set bonuses. My main focus is on the Brute ATO proc but I will address the set bonuses too.
Brute ATO set Bonuses
(2) Increases damage by 2%.
(3) Improves your Regeneration by 10%.
(4) Improves your Recovery by 3%.
(5) Increases melee defense by 3.75% and lethal and smashing defense by 1.875%.
(6) Increases Energy and Negative Energy resistance by 1.89%.
(6) Increases Smashing and Lethal resistance by 1.89%.
(6) Increases Fire and Cold resistance by 1.89%.
I will be critiquing each set bonus individually as I feel the bonuses are a little on the weak side.
- (2) Increases damage by 2%. -- I feel this is actually fine, its the Tier 1 bonus and while the value is small, they can add up.
- (3) Improves your Regeneration by 10%. -- Same as the above
- (4) Improves your Recovery by 3%. -- I feel this could be changed. Its a set bonus that belongs in Tier 1 or 2, not Tier 3. Personally, I would suggest a +Endurance set bonus. The main issue I perceive is the above are two small bonuses while this just adds yet another small bonus.
- (5) Increases melee defense by 3.75% and lethal and smashing defense by 1.875%. -- This needs changing. Melee defense is used by only TWO brute powerset, Super Reflexes. Super Reflexes generally has very little problem hitting the soft cap and due to its extremely high Defense Debuff Resistance it rarely needs to go beyond that.
For other powersets, S/L Defense is always superior as they can effect range attacks and 99% of melee attacks (Except for Psychic Probe) have a smashing and or lethal component. This should be changed into a Smashing / Lethal Defense Buff. - (6) Increases Energy and Negative Energy resistance by 1.89%.
(6) Increases Smashing and Lethal resistance by 1.89%.
(6) Increases Fire and Cold resistance by 1.89%. -- I feel Toxic and Psionic resistance should be added to these bonuses if they are to maintain the low resistance values. Otherwise, I would suggest here increasing the values as there is a PVP enhancer that gives 3% resist all for a single slot and gives teleportation protection.
very nice suggestions. The one question that popped into my head as I was reading about the Double Hit suggestion was: What happens if a Brute has the Assault Hybrid active already? How would that affect the Proc? Double Double Hit, or what?
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
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It shouldn't because you can code it to be two different things. Similar to how Fiery Embrace works with Double Hit or Interface works with double hit.
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Originally Posted by Xyzor
very nice suggestions. The one question that popped into my head as I was reading about the Double Hit suggestion was: What happens if a Brute has the Assault Hybrid active already? How would that affect the Proc? Double Double Hit, or what?
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I decided to put my comments in the feedback thread instead.
Short form: I agree, but don't think a strong argument can be made for every set being as good as or better than the first brute ATO set.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
I spoke with Synapse over PM's a bit and he is changing the proc it looks like. -Resistance is out though as no matter how weak it was made it was ultimately too powerful.
We could be looking at the +Recharge on the table...
Maybe some of you remember my thread by the exact same title during the first installment of the Brute ATO. It was 10%/15% more fury generated and it was worthless. I eventually got it changed to the fury proc. Well, it looks like a rematch has been asked for so now its round 2 as the developers are giving us another worthless proc that will need to be changed prior to live.
First, lets examine the lackluster set bonuses:
Unrelenting Fury
Enhancements Set Category: Brute Archetype Sets
Unrelenting Fury: Accuracy/Damage
Unrelenting Fury: Damage/Recharge
Unrelenting Fury: Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
Unrelenting Fury: Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Unrelenting Fury: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
Unrelenting Fury: Recharge/Chance for -Def(All)
Set Bonus:
(2) Increases damage by 2%.
(3) Improves your Regeneration by 10%.
(4) Improves your Recovery by 3%.
(5) Increases melee defense by 3.75% and lethal and smashing defense by 1.875%.
(6) Increases Energy and Negative Energy resistance by 1.89%.
(6) Increases Smashing and Lethal resistance by 1.89%.
(6) Increases Fire and Cold resistance by 1.89%.
I'm not going to talk about the set bonuses yet (Although melee defense? Only one set in the entire brute secondary has placement defense).
Did you see the bolded? Chance for a -DEF PROC????
This proc is approximately -20% Defense and as we all know that Arch Villains have a special resistance to all debuffs. They resist defense debuffs 85% at level 50 and at 54 they resist it 87% not including the purple patch. Even if this proc was 100% chance to go off we would be getting approximately a 2% defense debuff.
A person would be better off slotting a chance for smashing damage proc that is 20% (The IO will be around 20% PPM and 33% catalyst).
1) A 20% chance for smashing damage proc (Or lethal proc, like Mako's Bite) would help one shot minions.
2) A 20% chance for smashing proc would help one shot lieutenants
3) The same above would simply cause more damage to Bosses as they are normally 2-3 shotted.
-Def is worthless in all of the above scenarios. You would get more DPS and leverage out of a straight damage proc. Additionally, since the proc is not 100% chance to fire (Like weapon sets have 100% chance for -def) its even more worthless. The DPS increase is minimal.
The only spot a -Def proc would help would be against harder foes like Arch Villains. Even then, typical characters end game that have their enhancements slotted, even with SO's do not need the extra -Def. Even if the AV didn't resist it (Which the resist turns it into a 2% -Def proc.. more if its someone like Captain Mako) it would still be worthless.
This proc originally had -Resistance in it and it was removed.
Developers, please change this proc to just a full -20% resistance. It would give Brute's something similar to Bruising that tankers have.