Untouchable not always Untouchable? Or just lag?

As I pointed out in the other thread, having the pool version be inferior to the powerset version would seem intentional and not a bug.
I'm not sure where the devs would rank 'vet' powers like this. This might be intentional or might be a bug.

And as I pointed out....the pool version is inferior in the amount of health and endurance it provides and the amount of damage it does to nearby enemies.

The untouchable portion is NOT meant to be "nerfed" in comparison such that it is rendered "COMPLETELY INEFFECTIVE" at doing the job it was meant to do, "keep a player alive through the animation and just long enough after to have a chance at survival" rather than "I'm resurrec-dead".



Seriously, you're considering a "complete lack of function", due to a timing delay that should not be there, as a "slightly worse function"????
That is just dumb.

The untouchable time does not even need to be there if resurrect powers were not an instant re-death sentence.
What is the point of resurrecting if all you get is more debt?

Thus, they added an untouchable portion, to all but the wakie inspirations because those don't have a long recharge(and don't seem to be meant for in combat use), so that people would actually use a resurrect instead of skipping it and always goign to the hospital.

They may as well take the resurrect away permanently if it isn't useful at all due to being killed even before you have fully healed.




So, go ahead Ironblade. Call it "working as intended" when a power "doesn't work at all", especially one intended to be used in melee range combat because it damages nearby enemies.

I'm not sure why you've asserted this twice now without even checking. RotP provides 50% health and 50 end, and deals 333.7 damage with a 14.9 second stun on Blasters, Brutes, Scrappers, Tankers, Dominators, and Controllers. I'm not sure how much damage/stun the Mastermind version deals, Mids doesn't list it for some reason, but it seems like a safe bet that it matches the others.

From direct experience, the .25 seconds of vulnerability does not totally cripple the power. Not every death is followed by a large spawn of angry enemies camping your corpse. I would personally rather it gave less health or did less damage or had a longer recharge or whatever than that it had the delay, sure, true. Make a suggestion that effect, and I'd agree.

Ironblade said "the pool version is meant to be inferior"(maybe he had "probably meant" in there, but the point stands).
I didn't bother checking because I was trying to point out that "IF it is inferior then it is not in the way untouchable is applied".

The "untouchable" portion is meant to make all power resurrects that have it give the target of the resurrect just enough time to animate, un-root form the animation and try something(ANYTHING) to not go splat within a second after resurrecting/dropping "untouchable".


I see the 0.25 second delay(which yes is only a problem in some situations, thankfully not all) as an oversight because it completely negates the purpose of having "untouchable" in the power at all.
Why make somebody invulnerable after making them vulnerable and possibly dead? Do you want to give them a chance to save themselves before going "untouchable", thus making the invincible period useless, or do you just want to cause frustration?(directed at the devs)


It's either a bug or it is ignorance of possible issues with the delay or just plain incompetence while trying to make resurrect powers perform equivalently at the basic function.
I wager it is just a simple mistake that needs to be corrected, a bug.

And you're wrong about that, which was my point. The epic RotP is different than the Fiery Armor RotP in only one way, which is the delay on the Untouchable effect. Since epic pool powers are as a rule inferior to primary/secondary versions of the same power, this seems intended.

Like I said, if you want to make a suggestion that it should work differently, you have my support.

That was my point. Ironblade said that delay was intentional.

The difference between the two powers is, in my opinion at least, so negligible that it must be a mistake, especially since it can make the power with the delay fail under certain conditions which are all too easily replicated.



So, I'm not making a suggestion that it be changed just because "we want it to work the same".
It's a bug that belongs in the bug forum and reported to be fixed.

Those powers are effectively identical. They need to work identically. The fact that they don't, and that the "untouchable"effect that should keep a player alive is failing under predictable circumstances, means this is a mistake and bug that needs correcting.




Also, was it not said that the resurrect powers once all had a delay before the untouchable that was then removed? That would mean that the pool version was "missed" in that round of fixes.

And here we go again, where you claim to somehow 'know' how the power 'should' be working.


No, I didn't say that because, in order to know that, I would have to either be a dev or be telepathic. I said that pool powers are intended to be inferior to powerset powers (this is FACT) and so having the pool version be less effective in this manner was "probably" intended and not a bug.

Since this issue seems to be the only noteworthy deficiency compared to the powerset version, I stand by my statement that it's likely intentional. Feel free to check with the devs, or ask for it to be changed, but don't go claiming that you 'know' it's a bug.


Wrong. One is from a powerset, one is from a power pool. The pool version "needs" be to inferior. The devs have said so.

Any proof they said so?

Also, Hopeling, or somebody else in the other thread discussing this, looked them both up. They are IDENTICAL except for that 0.25 second delay.

Also....
1) 0.25 seconds is not enough time to make one power "inferior" unless 0.25 seconds just completely screws the power, which would be a problem.
2) Common sense says that "if they want you to be untouchable then they want you to be untouchable". They don't want the person using the power to die instantly while they are still stuck in an animation that can't be stopped and while nothing else can be activated.


You're ignoring common sense and I will not continue to argue with you.
That delay is not supposed to be there because it completely breaks the power, ruining its intended purpose.

If it was really meant to guarantee that you had 0.25 seconds to die then it would not be a resurrect. It would be like as self targeted Fallout instead, damaging enemies without trying to bring you back to life.


You're either blindly saying "the devs never make mistakes" or you really don't know how resurrects are supposed to be used, especially ones that damage enemies in a small radius meaning they are supposed to be used in combat after you die to come back and fight.

Are you going to see reason or continue arguing against the design of the power?

Imagine a world where it is possible for two completely reasonable yet different logical conclusions to be made. Once you do that, read through the thread again and keep an eye out for unreasonable reactions.

Almost every epic pool power in existence, for example? I would omit the "almost", but I'm not entirely certain offhand that there are no exceptions. Certainly a large majority of epic pool powers are downgraded in at least one way, though.

A .25s window of vulnerability does indeed make the power inferior, but still not worthless. The delay makes it ineffective as a rez when you're getting corpse-camped by a large group of NPCs with nobody else to shoot at. If you're facing a not-instantly-deadly amount of attention upon rezzing, the Untouchable will have time to kick in and you'll be fine. This means Fiery Armor RotP is basically "death immunity" (no matter how you died, RotP will get you back up), while epic RotP is "death resistance" (as long as you didn't get stomped TOO badly, RotP will get you back up). Having used both versions of the power, that's my conclusion from direct experience.

1) That vulnerability time is not the intention if it even works exactly as you say it does because of this phrase you say:
A) You can't know that it will be a "not-instantly-deadly amount of attention" unless it's clearly not enough danger to make the power "risky".
B) Most situations in the game, aside from really new "incarnate only" content which are the only extremely likely places, do not push that boundary even if you are pushing the difficulty to the max(which is not meant to be soloed anyway).

The situations where it would be risky are not what that power is designed around because all powers were designed around SO performance against lower difficulties that people can rush into with IOs and incarnate powers and now expect to survive in.
(Edit: Any situation where the character is not intentionally committing suicide is a situation that would not be a risk of "resurrec-dead" with Rise of the Phoenix in the situations Rise of the Phoenix was balanced around. It is only a risk once suicidal situations become less suicidal under full buffs due to IOs and incarnate powers which rise of the Phoenix was not adjusted for and is still not balanced for so needs to be rebalanced or is bugged.)
Is it "not inferior by design" but "inferior by new added situations" which it was not balanced around or even anticipated.


2) the above is only true if the 0.25 second delay is even "as intended now" even if it was "intended before" when resurrects were first given the untouchable period(which they did not have years ago as far as I remember).
It was a delay they removed from most resurrect powers, but "forgot" to remove from the pool version of Rise of the Phoenix.


3) Some pool powers are of equal or greater power than their Power Set identically named powers, especially on different archetypes, while most are the same power.

A) Rise of the Phoenix = identical to Tanker version except 0.25 second delay on untouchable(nothing else delayed and less health due to Controller lower base health, which is the real "inferiority" of the power)

B) Temp Invulnerability = identical for Tanker Willpower and Controller Primal Forces Mastery pool, except endurance cost(not effectiveness)
B2) Tenp Invulnerability = weaker on a Brute or Scrapper than the controller Primal Forces Mastery pool version, but still lower endurance cost

C) Mind Over Body = MORE POWERFUL in Controller Psionic Mastery than Tanker Willpower version, bit higher endurance cost
C2) Mind Over Body = MUCH GREATER POWER in Controller Psionic Mastery than Brute/Scrapper/Stalker Willpower version

As you can obviously see especially if you check the powers in game, the pool power versions are often SUPERIOR to the power set versions of the same power.
I surmise this is because the archetypes that get the pool versions do not get all the other tools in the power set that the other version belongs to, meaning they are at a natural disadvantage which allows them to be more powerful without being unbalanced.




Now, have we cleared up the fact that "pool power versions are not intentionally inferior"?
Yes, they are inferior due to not having the rest of the power set to combine with the pool power version as well as sometimes because of archetype base values(like Tanker hp vs Controller hp), but they are rarely inferior when the powers are compared directly, even with archetype modifiers being different.

The 0.25 second delay between resurrect and untouchable application of Rise of the Phoenix is not intentional.
If anything, Tankers and Brutes and Scrappers with their higher health, more defenses and more damage should have the delay while the pool version has the delay removed becuase of the natural disadvantage of the pool version.








Also, I am 99% sure that ALL RESURRECTS had the delay between resurrect and untouchable, at one point.
This may have been for any number of reasons, most likely so that they could affect enemies, to damage and stun, during the 0.25 seconds before becoming "phased" by untouchable such that they could "only affect self"(because phase tends to work that way such as in Dimension Shift, as explained to me).
They figured out a way to make the powers affect enemies even while phased(like the invisible pseudo-pet that Rise of the Phoenix summons), which allowed them to remove the delay on the powers, but they were most concerned with the most used and obvious versions of the powers(the ones in primary/secondary power sets) so they forgot one or two(or all; I haven't checked all pool resurrects if there even are others than Rise of the Phoenix) of the pool versions.



So, it is an oversight, a mistake, that the ancillary pool version of Rise of the Phoenix has the delay before applying untouchable simply by examining the numbers and the typical relation of pool powers to their power set namesakes.

I don't even need to go into the fact that the delay absolutely destroys(in certain situations) the intended purpose of the untouchable application within the power to prove that the delay is "not intended", but that is a much simpler and more obvious argument than comparing other powers which is why I used that argument first.

(delay = situationally broken power) = bug
(Fire Mastery.Rise of the Phoenix !>= Fiery Aura.Rise of the Phoenix)* = bug


*The comparison symbols mean "not greater than or equal to".

Ironblade's opinion is based on THE assumption THAT "pool powers are intentionally inferior to the same named power in a power set".

I proved that wrong in my above post as well as I have always been using logic to prove that the power "does not work as intended in specific situations" because "it was not balanced around or intended for those specific situations simply because those situations did not exist to be considered in balancing around".



So, there was only one logical point of view as the other was based on the assumption that "the devs intended, and still intend despite the problem situations, for the delay" citing "the fact that pool powers are inferior" which is proven false, thus the whole assumption was false at the very least.



Edit:
I have proven my case with evidence.
Though, the only way to prove it to most people(who can choose to ignore logic and evidence) is if the developers were to admit to a mistake with the pool version of Rise of the Phoenix by either patching the delay out or posting here saying "the delay is not intended to allow players to die before the untouchable period, as untouchable is intended to keep players alive"(which is an assumption provable by the fact of how untouchable works and how it is intentioned in this and other powers).

RotP is not a phase. Untouchable does not prevent you from dealing damage, and AFAIK never has. This is a near-impossible misconception to hold while having ever used the power, and makes it incredibly difficult for me to swallow your claims that the power is useless over my direct experience to the contrary.

1) See this thread for where I get the "untouchable makes you unable to affect others" idea: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...33#post4174833
It's not my fault the developers have not been clear with powers.

2) A resurrect is meant to "bring a character back to life", specifically with an animation that makes it look like "they have divine protection"(in the case of Rise of the Phoenix and some others), and allow them to survive at least until it recharges so long as they are able to.
The untouchable period, which lasts 15 seconds that is much longer than the resurrect needs to animate and finish applying the effects it does, is meant to give players that time "to try to survive".

Therefore, the facts of the power show that players are intended to survive for a minimum of 15 seconds from clicking the resurrect power, at which point they either die immediately or have done enough to have a chance at survival.



So, who really doesn't know the purpose of a resurrect?
They're not Radiation Emission.Fallout but self-targeted are they?
They're not Self Destruct from the old cyborg booster are they?

Resurrects are meant to bring back to life, not suicide for more debt or they would not resurrect and heal or anything besides damage and debuff.

Fire Mastery.Rise of the Phoenix(definitely pool version):
"You will revive with about half of your Hit Points and Endurance. Rise of the Phoenix will actually leave you invulnerable for a brief time"
FAILURE!
(Where is that picture of Lex Luthor screaming "WRONG!" in Superman Returns when you need it?)

Impression of the Mad Money guy in Iron Man: "That's a RESURRECT that doesn't RESURRECT!"


Why the hell does it say "leave you invulnerable" when that doesn't even happen sometimes?
FAILURE!






Also, I just looked another power up.
Would all of you agree that power choices, that take up a slot, are likely supposed to be more powerful than temporary powers?

The Winter Event power "Renewal of Light" also has the 0.25 second delay before untouchable takes effect. I just confirmed this in game.
Other than that, the power does identical damage to Rise of the Phoenix with slightly different secondaries, specifically slows instead of stun.

Renewal of Light:
Now, how are slows supposed to help you when you're dead because enemies were not stunned and you are not untouchable for 0.25 seconds and you can't activate any powers for that 0.25 seconds because you are stuck in the resurrect animation?


You are stuck in the resurrect animation, unable to activate ANY powers, during the 0.25 second delay of these resurrect powers.

Either they should change the power wording and numbers to say and completely guarantee:
....though the damage won't likely be enough to get "vengeance" on your enemies.
Also, that sounds like a very bad thing to encourage in this time after 9/11. It's not a superhero trait in the minds of sane people, nor a supervillain trait as they would never "sacrifice themselves" especially if they were dead "permanently" anyway.



Let me put it another way....

YOU'RE GOING TO THE HOSPITAL WHETHER YOU TRY TO RESURRECT OR NOT!

That is the problem with the "delay is intentional" arguments. They're stupid if you even remotely acknowledge the fact that the power is called "resurrect" and is intended to "close the hospital button in favor of getting up and fighting again".






Just for future reference....Fiery Aura.Rise of the Phoenix:
OH LOOK! AN INFERIORITY IN THE POOL VERSION!!

Look at the "xp debt protection" time: 20 seconds for the pool version and 90 seconds for the power set version.

Well, I guess that screws the assumption that the delay is the way they make it inferior because it actually has a different way of being inferior.




Edit:
Again, the delay is an oversight form when all resurrects had a delay.
If I could quickly find the patch notes that prove this, and/or historical data on power information if it even is kept, I would prove it.

They just "forgot" to fix the "non-power-set" resurrects like they did the power set ones.

Well for one, the developers labeled one effect "Intangible", and the other "Untouchable", and describe them in different ways in the power blurbs. Moreover, the developers are not to blame when a player decides that hearsay and guessing without any direct experience is good enough to declare total certainty about the function and even the intent of a power.
No. Definitely not. Temporary powers are all over the map in terms of power (see: IR Goggles, Shivan Shard).

/facepalm
I will hide in my corner of shame. (what is the blushing emoticon?)
I should have checked that again.


I do know how resurrects are supposed to work though, especially with the wording each of them has.
They're not supposed to let you die before the 15 seconds of "untouchable" are done.
The fact that some allow you to die before that "untouchable" applies, in certain situations, is not intended, especially when evidence shows some people seeing "untouchable" on the buffs while they're dead which means it shouldn't apply.

I wonder if such an occasion makes it impossible for other players to hit you with an ally resurrect if you are stuck untouchable after death in this manner? "Add insult to injury? Yes please!"

WHOA!
Cram those words down my throat will you?

I never said it was "useless".
I used hyperbole to play "devil's advocate".

"If this power was intentionally not ensuring 15 seconds of survival then it may as well not be a resurrect because it would guarantee death in some situations."



It's not useless by a long shot, just severely broken in certain situations due to that delay.

So what you're saying is that the pool version is inferior in one aspect. Okay.


And yet the inspirations don't give anywhere near these benefits. Are they completely broken? Talk about ignoring common sense. The pool power just isn't supposed to be as good as a powerset power.


Ah, now *YOU* are the arbiter of how rezzes are "supposed to be used". I see. Tough luck for the devs if they intended something different from how you think it should be.


The power as it exists, or as you THINK it should exist?

If that is not enough proof for you of the intended purpose of the power then you can argue with yourself.

Obviously, Rise of the Phoenix, in the pool version quoted above, is intended to "both resurrect and leave you invulnerable for a short time" instead of killing you within the first 0.25 seconds before you may have even finished raising your finger off the button that activated it.
It is definitely not working as intended when the power clearly does not work at the "minimum stated functionality" in every situation.





I'm not "assuming" squat. It's clear to read in the power description and detailed info what the intended behavior of the power is.
The fact that it "leaves you dead" in certain situations instead of "leaving you invulnerable for a short time" is clearly "not working as intended".

I'm through with you Ironblade. I thought you would at least consider the other side of an argument, but you must be having an off-week.


Edit:
FYI, I talked about inspirations in another post. They were clearly "not meant to leave you invulnerable for a short time or able to activate powers" so they don't seem to be for in combat use.
Resurrect powers clearly state "leaves you invulnerable for a short time", unlike inspirations.

Now look for an argument that unicorns and gremlins are the reason the delay is intended. It will work just as well as your most recent post.
Bye.

Since the immunity window is apparently considered more important now than it used to be, perhaps that would be an argument in favor of changing it for epic Rise of the Phoenix even if the previous behavior may have been intended when the epic version of the power was created.