Res + def Question
By
Bosstone,
Posted on: 2012-05-11 15:52 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Willpower's resist + def don't overlap very well. It has a small bit of Smashing/Lethal defense, but primarily it's S/L resist plus defense for the rest (and Psi resist/defense in equal amounts).
I'm at work so I'm not going to crunch a whole lot of numbers, but I can give you a place to start. Softcapped defense gets you 95% mitigation (50% base defense + 45% extra = 5% damage gets through). Resist + defense is better than softcapped defense when it gives you better than 95% mitigation. These combinations all give 95% mitigation:
45% defense, 0% resist
40% defense, 50% resist
30% defense, 75% resist
25% defense, 80% resist
0% defense, 90% resist (remember, there's still that hidden 50% defense)
If you can get better numbers than these, you're doing better than softcapped defense.
This is why it's popular to use resist sets, by the way. Adding defense is extremely easy, so if you start with a set that lets you reach max resistance, then you don't need a whole lot of defense to surpass softcapped defense.
But to spare you the number crunching, Willpower by itself does not give quite as much mitigation as softcapped Energy Aura. Willpower with a lot of S/L defense is much, much better than softcapped Energy Aura for most content.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Not sure if you took it into account but don't forget that regen is part of willpowers survivability package. Generally speaking, layered defense is better than putting all your eggs in one basket.
Another thought to offer....
You can get additional defense from IO sets. It is very difficult to get additional resistance that way.
My rule of thumb for survivability is to start with a set that has high resistances and layer IO defenses over that.
My wife's Dark/Dark Brute is a monster with defenses layered over resistances and a self heal thrown in for show.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
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This is only possible for Tanks and Brutes, and even then usually only to one or two damage types. For example, Invulnerability can cap Smashing and Lethal, and Fire can cap Fire resist, but neither will cap Energy, Negative, Cold, Psi or Toxic. On the other hand, if you have any amount of defense to start with, you can often softcap either Melee/Ranged/AoE or S/L/E/N (sometimes F/C too).|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
0% defense, 90% resist (remember, there's still that hidden 50% defense)
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That said, softcapping just S/L blocks a LOT of attacks, and adding that to any resistance set will multiply your survivability a LOT. You may still see certain enemies rip through you by surprise though - For example Arachnos have a lot of critters that do Energy/Toxic damage through the Ranged/Energy vector. S/L defense won't block that, and only Stone (in Granite) and Electric will have significant resist to the attack. Likewise, several psi attacks are blocked by Psi defense only, and do pure Psi damage. Few armor sets can stand up to prolonged psionic attacks.
Back to my original comment: The resist caps are 85% for Kheldians and 75% for all others. Like Tanks and Brutes, most of these cannot cap more than a couple resistance types. Kheldians can cap everything with their respective T9 powers, and both can be made permanent (with a LOT of recharge).
The most durable of the non-melee ATs is possibly the Crab Spider branch of the Soldier of Arachnos AT. It can get 50% or higher resistance to all damage and softcap M/R/A fairly easily. It has no protection against debuffs though, so you have to be careful around some enemy groups.
Now that I'm done rambling: Willpower with softcapped S/L will be stronger than softcapped Energy Aura, because Willpower has WAY higher regen. In situations with strong -Regen debuffs, Energy will pull ahead because of its self-heal. Willpower with 32% S/L/F/C/E/N will be stronger, because a small purple is practically a godmode. Willpower also has a self rez if things go south, and with the recent change, it's actually worth using.
I also prefer Willpower's god mode. God modes that crash hard enough to drop your toggles really bug me.
@Roderick
Energy Aura also boosts your offense, considering the recharge it grants.
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Also worth mentioning, EA gets some DDR. WP doesn't.
Ageless can add DDR though.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
see this is the issue i have, now i made a stalker, with energy aura and kinetic melee, thanks to jay :P
anyway, as a stalker with energy aura , i got all my defenses higher than softcap on everything par psi, s/l resis is 36.5% and energy is 20%, so with perma energize aswell would my survivability be substantially more better than willpowers or same? i dont want to tank anything, just be survivable in itrials and incarnate content, a better comparison would be energy aura vs electric armour, since are similar in sets and powers considering res vs def, sorry to be so technical, im just taking in numbers for a main im gunna work on, and i want him to be acceptable in most game content.
Incarnate softcap is 59% if you plan mostly to iTrial, that's your primary concern, some passive resists will obviously help you, but as a defensive set, you want Defense in spades, I would recommend agility alpha if you had not already considered it, as it boosts, endurance modification, recharge, and defense, those are all things you will want more of...
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Willpower's resist + def don't overlap very well. It has a small bit of Smashing/Lethal defense, but primarily it's S/L resist plus defense for the rest (and Psi resist/defense in equal amounts).
I'm at work so I'm not going to crunch a whole lot of numbers, but I can give you a place to start. Softcapped defense gets you 95% mitigation (50% base defense + 45% extra = 5% damage gets through). Resist + defense is better than softcapped defense when it gives you better than 95% mitigation. These combinations all give 95% mitigation: 45% defense, 0% resist 40% defense, 50% resist 30% defense, 75% resist 25% defense, 80% resist 0% defense, 90% resist (remember, there's still that hidden 50% defense) If you can get better numbers than these, you're doing better than softcapped defense. This is why it's popular to use resist sets, by the way. Adding defense is extremely easy, so if you start with a set that lets you reach max resistance, then you don't need a whole lot of defense to surpass softcapped defense. But to spare you the number crunching, Willpower by itself does not give quite as much mitigation as softcapped Energy Aura. Willpower with a lot of S/L defense is much, much better than softcapped Energy Aura for most content. |
Well, and succinctly stated.
Waaaaay back in the early days there was much discussion made over the 'immortality line', which was the damage stream which could be tolerated forever. I always liked the immortality line metric because it simply combines defense, resist, and healing into a single stat.
Of course, even that doesn't take into account buff/debuff/maneuver/status/time-to-defeat/etc effects, so it's not perfect.
An example:
EA broot has 45 defense, 0 resist, for 90 percent mitigation. Heals 25 hp/sec. Thus, that toon can tolerate 250 points of incoming damage per second forever: At that amount of damage or below, they are immortal.
Wp broot has 40 defense, 33.3 resist, for 86.66 mitigation. Heals 50 hp/sec. Thus, that toon can tolerate 374 hp/sec forever. At that damage or below, they are immortal.
The nesting/stacking behavior of mitigation is more complex and more subtle than it seems, and is subject to fairly large swings with small changes near the inflection points.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Well, and succinctly stated.
Waaaaay back in the early days there was much discussion made over the 'immortality line', which was the damage stream which could be tolerated forever. I always liked the immortality line metric because it simply combines defense, resist, and healing into a single stat. Of course, even that doesn't take into account buff/debuff/maneuver/status/time-to-defeat/etc effects, so it's not perfect. An example: EA broot has 45 defense, 0 resist, for 90 percent mitigation. Heals 25 hp/sec. Thus, that toon can tolerate 250 points of incoming damage per second forever: At that amount of damage or below, they are immortal. Wp broot has 40 defense, 33.3 resist, for 86.66 mitigation. Heals 50 hp/sec. Thus, that toon can tolerate 374 hp/sec forever. At that damage or below, they are immortal. The nesting/stacking behavior of mitigation is more complex and more subtle than it seems, and is subject to fairly large swings with small changes near the inflection points. |
wow thats a big piece of info there, i didnt really know this, so im better off for willpower than energy aura if i made my main willpower? as im not sure whether to go brute, tank or scrapper.
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Keep in mind that energize in EA gives you regen as well, 100% base which can be enhanced up to 200%, so if you can get it up 100% of the time (not impossible, just need to cap recharge in the power and get about 100% global) you will have a nice chunk of regen to compliment your softcapped def and minor - medium resists, so WP is not a clear winner. EA also gets some def debuff resistance (although not a lot), where mobs like cimerorans tear through WP's def since it doesn't get any. |
Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta
wow thats a big piece of info there, i didnt really know this, so im better off for willpower than energy aura if i made my main willpower? as im not sure whether to go brute, tank or scrapper.
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So neither set is a clear winner. WP is a more rounded set that is fairly easy run over the 1-50 trip but will be a bit harder to make into a 'high end' build since it takes some serous effort to softcap (plus a lot of end game stuff eats through def). EA is one of the easiest def sets to sofcap despite being typed def but it has two huge gaping holes - no psionic and toxic def and since EA is typed def you are basically open to psionic and toxic attacks. However you can also get a lot of extra energy def - easily up to the incarnate softcap (59%), which will balance out things in the current set of trials since a lot of the damage is energy.
For sets, I would choose based on set style. EA is going to be a semi-stealthy defense set with a built in heal, wp is going to be your generic 'tough guy' set. For AT it depends on what you want - if you want to be a damage dealer, scrappers or brutes are your best choice. Go with a scrapper if you want constant damage with the occasional high crit, go with a brute if you want slightly higher survivability (more HP) and don't mind fluctuating damage levels as you get/lose fury. If you want to be able to off tank a brute is probably your best choice. Both WP and EA will work fine on either a scrapper or a brute although brute EA has a better taunt aura than the scrapper version, both AT's get the same taunt aura in WP.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Yeah, I didn't factor in regen at all, which adds a lot to survivability as well.
Really, WP and EA are both very strong sets. It's hard to go wrong with either one.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Originally Posted by EricHough
Keep in mind that energize in EA gives you regen as well, 100% base which can be enhanced up to 200%, so if you can get it up 100% of the time (not impossible, just need to cap recharge in the power and get about 100% global) you will have a nice chunk of regen to compliment your softcapped def and minor - medium resists, so WP is not a clear winner. EA also gets some def debuff resistance (although not a lot), where mobs like cimerorans tear through WP's def since it doesn't get any.
So neither set is a clear winner. WP is a more rounded set that is fairly easy run over the 1-50 trip but will be a bit harder to make into a 'high end' build since it takes some serous effort to softcap (plus a lot of end game stuff eats through def). EA is one of the easiest def sets to sofcap despite being typed def but it has two huge gaping holes - no psionic and toxic def and since EA is typed def you are basically open to psionic and toxic attacks. However you can also get a lot of extra energy def - easily up to the incarnate softcap (59%), which will balance out things in the current set of trials since a lot of the damage is energy. For sets, I would choose based on set style. EA is going to be a semi-stealthy defense set with a built in heal, wp is going to be your generic 'tough guy' set. For AT it depends on what you want - if you want to be a damage dealer, scrappers or brutes are your best choice. Go with a scrapper if you want constant damage with the occasional high crit, go with a brute if you want slightly higher survivability (more HP) and don't mind fluctuating damage levels as you get/lose fury. If you want to be able to off tank a brute is probably your best choice. Both WP and EA will work fine on either a scrapper or a brute although brute EA has a better taunt aura than the scrapper version, both AT's get the same taunt aura in WP. |
yeah spunds about right to be honest, i can get energize perma so its not a problem, im using EA mostly on a stalker, since i havnt made a stalker yet and some ppl i spoke to about stalkers rave about EA being so good on it, for my main character tho, i will go willpower, well i want too, but if energy aura seems a better choice i will go that instead, since both fit thematically to my concept.
and just to add to the conversation, no one seems to remember that Rise to the Challenge has a -tohit in it. It's not much, but can be approx 5% with just one IO. Not to mention it allows for procs like Deflated Ego: Chance for Recovery Debuff which turn RttC into a very nice taunt aura.
The Def debuff resistance also should be factored in if you wanted a clear winner. 17% and some change for WP and 51%ish for EA, both unslotted.
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Mauk2 was giving an example without complete numbers as examples, such as with very little slotting the regen on EA it for can go for over 40 HP/Sec when needed. It also gets a heal added to it,... and on and on. |
Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta
wow thats a big piece of info there, i didnt really know this, so im better off for willpower than energy aura if i made my main willpower? as im not sure whether to go brute, tank or scrapper.
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The final answer is not necessarlily what you start off with from a set, but what you do with it while "growing" your char. With Power choices, Incarnates, IOs, slotting, Power Pools and epics you can dramatically change what your char is and what he can do.
That's a huge part of the fun of this game for me.
You might want to consider the mesh between your primary and secondary too. For example something like staff with the all the knockdown/resist/def etc really makes willpower shine even more.
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i agree wholeheartedly since i dont farm i just play the game as is andexperiece the fun unwrap, so i have taken into account everything thats been said, just a hard choice to make lol.
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Originally Posted by Shadey_NA
Mauk2 was giving an example without complete numbers as examples, such as with very little slotting the regen on EA it for can go for over 40 HP/Sec when needed. It also gets a heal added to it,... and on and on.
The final answer is not necessarlily what you start off with from a set, but what you do with it while "growing" your char. With Power choices, Incarnates, IOs, slotting, Power Pools and epics you can dramatically change what your char is and what he can do. That's a huge part of the fun of this game for me. |
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i have, although i already have astaff character currently being made and tested, im not a huge fan of the set per se, its still a fun loud set animations and moves are perfect, im going with kinetic melee since its so thematically fitting, but thanks for the idea |
Originally Posted by slythetic
You might want to consider the mesh between your primary and secondary too. For example something like staff with the all the knockdown/resist/def etc really makes willpower shine even more.
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EA and WP are dissimilar in enough ways that it is very difficult to say that either one is better overall. However, they are both very good sets in a wide variety of situations, and I doubt you would be disappointed with either. EA relies mostly on defense, and has some excellent endurance tools, and a recharge bonus. /WP has less defense, and is more susceptible to defense debuffs, but also suffers less when its defense doesn't work due to its increased hp/resistance/healing.
It might also be worth noting that Stalker /WP does not get Quick Recovery.
One thing to keep in mind for EA vs WP is whether you plan on tanking for group, such as in an iTrial - if so, keep in mind that EA's defense WILL fail periodically - even if you have 59% defense (my final EA build with purple brute ATOs gets around 53% S/L, with a single luck/darkest night covering the rest), they still have considerable accuracy. As such, be ready for incoming damage because you can get effectively one shotted (ACU damage patch + Anti-Matter's Irradiate = SPAMHEALSPAMHEALSPAMHEAL - PHEW).
WP has a small amount of DDR - Heightened Senses gives you ~17% DDR, or one third what EA gets. WP is also much easier to ''Godmode" than EA - Eye of the Magus/Demonic can bring your Smashing/Lethal resistance to 70-80% (depending on Alpha and AT) and a single sonic, thermal or even kinetics (if facing smashing/energy) can take you from survivable to "Did s/he just tank 3 mobs at once?"
EA is a LOT more work to make it a gamebreaker, but as long as you have an IO plan in mind, you can make it work.
PS: Don't try tanking Siege with EA - those Turrets go ''loldefense''.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
One thing to keep in mind for EA vs WP is whether you plan on tanking for group, such as in an iTrial - if so, keep in mind that EA's defense WILL fail periodically - even if you have 59% defense (my final EA build with purple brute ATOs gets around 53% S/L, with a single luck/darkest night covering the rest), they still have considerable accuracy. As such, be ready for incoming damage because you can get effectively one shotted (ACU damage patch + Anti-Matter's Irradiate = SPAMHEALSPAMHEALSPAMHEAL - PHEW).
WP has a small amount of DDR - Heightened Senses gives you ~17% DDR, or one third what EA gets. WP is also much easier to ''Godmode" than EA - Eye of the Magus/Demonic can bring your Smashing/Lethal resistance to 70-80% (depending on Alpha and AT) and a single sonic, thermal or even kinetics (if facing smashing/energy) can take you from survivable to "Did s/he just tank 3 mobs at once?" EA is a LOT more work to make it a gamebreaker, but as long as you have an IO plan in mind, you can make it work. PS: Don't try tanking Siege with EA - those Turrets go ''loldefense''. |
yeah i like energy aura, not sure lol.
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Haha... how do you like it so far? You can get some impressive numbers with that combo.
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Originally Posted by sypher_vendetta
see this is the issue i have, now i made a stalker, with energy aura and kinetic melee, thanks to jay :P
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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How does that not make EA shine?
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Originally Posted by slythetic
You might want to consider the mesh between your primary and secondary too. For example something like staff with the all the knockdown/resist/def etc really makes willpower shine even more.
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Hey guys, quick question, but i was looking at the numbers for energy aura, and willpower, and clearly willpower has more resistance and decent defence, but energy aura has amazing defense and not too bad resistance, so my question is, if i made an energy aura character above softcap, would it be just as sufficient as a willpower character? taking into consideration the low resistance on energy aura, what im gettin at is that does it matter to have a high resistance and a high defense or one of the other? hope ive made some sense with this :/
thanks in advance.
Sypher.