My big question, is V, who do you think has the legal right to drag the entire planet into a trans-dimensional war?
Assuming Primal Earth doesnt run on the rules of an America (**** yeah!) action movie, the USA cant of just declared war on behalf of the entire world. After all we only have the US government and Portal Corps, a US company, to say that Preatoria is lying about being attacked first.
The UN? Well assuming they are anything like their real life counterpart, then they are still discussing issues like Primal France, wanting mineral and oil rights to Praetorian Iran.
Vanguard? Id hope the UN would be smart enough not to put all their resources in the hand of one woman and give her free reign, to run unchecked as she sees fit.
Lets look who actually is the contact and the people involved in the trials. The soldiers? A random assortment of heroes and villains, the contact? A big blue guy who claims to be Prometheus.
Wed have to change way too much to make these fit Unionverse, so why bother? Why not accept that the invasions that happened were all that Preatoria could muster, and now its a cold war?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Praetoria declared war on Primal, CB... Not the other way around.
Anyway... Generally I don't have a problem with presuming things have happened, but what about the attacks on Kings Row and Steel? Both were heavily damaged in the task forces, but nothing has happened to the game world...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
How is this situation any different to the Rikti? The fact is the Praetorians invaded . Sure, there might have been some dicking around by Longbow, Arachnos, Vanguard, Crey and basically everyone with portal technology first. Seriously, everyone seems to end up going to Pretoria, but in terms of the war, Cole attacked, with a big army. Are you really suggesting the world would stand by and do nothing after that?
The simple fact is, we acknowledge the existence of the war and we’ve even fended off a couple of invasions in the form of the big in game events where the devs threw IDF at us. We’ve just ignored everything else.
The fact that international politics in the game is different is a whole other matter. (I'm looking at you, Warburg and... the effective UN backed military which is Vanguard).
As for the damage caused by the TFs, the general consensus seems to be that we just assume the damage was less severe than depicted. Also, there is the fact that the events are supposed to have happened a couple of years ago by now, any damage would have easily been repaired.
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[QUOTE=FloatingFatMan;4211454]Praetoria declared war on Primal, CB... Not the other way around.
[QUOTE]
Which is why we shouldn't start talking of making Lamda a series of 'vangaurd' raids on Preatorian locations. Firstly because we are veering way from how the trials are actually presented, and secondly what legal backing does Vangaurd have in this?
The trials are pretty much this, big blue guy who claims to be a god, tells you how to get more powerful by fighting for the attentions of an angry puddle.
They don't even make vanguard uniforms big enough to fit his blue ***.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Originally Posted by Nitro
How is this situation any different to the Rikti? The fact is the Praetorians invaded . Sure, there might have been some dicking around by Longbow, Arachnos, Vanguard, Crey and basically everyone with portal technology first. Seriously, everyone seems to end up going to Pretoria, but in terms of the war, Cole attacked, with a big army. Are you really suggesting the world would stand by and do nothing after that?
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Now honestly it depends on where the Preatorians attacked during their two in game invasions. Unlike the Rikti there is no evidence that they attacked globaly, just the US and Arachnos land. How many countries would be like? "Serves them right?" How many more would expect something in return for helping?
Likewise Vanguard action, this time they would not be operating within the borders of a member state, but actually invading another world. Again with only the word of the US that they didn't start this first.
We as players have knowledge that isn't know in the game universe.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Are you suggesting that if America was invaded the rest of the world would do nothing? Especially since Cole has made it clear he intends to conquer the entire planet.
Vanguards entire job is to defend the world from inter-dimentional invasions; they arent just gone to look at the IDF invading, shrug, and go well, I never really liked America or the Isles. As for Vanguard invading another world (as part of their job). Vanguard is supposed to invade according to the Praetorian war plot from the Devs. It starts with Dark Watcher working with the Resistance and ends with Vanguard working to capture Imperial City.
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9/13 - Never Forget.
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Quote:
Right, because no one ever 'counter-invaded' the Rikti homeworld to solve that problem.|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Now honestly it depends on where the Preatorians attacked during their two in game invasions. Unlike the Rikti there is no evidence that they attacked globaly, just the US and Arachnos land. How many countries would be like? "Serves them right?" How many more would expect something in return for helping?
Likewise Vanguard action, this time they would not be operating within the borders of a member state, but actually invading another world. Again with only the word of the US that they didn't start this first. We as players have knowledge that isn't know in the game universe. |
Wait....
Also, people act like;
1) Kings wasn't and still isn't a dump. Who'll notice a bit more added junk around?
2) Both zones are in Paragon, i.e. the place with more metas than anywhere else in the world. If you're using real-world parallels, than sure, yes, the places would likely still be a wreck. But how unreasonable is it to assume a lot of meta's, especially anyone who isn't a registered Hero but has, say, levitation powers, probably chipped in to help clear up? Not to mention all the stuff we IRL don't have, like small armies of robots in the PPD and Longbow?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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From what was said in in the UnionRoleplayer chat channel last night I got the following:
The reason for this is to have an RP agreed history that Toons can refer to IC.
The LAM and BAF itrials have been done by a generic group of meta powered people
And there was more than one raid. White was just defeated.
The Praet attacks on Kings and Skyway occurred, and most damage has been fixed (( look how fast LA repaired its Skyway like roads in RealLife after the earthquake ))
This has resulted in Cole now lacking enough strength and supplies to launch any more major attacks, while at the same time Primal is in the same situation.
..and thats it.
The point of progression and what we do with the story line post i23 was raised , but we are too much in the hands of the Devs and what they do, which I am sure they will not tell us yet
How we handled the SSA and the death of States seemed to work well
.
Some points..
From the Resistance and Loyalist Toons point of view, only the ongoing stalemate works, as sort of resolution is a huge game changer. Also technically all the action is from Primal side, there are no itrials run just for the Resistance, and none for the Loyalist.. From a RP stance this does need looking at and agreeing a whats happening and who is doing what.
All the itrials plus first ward and I assume night ward are VIP content, or pay to unlock the zones, I think we need to make sure we are not excluding non VIP players from RP by using VIP content IC with out careful thought. Even for VIPers the itrials are optional, and dont add any more to RP than any other TF , arc or mission
after all how many people does it take to defeat <insert any level 25 baddy/goody> or save whoever
Paragon is a very dynamic place , events are always happening, and the new today soon is history and ignored, the Rilti wars, Richeman and the 5th, Zombie invasions, MoT, all happened, but are now just footnotes in Toons back stories, The Praet war has had its high point and now is just another thing Paragon and the Isles survived, now everyone is focused on the new threat
.. This is how comic books work, and the Devs have clearly indicated that Praet has its end, how much effort do we need to put into fudging some minor events.
And, on topic, I'm agreeing that things up to Keyes should now be considered canon. i.e.;
1) Apex and Tin-Mage happened. Damage mostly around PPD HQ (Kings) and Blyde Square (Steel) which has since been repaired/merged into the background junk. Grandville and Peregrine were attacked as per Tin Mage, again having been repaired (Face it, Portal Corps is probably at nothing but a state of 'Stand-By' since forever...)
Neutropolis was hit to cripple that phase of the attack, and Neutron and Bobcat were both beaten. They are 'still around'.
2) The BAF has been taken offline. Siege and Nightstar are still 'somewhere', after being beaten by 'The Strike-Team' (faceless Heroes and Villains, etc)
3) Lambda will have been hit, taking a chunk out of the Praetorian production line, etc. Praetor White lost to 'The Strike-Team', and is currently raging, licking his wounds, whatever 'somewhere'.
3) Vanguard and allies are making forays into Praetoria and defending against further Praetorian strikes.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Then where do Ressitance characters fear to be put. Where do loyalist characters put people when they are arrested?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
2) The BAF has been taken offline. Siege and Nightstar are still 'somewhere', after being beaten by 'The Strike-Team' (faceless Heroes and Villains, etc) |
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Right, because no one ever 'counter-invaded' the Rikti homeworld to solve that problem.
Wait.... |
A hero team manned up and did it by themselves, no one ordered them to.
So which 16 heroes and villains are we going to claim did this in the Preatorian war?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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You forgot Sutter.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And, on topic, I'm agreeing that things up to Keyes should now be considered canon. i.e.;
1) Apex and Tin-Mage happened. Damage mostly around PPD HQ (Kings) and Blyde Square (Steel) which has since been repaired/merged into the background junk. Grandville and Peregrine were attacked as per Tin Mage, again having been repaired (Face it, Portal Corps is probably at nothing but a state of 'Stand-By' since forever...) Neutropolis was hit to cripple that phase of the attack, and Neutron and Bobcat were both beaten. They are 'still around'. 2) The BAF has been taken offline. Siege and Nightstar are still 'somewhere', after being beaten by 'The Strike-Team' (faceless Heroes and Villains, etc) 3) Lambda will have been hit, taking a chunk out of the Praetorian production line, etc. Praetor White lost to 'The Strike-Team', and is currently raging, licking his wounds, whatever 'somewhere'. 3) Vanguard and allies are making forays into Praetoria and defending against further Praetorian strikes. |
Also, I don’t think the BAF should be taken out, raided yes, but the BAF should still be running, otherwise we fall into the problems of the events of the war being a game changer.
Without further ado, here is a provisional event timeline. I would like to acknowledge RosaQuartz and her timeline on the beta forums, which I have shamelessly adapted.
Initial attack by IDF forces - This is the big invasion event that happened. From what I remember PI, Cap and St. Martial were hit. IDF forces attempted to disable the PTS system in Cap to cripple RI’s defences, and also assaulted Double Down to act as as a beachhead to push further in. While they did take the base, they were pushed back by a massed counterattack.
Heroside, I think they were just trying to capture the Portal Corp facilities, I don’t know, I was directing efforts in the Isles.
“The Sky Is Falling” (Admiral Sutter TF)
- Using an alliance with the Sky Raiders, Praetorians establish a large-scale portal and warworks factory on a makeshift floating fortress in the Atlantic Ocean and pull through an IDF expeditionary force.
- A joint force of the US Navy and Paragon City heroes destroy the portal, but Praetorians establish a beach-head on Talos Island and advance to Skyway City using the underground sewer system.
- A portion of Skyway City is devastated under the orders of Praetorian IDF Colonel Duray and executed by Powers Division members Jane Temblor and Fusion. IDF forces are defeated, despite Sky Raider air support.
- Praetorians attack Terra Volta and shut down the power plant despite the efforts of the Freedom Phalanx and other premier hero groups.
- Warworks attack on PPD HQ in Kings Row is beaten back.
- Battle Maiden strikes Blyde Square in Steel Canyon from near-earth orbit, and defeats Valkyrie, but she and her Warrior Earth battalion are stopped by supers working with Vanguard.
- Battle Maiden is captured, and ends up in a Vanguard facility in Siberia, but was recently broken out by Malta during the Mot timeline.
“The Praetorian Offensive” (Tin Mage Mark II TF)
- The War Works secretly hidden in Nerva Archipelago emerge and quickly secure the island, including Crey HQ. Malta Operatives attempt to oppose them.
- Vanguard sends a task force to Nerva to push back the Praetorians, gain the favor of Lord Recluse in the war effort, and keep Malta from acquiring War Walker tech.
- The Praetorians launch simultaneous assaults on Portal Corps and Grandville Tower. The Vanguard top brass assist in repelling the attack in Grandville, while the Vanguard task force defends Portal Corps.
- Using intel provided by a Goliath War Walker’s memory core, Portal Corps scientists trace the rift enclosure to Neuron’s Tower in Neutropolis. Portal Corps sends the Vanguard task force to Neutropolis, and there they are able to defeat Neuron, Bobcat, and the Goliath War Walkers that make up the spine of the invasion army and (presumably) disable Neuron’s rift enclosure.
Interlude - Without authorization, Colonel Duray sends captured Hamidon Seedlings via rift openings over Talos and Sharkhead Islands to soften Primal Earth defenses. For this initiative (and for the loss of civilian life on Primal Earth due to his attack on Skyway City) Duray is executed by Emperor Cole personally. A new Duray clone is put in service.
Primal Earth counterattack
Behavioral Adjustment Facility Raid
- Raid on the the BAF in Imperial City.
- The raid prevents Siege and Nightstar from using brainwashed Resistance commandos as unwitting human bomb, to black mark the Resistance, provide more propaganda opportunities and to act as sleeper agents.
- Siege and Nightstar are destroyed in the raid, but they are robots, so… they get better.
- Attack on the the IDF staging ground in Neutropolis
- IDF weapon stockpiles are destroyed.
- Marauder attempted to protect the facility, but is beaten.
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9/13 - Never Forget.
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I'm good with all that. Yeah, I *still* haven't run a Sutter, hence not remembering >_<
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Question, with i23 and the new Night Ward zone, does the exsistance of Night Ward make IC RP sense from where we are in the Praet story line ?
I know how Night Ward comes about from spoilers, but not the full details, given where we are Unionverse RP Lore wise, does Night Ward work IC ??, or do we need to progress any part of the other Praet / itrials / DA stuff ??
Anyone know ?
Night Ward follows on directly from the First Ward story arcs, there is no reference to any of the war stuff I can recall, and given the level range, I believe it takes place before all that stuff anyway.
DeVore is also still alive, so at the very least that at least places it before UG.
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Quote:
Are you sure she's alive? Night Ward is crammed full of dead people, is it not?
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Originally Posted by Nitro
Night Ward follows on directly from the First Ward story arcs, there is no reference to any of the war stuff I can recall, and given the level range, I believe it takes place before all that stuff anyway.
DeVore is also still alive, so at the very least that at least places it before UG. |
The first arc is from a (living) carnie mistress in First Ward, and her first mission consists of her telling you that DeVore wants you to free Katie from the network. Night Ward just follows on directly from where First Ward ended.
The fact that the seer network is still about indicates MoM hasn't happened, and the fact that DeVore seems to still be about giving orders kinda indicates UG hasn't happened yet.
This message brought to you by Sarcasm. Accept no substitutes.
9/13 - Never Forget.
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I hope you love wall of texts, because I do. This is an idea I raised yesterday on URP, and seemed to be met with positive or neutral response. So I will outline my idea here
BEWARE SPOILERS!
The Praetorian war has gone stale, not because the developers have stopped providing content, but because we have skirted around what content there has been, for the most part we have been reluctant to even touch the stuff, due to the massive potential ramifications IC. The Praetorian war is an elephant in the room, and I think we should sort it out.
The general “consensus” is that it is simply impractical to incorporate the evolving Praetorian War plot into RP because it disrupts the current status quo too much and basically will shortly prevent any new RPer from bringing in a Praetorian, as well as neutralise a lot of Praetorian concepts. So, we have just kind of ignored the entire thing. It’s been left hanging. We have had two IC attacks and then, inexplicably, deathly silence.
For those who don’t know, the war is slated to end with Cole nuking a (thankfully evacuated) Nova. Mother is dead, DeVore is dead, Yin and Auora Borealis are free, Scott is crazy, the truce with Hamidon is off and Imperial in the hands of Vanguard. A lot of stuff is supposed to happen, and it's easy to see why people have kept away from events unfolding IC. [Seriously, why would you do that Cole? We had a Crusader plot to dentate a neutron bomb in the city and they were labelled as completely insane, with Marchand stating that if an undercover Loyalist actually helped detonate the bomb, it would be an irredeemable act of crazy terrorism. I mean, Cole didn’t even kill any of the invaders, I’m not even sure if mastermind pets die. And seriously, you are blowing up a third of what is the only remaining nice place on the planet to vaguely inconvenience your enemies?]
Nothing up to Keyes is a game changer though, incorporating them, unlike the death of DeVore, or Mother or even Keyes going of the deep end isn’t going to cause problems. Arguably there is the problem that during the assault on Lambda Marauder gets beaten, and since he disappears from later content, we can reasonably assume he is dead or captured or something. In terms of the trial itself however, and the fact that the later content is incompatible, it’s not really an issue. Heroic forces storm Lambda sector, destroy weapon stockpiles and even end up defeating White.
I think we can easily incorporate some of the… less… well… game changing events. And I am of the opinion that this is a good thing, because it’s more potential fodder to talk about if the war is every brought up. Otherwise we’ve had a total of, what? Two invasions? That is a pretty anaemic war. The Rikti manage more than that, and Cole is supposed to be a big serious threat. But right now we have had two invasions and then a great wall of silence. Right now the Praetorian was is a de facto cold war. It’s not supposed to be, but it’s ended up like that because nothing has happened IC to speak of, and we have no real explanation of why it's a cold war other than something we just make up to address the current practical situation. When the war is mentioned, and quite a lot of the time it is just skirted round, I’m not sure whether I should go with the practical position that we have entered a state of cold war, or try and acknowledge the wishes of the devs, which is that the war is still hot. We are, after all, supposed to be fighting.
Why should we even bother? You might ask. Well, it’s because without clearly accepting this content as “stuff that has happened” we don’t know where we stand on events in RP. With this everyone is on the same page, and we have a war with actual content and development. We have an initial Praetorian offensive and a Primal counterattack to neuter their war machine, resulting in a de facto state of cold war. If the war is ever mentioned we don’t have to keep skirting round the entire issue, unsure of what is or is not accepted as IC. Rather than the current vague uncertain limbo we can just put a cap on things, and if we have any new people who want to know what the state of the war if Praetoria is, we can just point them to that content and say “this is stuff that has happened", and we are now in an effective stalemate.
You might not care, but the person with the Resistance character, or the Vanguard character or the loyalist probably does. This way, if we wanted, we could even have an IC Lambda raid. It would just be (yet another) attack to help make sure Cole doesn’t have the capability to wage war.
In conclusion, the Praetorian war is a stale joke because we have just kind of kept away from it due to the perceived problems. This is bad for a community role-play where we need to know where events stand. Therefore I suggest we make all the events of the war up to Keyes “things which have happened”. This will give the war actual substance and provide an explanation for the current state of effective stalement.
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9/13 - Never Forget.
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