Kheldians may still have some issues, but survival is not one of them.
Regardless of your suggestion, you need to provide some evidence to show what problem it solves. I don't see the problem.
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I... don't see a need, honestly.
The only thing I'd like to see, as far as an extra power for any of the forms, is an extra attack for White Dwarf.
I see the need. Make Quasar and Dawn Strike crashless nukes with an ROA level cooldown that can only be used in Nova form. Bam. Human form only now has a viable contenting playstyle for high end performance Kheldian builds. Oh, and I still think both Dwarf Form's should get a Tanker Storm Kick mechanic added to their t1 strikes.
Erm, right...
I think the Forms each need one more attack, except Dark Dwarf, which already has one? So D-Dwarf needs something else... I guess.
Be Well!
Fireheart
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I still don't see the logic behind putting the nukes into human form when the whole purpose of Nova is to bring the best AOE damage to the table. It's not that I think the form *needs* an extra power, just that I think the change would make the most sense and if the nukes were made crashless it would add a tremendous amount of value to Nova form which is particularly complained about being useless on a Peacebringer quite a bit.
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Originally Posted by Fireheart
Erm, right...
I think the Forms each need one more attack, except Dark Dwarf, which already has one? So D-Dwarf needs something else... I guess. Be Well! Fireheart |
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Quite right, I mean a regular attack. Eye-beams and another punch.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I still don't see the logic behind putting the nukes into human form when the whole purpose of Nova is to bring the best AOE damage to the table. It's not that I think the form *needs* an extra power, just that I think the change would make the most sense and if the nukes were made crashless it would add a tremendous amount of value to Nova form which is particularly complained about being useless on a Peacebringer quite a bit.
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Nukes just aren't that useful in the attack-chain.
Be Well!
Fireheart
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So you want a ST attack in order to give Nova forms competitive DPS with human and Dwarf form? I don't really think another option for strong single target damage is necessary for Khelds. As it is now, the Nova's constant burst AOE is the most powerful either Kheldian has access to aside from the Nukes, but the survivability cost for leaving human form and dropping defense toggles is not worth the only *slight* increase in AOE output. Adding a crashless, fast cycling nuke to the Nova forms respectively would add incentive for taking and using the form in the first place. I see no logical reason for Nova to excel at single target damage- The forms are supposed to provide versatility by fulfilling different roles, not compete with one another. |
Originally Posted by Fireheart
Quite right, I mean a regular attack. Eye-beams and another punch.
Nukes just aren't that useful in the attack-chain. Be Well! Fireheart |
Also, why "another punch"? I'm pretty sure that both dwarf forms can make an attack chain with just SO's as-is. The reason why I would like to see a Tank-esque Storm Kick mechanic added to both of the t1 Dwarf Stikes (not a new power, just an added functionality) is that human form currently has much higher potential for survivability than Dwarf form on both brands of Kheldian, and this seems like it needs to be counteracted since Dwarf is meant as the 'tank' form.
Same as Dechs.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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A thousand times this. If anything, we need Speedy's epic shapeshift form x)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Kheldians may still have some issues, but survival is not one of them.
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I'd personally give the forms the ability to "carry over" one or two powers from the Human set-up. I've only played Warshades though so can only suggest for them.
Give Nova the ability to cast Gravitic Emanation in form. Reasoning is that Nova can better position itself for KB cones and that it could be a useful panic button when in Nova. Possibly give them to cast Unchain Essence in Nova too as a mini-nuke.
Give Dwarfs the ability to use Orbiting Death, but with a Taunt added to it if possible using tokens & token checks if needed. Reasoning is that with its tauntless AOE it can be hard to maintain aggro in Black Dwarf form with just the 5 target taunt. Maybe give them the ability to cast Gravity Well as an occasional melee hard-hitter for when you're stuck fighting a boss.
PBs would obviously have the same sort of things applied, I just don't them well enough to say which powers they should be.
The reason behind allowing these powers to be reused rather than new ones being put into the forms is simply slot-crunch.
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With just 3 attacks? White Dwarf needs a lot of recharge to build an attack chain, don't think it's possible with only SOs, and it's definitely a problem while leveling. Regardless, just cycling two ST and an AoE gets repetitive.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Also, why "another punch"? I'm pretty sure that both dwarf forms can make an attack chain with just SO's as-is. The reason why I would like to see a Tank-esque Storm Kick mechanic added to both of the t1 Dwarf Stikes (not a new power, just an added functionality) is that human form currently has much higher potential for survivability than Dwarf form on both brands of Kheldian, and this seems like it needs to be counteracted since Dwarf is meant as the 'tank' form.
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As to survivability, light form lacks any sort of debuff resistance, which could very well become the tank-form's niche.
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I don't have Mids up right now but I'm pretty sure that at least during the duration of Hasten Warshades can build a seamless attack chain in Dwarf form on basic IO's/SO's fairly easily. Not as sure about Peacebringers. It should never get boring and shouldn't be an issue while leveling because most builds will not have a fluent attack chain throughout their level up journey anyways and the additional access to form powers for Kheldians actually gives them more of an advantage in that department. Also if you['re getting "bored" just switch forms, that's the beauty of a tri form build. Shrug.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
With just 3 attacks? White Dwarf needs a lot of recharge to build an attack chain, don't think it's possible with only SOs, and it's definitely a problem while leveling. Regardless, just cycling two ST and an AoE gets repetitive.
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| As to survivability, light form lacks any sort of debuff resistance, which could very well become the tank-form's niche. |
Some of these ideas are not bad and I would support the devs at least taking a look at them. As most of you know that is quite the opposite of my usual position regarding player driven change ideas for Khelds.
What can I say you guys have come up with better ideas this time around. 
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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This, so this. I'd actually play in dwarf again. Well maybe... |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Give Dwarfs the ability to use Orbiting Death, but with a Taunt added to it if possible using tokens & token checks if needed. Reasoning is that with its tauntless AOE it can be hard to maintain aggro in Black Dwarf form with just the 5 target taunt.
The reason behind allowing these powers to be reused rather than new ones being put into the forms is simply slot-crunch. |
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I think you are forgetting that Black Dwarf gets one more attack than its pixie counterpart.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I don't have Mids up right now but I'm pretty sure that at least during the duration of Hasten Warshades can build a seamless attack chain in Dwarf form on basic IO's/SO's fairly easily. Not as sure about Peacebringers.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
It should never get boring and shouldn't be an issue while leveling because most builds will not have a fluent attack chain throughout their level up journey anyways and the additional access to form powers for Kheldians actually gives them more of an advantage in that department. Also if you're getting "bored" just switch forms, that's the beauty of a tri form build. Shrug.
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No I wasn't. That's why I mentioned I was more sure that Black Dwarf would have a chain on SO's.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I think you are forgetting that Black Dwarf gets one more attack than its pixie counterpart.
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Yeah... with Hasten... Why should we have to take Hasten, just for a basic attack chain? Why should he have to take Hasten at all? I hate Hasten.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I don't have Mids up right now but I'm pretty sure that at least during the duration of Hasten Warshades can build a seamless attack chain in Dwarf form on basic IO's/SO's fairly easily. Not as sure about Peacebringers.
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Also, as I alluded before, Black Dwarf has the 3 basic attacks needed to form a chain, but White Dwarf does not. Nova also does not and the AoEs recharge slow enough that they really don't chain well.
Happily, my pure-human PB does not suffer from this. No Hasten and I can manage a nice quick chain of Bolt-Eye-Bolt-Blast (repeat) with punches and AoEs thrown in for extra-spicy-flavor! I'm a pure-human PB, so I don't have to take Hasten to keep from sucking.
To approach this level of performance, Nova needs an 'Eye' equivalent and White Dwarf needs 'Barrage', to round out their 'Energy Punch' and 'Bone Smasher' clones. Or, since 'Barrage' is such a sucky power (without Bruising), Incandescent Strike might be nice in Dwarf form.
Finally, to encourage taking the forms, each form should start with 2 enhancement slots in each power. Finally, we'd be able to slot things reasonably. Kheldians might even approach the Other meaning of 'epic'.
Be Well!
Fireheart
Faster form shifts are coming, I suspect very soon. Once that happens your complaints will be moot since you'll be able to switch forms fluently to take advantage of quick recharging powers, not that I'm personally taking them too seriously anyways since you're deliberately performing to a low standard by not taking Hasten. Skipping Hasten on a Kheldian is like opting to not put gas in your car and expecting it to run fine.
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I eagerly await these form shift changes, as for hasten on khelds this pretty much nails it for me. If you choose to perform at a lower standard because you feel you shouldn't have to take certain powers then you're missing the point. A kheld runs optimally when you get as much recharge as you can out of it before all else so why wouldn't you want a power that essentially gives you 70% additional recharge permanently after i've already built up 100% global recharge bonuses. It's one power choice and it's the most efficient way to achieve that level of performance.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Faster form shifts are coming, I suspect very soon. Once that happens your complaints will be moot since you'll be able to switch forms fluently to take advantage of quick recharging powers, not that I'm personally taking them too seriously anyways since you're deliberately performing to a low standard by not taking Hasten. Skipping Hasten on a Kheldian is like opting to not put gas in your car and expecting it to run fine.
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A harsh as these words are, I agree with every bit of them. Kheldians benefit from recharge more than almost everyone else (illusion controllers are the possible exception). |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Faster form shifts are coming, I suspect very soon. Once that happens your complaints will be moot since you'll be able to switch forms fluently to take advantage of quick recharging powers, not that I'm personally taking them too seriously anyways since you're deliberately performing to a low standard by not taking Hasten. Skipping Hasten on a Kheldian is like opting to not put gas in your car and expecting it to run fine.
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If you are going to shoot yourself in the foot, you really can't complain if you don't have a band-aid big enough.
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Holy cow! Since when were these changes coming!? I've never even heard of them! If you're pulling my leg I'll be very upset with you, THB |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Faster form shifts are coming, I suspect very soon. Once that happens your complaints will be moot since you'll be able to switch forms fluently to take advantage of quick recharging powers, not that I'm personally taking them too seriously anyways since you're deliberately performing to a low standard by not taking Hasten. Skipping Hasten on a Kheldian is like opting to not put gas in your car and expecting it to run fine.
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I'm just speculating, but I think my speculations are correct. Arbiter Hawk wanted to get the changes done for issue 21 but he didn't have a solution for the animation at that point. He hasn't forgotten about it though.
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Originally Posted by Diggaroo
Holy cow! Since when were these changes coming!? I've never even heard of them! If you're pulling my leg I'll be very upset with you, THB
() |
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I agree, Kheldians and Illusion Controllers benefit immensely from Hasten... Why should they have to?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
A harsh as these words are, I agree with every bit of them. Kheldians benefit from recharge more than almost everyone else (illusion controllers are the possible exception).
If you are going to shoot yourself in the foot, you really can't complain if you don't have a band-aid big enough. |
I'll agree, also, that part of what makes Kheldians more effective is the buffs and other effects they have in Human form and carry over to Nova and Dwarf... Why should they 'have to' use a Pool Power, in order to be effective?
One more attack in each form would allow the forms to be a little more self-contained. Granted, not as awesome as a true 'Dancing Tri-Form', but still effective.
Really, instead of calling me a nut, why don't you Consider what you could do, if you did not 'have to' take Hasten??
Be Well!
Fireheart
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It has nothing to do with "have to." There's nothing that says you must take Hasten. But the simple mechanics of the AT want for recharge, and Hasten is the best place to get some. |
Originally Posted by Fireheart
I agree, Kheldians and Illusion Controllers benefit immensely from Hasten... Why should they have to?
I'll agree, also, that part of what makes Kheldians more effective is the buffs and other effects they have in Human form and carry over to Nova and Dwarf... Why should they 'have to' use a Pool Power, in order to be effective? One more attack in each form would allow the forms to be a little more self-contained. Granted, not as awesome as a true 'Dancing Tri-Form', but still effective. Really, instead of calling me a nut, why don't you Consider what you could do, if you did not 'have to' take Hasten?? Be Well! Fireheart |
Let's assume that you really do "have to" take it. Even if that were true, I'd still want it. Because I want Eclipse up more often. I want Unchain Essence up more often. I want Lightform, Solar Flare, Photon Seekers, Extract Essence, Stygian Circle, Heals... everything.
It's not quite like the analogy THB presented. You may not have to press the gas pedal to the floor if you are in a race. But why would you not want to?
It's a tool that's available and you'd only "have to" be a nut not to take and use that tool.
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A power in each set that gives the nova form or the dwarf form an additional power. I personally would like a 20 sec defense power for the nova form, and a 20 sec resist power for the dwarf. Make them similar to icy bastion. A boost that wouldn't make them crazy powerful, but would give them an oh crap button. Just a small buff to the Kheldian.