Combat has a thread which goes over this combo, he opted towards getting M/R/A to 32.5% and being one purple from capping each of those.
S/L is viable too, I have a build which has similar goals to you - but it uses enhancement boosters to push over 40% S/L to get cap using Barrier.
Whenever I get around to filling his build, and when Mid's updates to allow ATOs, I will likely be putting in the Brute's Fury set nabbing more S/L defense and freeing up a slot to boost accuracy in Defensive Sweep.
On BETA I was pleased with the results, also provides hefty damage!
Here's my take:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.953
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
RA-FT-AoD-Gloom-FT: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Titan Weapons
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Defensive Sweep -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(5), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(13), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 1: Charged Armor -- ResDam-I(A), HO:Ribo(36), HO:Ribo(43)
Level 2: Lightning Field -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(3), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(3), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Oblit-%Dam(40)
Level 4: Conductive Shield -- ResDam-I(A), HO:Ribo(42)
Level 6: Titan Sweep -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(7), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(25), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Oblit-%Dam(45)
Level 8: Follow Through -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(9), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Hectmb-Dam%(11), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 10: Static Shield -- GA-3defTpProc(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15)
Level 14: Build Momentum -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(50)
Level 16: Grounded -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 18: Rend Armor -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(19), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(19), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Achilles-ResDeb%(23)
Level 20: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(25), KntkC'bat-Knock%(37)
Level 24: Tough -- ResDam-I(A), HO:Ribo(46)
Level 26: Whirling Smash -- Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(27), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(29), FrcFbk-Rechg%(29)
Level 28: Energize -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dct'dW-Rchg(48), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(50)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Cyto(31), Ksmt-ToHit+(34)
Level 32: Arc of Destruction -- Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(33), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Armgdn-Dam%(34), FotG-ResDeb%(34)
Level 35: Power Sink -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(37), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(37), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(39), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(39), Mocking-Rchg(39)
Level 38: Gloom -- Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(A), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apoc-Dam%(43), Cloud-%Dam(48)
Level 41: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(43), Mocking-Rchg(45), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(46), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(46), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(50)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), HO:Cyto(48)
Level 47: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Power Surge -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
------------
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(7)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(31)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Clrty-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 1: Momentum
Code:
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This is the "new" build with the ATO slotted. Does not need enh. boosters to get 40% smash/lethal instead opting for the full 45% allowing you to use a different Destiny. Defensive Sweep now has acc/dam/end slotting and may be used to obtain incarnate softcap for smashing.
Code:
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@War-Nugget
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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Is it worth the "trouble" of going for the (classic) s/l defense softcap? Absolutely. Elec is a sturdy secondary for brutes as it is, but when you add in a softcapped build, you get the best of multilayered defenses (high s/l res, high s/l defense, endurance mitigation tools, solid damage aura, psi res, energy res... and the list goes on).
Call me crazy, but I wouldn't consider a build softcapped if it has to rely on barrier to get there. In my eyes, Barrier is more of an OH ***** button in case you are getting pelted and need some relief. In order to call oneself truly softcapped, I would think you need to be softcapped all the time; not just when Barrier is up. Speaking of that, is it even possible to have Barrier "perma"? I have a brute with barrier, but it is T3 and it doesn't seem like even getting to T4 is worth it or likely to bring it to a perma status.
It isn't elec armor, but I have a fm/fa brute that rocks softcapped defense (without factoring in Barrier or any ATO enhancements) that sacrifices nothing as far as damage goes. So don't listen to anyone that tells you that reaching defense goals will cost damage or anything else. It can be done, and it is unquestionably worth the "trouble". I don't have an elec armor brute, but I am sure that if it can be done with fire, it can be done with electric too.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
@war - that's a nice build. I'd like to avoid maneuvers and have a travel power, but I'm probably going to try to take a crack at it again and incorporate some more. I was inclined to go with CB over DS because DS seems very weak and CB has the (slightly) faster cast to get me into momentum... but then again, at 3 targets DS is worth more and maybe the defense will be useful. And it's an extra LotG, which is nice. /waffle /waffle /waffle
Thanks tho!
Quote:
Barrier is a very acceptable way to softcap defenses. T4 barrier core lasts 2 minutes, which makes it perma. T4 Barrier Core gives 5% defense to all and 5% resistance to all for the full 2 minute duration. Alpha choice can affect those numbers, ie my fire/cold with agility alpha gets 6% defense from barrier instead of 5%.
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Originally Posted by magikwand
Call me crazy, but I wouldn't consider a build softcapped if it has to rely on barrier to get there. In my eyes, Barrier is more of an OH ***** button in case you are getting pelted and need some relief. In order to call oneself truly softcapped, I would think you need to be softcapped all the time; not just when Barrier is up. Speaking of that, is it even possible to have Barrier "perma"? I have a brute with barrier, but it is T3 and it doesn't seem like even getting to T4 is worth it or likely to bring it to a perma status.
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At higher levels, most villain groups carry significant defense debuffs. So without defense debuff resistance, what you'll discover is that the soft-capped S/L you're so proud of will vanish in an eyeblink if you jump into battle because S/L doesn't protect against most of those debuffs (they tend to be toxic, psionic or have huge accuracy bonuses against S/L).
Even excluding defense debuffs, the return on S/L defense is extremely low since Electric Armor already has such outstanding resists vs. S/L. When you're only taking 10% damage from a damage type, spending serious effort to cut it down further isn't all that useful.
If you want to invest in a defense category, go for Ranged defense. Electric Armor's weak spots are Psionic, Toxic and Negative. Almost all of those attacks are delivered at range.
Quote:
Well, good to know. I still would feel better about a build not using this mechanic, but that's a valid point.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Barrier is a very acceptable way to softcap defenses. T4 barrier core lasts 2 minutes, which makes it perma. T4 Barrier Core gives 5% defense to all and 5% resistance to all for the full 2 minute duration. Alpha choice can affect those numbers, ie my fire/cold with agility alpha gets 6% defense from barrier instead of 5%.
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Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
Quote:
This seems like an excellent point. Doubly so since TW is so rich with knockdowns, which would provide a decent amount of pseudo-mitigation at melee.
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Originally Posted by Beauregard
At higher levels, most villain groups carry significant defense debuffs. So without defense debuff resistance, what you'll discover is that the soft-capped S/L you're so proud of will vanish in an eyeblink if you jump into battle because S/L doesn't protect against most of those debuffs (they tend to be toxic, psionic or have huge accuracy bonuses against S/L).
Even excluding defense debuffs, the return on S/L defense is extremely low since Electric Armor already has such outstanding resists vs. S/L. When you're only taking 10% damage from a damage type, spending serious effort to cut it down further isn't all that useful. If you want to invest in a defense category, go for Ranged defense. Electric Armor's weak spots are Psionic, Toxic and Negative. Almost all of those attacks are delivered at range. |
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S/L defense is actually quite good on /elec armor, like it is on many other things. Actually S/L defense is typically better on Electric Armor than other things because of Elec's fabulous layered mitigation covering S/L defense's holes. IE: weakness to defending against mez attacks (which is a problem any S/L defense squishies will run into not carrying clarion), Psionic attacks (which elec has very respectable defense to), and radiation (which elec is capped to) attacks. For everything that gets through S/L defense, energize is there to heal/regen it off.|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
At higher levels, most villain groups carry significant defense debuffs. So without defense debuff resistance, what you'll discover is that the soft-capped S/L you're so proud of will vanish in an eyeblink if you jump into battle because S/L doesn't protect against most of those debuffs (they tend to be toxic, psionic or have huge accuracy bonuses against S/L).
Even excluding defense debuffs, the return on S/L defense is extremely low since Electric Armor already has such outstanding resists vs. S/L. When you're only taking 10% damage from a damage type, spending serious effort to cut it down further isn't all that useful. If you want to invest in a defense category, go for Ranged defense. Electric Armor's weak spots are Psionic, Toxic and Negative. Almost all of those attacks are delivered at range. |
The whole thing about defense being neutered by any defense debuffs if you don't have defense debuff resistance is typically blown out of proportion, and elec armor actually does quite well with them. Any rad blast enemies will fail to be a threat because even if they go through your defense you will still be sitting on 90% energy resist and good regen. Any machine gun -def will fail to threaten due to high s/l res and good regen. The only defense debuffs that actually pose a threat to my /elec brute is the IDF's [reveal weakness] which doesn't check for defense and stacked telepathist debuffs on the TPN if people aren't killing the telepathists. There are no psionic defense debuffs that I'm aware of or ones that specifically have high accuracy vs S/L. Toxic defense debuffs are only found in Arachnos and Arachnoids afaik, which aren't very common.
S/L defense doesn't just protect against S/L attacks. Here's a list of other things it will also be protecting against:
-Energy Melee/Energy Blast
-Any weapon attacks (this encompasses alot)
-any punching/kicking attacks (this encompasses alot)
-Ice blast/Ice melee (crey, cot, winter horde, and pretty common in Dark Astoria and DD)
-Dark Melee sans midnight grasp (one of Elecs lower resistance values)
-Fireball and Fire Melee sans Incinerate/Scorch
-kinetic melee (tsoo)
The only damage type Elec armor is capped to is energy resists, and even then taking less damage from energy blasts and energy melee is actually very nice, becuase they are so common, it does make a difference.
Electric armor actually has very respectable psionic resistance. It's actually better than everything else sans Dark Armor, stacked Ninjitsu, and Arachnos Widows. That's a farcry from actually being a weakspot. Toxic damage is extremely rare. Your S/L defense blocks most Smites/Shadow Punches/Shadow Mauls, leaving you only vulnerable to Dark Blast/Gloom. Almost all enemies that carry dark blast/gloom are also going to be carrying attacks that you do resist better, typically energize and the ~33% negative resist you have will be plenty to ward off any negative damage.
Going pure ranged defense on a melee toon is going to leave you taking alot more damage than you would be going S/L defense. Defense debuffs will trip up ranged defense just as much as S/L defense. And even having good resists to common things that S/L defense protects you from doesn't mean you're immune to them. If you're taking all those melee S/L attacks because you went ranged defense, it is going to hurt, and it is going to happen all the time, because of how common those attacks are.
I won't even get into how much more work it takes to build for Ranged defense compared to S/L defense either.
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Cimerorans, Malta and Knives of Artemis all have heightened accuracy -defense debuffs on virtually every attack made by minions. This means that within a 5 sec timeframe, you need to win every single roll on 30+ heightened accuracy attacks when you dive into a spawn to avoid a cascading defense failure. The chance of doing this with 45% S/L and the chance of doing this with 0% S/L are essentially the same.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
The whole thing about defense being neutered by any defense debuffs if you don't have defense debuff resistance is typically blown out of proportion, and elec armor actually does quite well with them.
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Longbow do ranged/energy defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense.
Arachnos do ranged/psionic defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense.
Carnival does ranged/negative defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense.
Devouring Earth do ranged/toxic defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense.
Praetorians do ranged/energy defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense.
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| The only defense debuffs that actually pose a threat to my /elec brute is the IDF's [reveal weakness] which doesn't check for defense and stacked telepathist debuffs on the TPN if people aren't killing the telepathists. |
The IDF's Reveal Weakness doesn't check against any typed defense. It does check against Ranged defense.
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| Going pure ranged defense on a melee toon is going to leave you taking alot more damage than you would be going S/L defense. Defense debuffs will trip up ranged defense just as much as S/L defense. |
1. Ranged debuffs on lt/bosses.
2. Melee debuffs on minions.
Melee debuffs from minions are inescapable. There simply isn't anything you can do but watch your defenses go red without defense debuff resistance. You could soft-cap every defense out there and you're still facing far too many attacks occurring far too frequently for the cascading failure to not occur.
The ranged debuffs are escapable. They're not on every attack and they're only from a very small number of enemies in any given spawn. So if you've got decent ranged defense, you have a strong chance of not getting debuffed at all.
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| And even having good resists to common things that S/L defense protects you from doesn't mean you're immune to them. If you're taking all those melee S/L attacks because you went ranged defense, it is going to hurt, and it is going to happen all the time, because of how common those attacks are. |
At that point, their Smashing/Lethal attacks simply don't matter. They're only using their weakest attacks at a slow rate and trying to pound through your heaviest resistances. You don't care about those attacks.
The attacks that will actually kill you are almost exclusively ranged attacks - Negative, Toxic and potentially Psionic.
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If this was a tanker, I'd agree with you. However, brutes do not have the luxury of easily hardcapped resistances, so softcapping S/L defense is very helpful.|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
At higher levels, most villain groups carry significant defense debuffs. So without defense debuff resistance, what you'll discover is that the soft-capped S/L you're so proud of will vanish in an eyeblink if you jump into battle because S/L doesn't protect against most of those debuffs (they tend to be toxic, psionic or have huge accuracy bonuses against S/L).
Even excluding defense debuffs, the return on S/L defense is extremely low since Electric Armor already has such outstanding resists vs. S/L. When you're only taking 10% damage from a damage type, spending serious effort to cut it down further isn't all that useful. If you want to invest in a defense category, go for Ranged defense. Electric Armor's weak spots are Psionic, Toxic and Negative. Almost all of those attacks are delivered at range. |
Mind you, softcapped S/L defense doesn't really "vanish in the blink of an eye". A softcapped brute can end up dying to the defense debuff failure cascade similarly to a non-softcapped brute, but the non-softcapped brute will get there several seconds faster. And those several seconds mean a lot, seeing as you can drain a spawn of endurance in that time.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
If I'm using barrier, I'll be capped on en, 67% s/l, 46.6% f/en with the initial build.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
If this was a tanker, I'd agree with you. However, brutes do not have the luxury of easily hardcapped resistances, so softcapping S/L defense is very helpful.
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With power surge I'll be dramatically over the cap in everything except psi. I anticipate that any time I'm using power surge, I'll probably do one of two things as it is ending: burnout->re-powersurge, if I keep that feature, or save barrier and pop barrier as it is ending, so I can power up my defenses while barrier is in 90%/90% mode. I anticipate only really extraordinary circumstances will require barrier to be used while surge is up, given the 90% Brute resist cap.
When I think about how it plays, I feel like I may not have a huge problem with melee simply because of all the knockdown. The three main AoEs carry 66%, 75%, 75% knockdowns, and that's a remarkably rare things to have any minion/lt resist.
It's a shame Mid's doesn't know to use the "switch to power" flag when build momentum is toggled on. It would be nice to see the momentum cast times. Does anyone have a good guide to TW attack chains and the interaction with momentum and recharge? The other X-factor of the "perfect TW/elec" build is - "How much +recharge do I need and how much am I giving up by slotting sets for defense instead?"
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It's a solid plan, but not without holes. You'll still have the endurance crash to deal with(can't power sink with no endurance), also, as someone who has tried employing similar strategies with power surge(using the phase shift temporary power), your timing may not always be perfect, and it will be painful when it isn't.|
Originally Posted by Plasma
If I'm using barrier, I'll be capped on en, 67% s/l, 46.6% f/en with the initial build.
With power surge I'll be dramatically over the cap in everything except psi. I anticipate that any time I'm using power surge, I'll probably do one of two things as it is ending: burnout->re-powersurge, if I keep that feature, or save barrier and pop barrier as it is ending, so I can power up my defenses while barrier is in 90%/90% mode. I anticipate only really extraordinary circumstances will require barrier to be used while surge is up, given the 90% Brute resist cap. |
Quote:
| When I think about how it plays, I feel like I may not have a huge problem with melee simply because of all the knockdown. The three main AoEs carry 66%, 75%, 75% knockdowns, and that's a remarkably rare things to have any minion/lt resist. |
Quote:
| It's a shame Mid's doesn't know to use the "switch to power" flag when build momentum is toggled on. It would be nice to see the momentum cast times. Does anyone have a good guide to TW attack chains and the interaction with momentum and recharge? The other X-factor of the "perfect TW/elec" build is - "How much +recharge do I need and how much am I giving up by slotting sets for defense instead?" |
Thinking about it further, since this is TW, you can rely on defensive sweep to get you to the melee softcap and build for 32.5% positional defenses. However I can say from experience that building for the S/L softcap is actually less slot intensive than building for M/R/A 32.5%, and brutes do not benefit much else from using defensive sweep(unlike tankers), so its use will lower your damage output.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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30+ attacks? Yeah I don't think so. I'm honestly curious if you even have a softcapped electric brute, because from what you're describing it doesn't sound like you do. Cause I do have one, and that's not how it plays out for me.|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
Cimerorans, Malta and Knives of Artemis all have heightened accuracy -defense debuffs on virtually every attack made by minions. This means that within a 5 sec timeframe, you need to win every single roll on 30+ heightened accuracy attacks when you dive into a spawn to avoid a cascading defense failure. The chance of doing this with 45% S/L and the chance of doing this with 0% S/L are essentially the same.
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| Longbow do ranged/energy defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense. |
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| Arachnos do ranged/psionic defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense. |
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| Carnival does ranged/negative defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense. |
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| Devouring Earth do ranged/toxic defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense. |
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| Praetorians do ranged/energy defense debuffs, which ignore S/L defense. |
Now responding to the sum of those above quotes, I think you're missing a huge point. The point being the point of defense isn't just to protect you from defense debuffs, it's to protect you from damage. And the most common damage you're going to facing will be checking for S/L defense, and just ranged defense on a melee toon is going to leave you with many more holes than going S/L would.
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Defense is meaningless in trials due to the sheer volume of defense buffs. The IDF's Reveal Weakness doesn't check against any typed defense. It does check against Ranged defense. |
There are two basic types of defense debuff:
1. Ranged debuffs on lt/bosses.
2. Melee debuffs on minions.
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| Melee debuffs from minions are inescapable. There simply isn't anything you can do but watch your defenses go red without defense debuff resistance. You could soft-cap every defense out there and you're still facing far too many attacks occurring far too frequently for the cascading failure to not occur. |
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The ranged debuffs are escapable. They're not on every attack and they're only from a very small number of enemies in any given spawn. So if you've got decent ranged defense, you have a strong chance of not getting debuffed at all. |
Also, even if you do take a defense debuff and you're down to 35% (most defense debuffs are 10%), that doesn't mean the rest of it is going to instantly vaporize either (which you seem to imply). And even if your defense does go into cadcading defense failure, you're still an electric brute, with high resists and energize to keep you alive.
The point of layered defense, is that it takes that much more time for enemies to penetrate each layer. They're first going to be checking against your defense, after which they'll be checking for your resistance, after which you still have about 2000 hp to kill them before you die. All those checks greatly increase the amount of time and amount of luck the enemies need to penetrate your defense and kill you, all the more time for you to kill them, which for a TW brute, you don't need much of.
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You're overlooking a critical factor unique to Electric Armor: 10 - 15 secs into the fight, your opponents no longer have any endurance. At that point, their Smashing/Lethal attacks simply don't matter. They're only using their weakest attacks at a slow rate and trying to pound through your heaviest resistances. You don't care about those attacks. |
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| The attacks that will actually kill you are almost exclusively ranged attacks - Negative, Toxic and potentially Psionic. |
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Build Momentum won't toggle it on, but there is a Momentum power you can toggle on in Mids, down next to Rest.|
Originally Posted by Plasma
It's a shame Mid's doesn't know to use the "switch to power" flag when build momentum is toggled on. It would be nice to see the momentum cast times. Does anyone have a good guide to TW attack chains and the interaction with momentum and recharge? The other X-factor of the "perfect TW/elec" build is - "How much +recharge do I need and how much am I giving up by slotting sets for defense instead?"
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I haven't played /Elec on a brute in years, so I cannot usefully comment on the value of various build strategies, but Arachnos has autohit defense debuffs; neither S/L nor ranged defense will save you from those, so on any build without high DDR, you can try to disable the tarantula mistress(es) before they debuff you, or use purple insps and etc to shrug off the debuffs, or power through and hope you run out of enemies before you run out of health. Building to prevent it isn't even on the table.
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It's actually a bit worse than 1 in 20 since most -defense debuffs are delivered by high accuracy attacks. And I'm not sure where you're getting the "1 in 400" bit from.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I honestly don't think you know how defense debuffs really work in this game, and what causes them. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but there's just alot of misinformation that you're saying. You realize that if you're softcapped it's a 1 in 20 chance that your defense will get lowered if the attack you are hit by lowers defense? And that if you have any defense buffs on you or you pop a purple insp you have a 1 in 400 chance of having your defense debuffed against attacks that debuff defense.
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The absolute floor for an attack to miss you is 5% * attacker's accuracy bonus. For example, an equal level (or higher) Archvillain will hit you about 1 in 10 times no matter what you do with your defense.
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| Also, even if you do take a defense debuff and you're down to 35% (most defense debuffs are 10%), that doesn't mean the rest of it is going to instantly vaporize either (which you seem to imply). And even if your defense does go into cadcading defense failure, you're still an electric brute, with high resists and energize to keep you alive. |
What you're doing is building a character who has unnecessary and unreliable extra defense against attacks you're not worried about in the first place - at the expense of gaping holes against attacks that will actually kill you. That's fine if you plan to make a farming toon that only faces one specific type of attack. But if you're planning to experience a broader range of content, it's a silly way to go about it.
I have a hard time believing you've actually played much of the high end content with Electric Armor if you haven't frequently experienced your defense going red even when you're soft-capped against the attack. In places like Dark Astoria and many of the high end task forces/missions, it's the rule rather than the exception.
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If you have, say, 55% defense, and you're hit with a 10% defense debuff that debuff will not be increasing the enemies chance to hit you, this means within the duration of that 10% defense debuff, the enemies will have to hit you with another defense debuff to alter their chance to hit you. For 2 consecutive attacks to hit you when you are above softcapped defense after the first defense debuff is a 1 in 400 chance (20*20=400)|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
It's actually a bit worse than 1 in 20 since most -defense debuffs are delivered by high accuracy attacks. And I'm not sure where you're getting the "1 in 400" bit from.
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| The absolute floor for an attack to miss you is 5% * attacker's accuracy bonus. For example, an equal level (or higher) Archvillain will hit you about 1 in 10 times no matter what you do with your defense. |
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| Which is precisely my point: if you're going to survive the cascading defense failure anyway, why would you build towards preventing it? |
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| What you're doing is building a character who has unnecessary and unreliable extra defense against attacks you're not worried about in the first place - at the expense of gaping holes against attacks that will actually kill you. That's fine if you plan to make a farming toon that only faces one specific type of attack. But if you're planning to experience a broader range of content, it's a silly way to go about it. |
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| I have a hard time believing you've actually played much of the high end content with Electric Armor if you haven't frequently experienced your defense going red even when you're soft-capped against the attack. In places like Dark Astoria and many of the high end task forces/missions, it's the rule rather than the exception. |
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The attacks don't need to be consecutive. In actuality, using a defense inspiration while you're at softcap will increase the average time it takes them to start the cascading defense failure about two-fold. However, this isn't particularly meaningful when they have about a 30% chance to start the cascading defense failure on the alpha strike.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
If you have, say, 55% defense, and you're hit with a 10% defense debuff that debuff will not be increasing the enemies chance to hit you, this means within the duration of that 10% defense debuff, the enemies will have to hit you with another defense debuff to alter their chance to hit you. For 2 consecutive attacks to hit you when you are above softcapped defense after the first defense debuff is a 1 in 400 chance (20*20=400)
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What you're really missing in this whole discussion is that you're espousing slotting to make trivial encounters even more trivial. Why would you slot so that enemies who can barely overcome your regeneration with their damage are slightly less threatening rather than slot for enemies who crash through your weak resists and do serious damage?
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60% S/L resist does not make those damage types trivial. I've been ripped apart by lethal attacks as /Invul, with higher S/L resist, more built-in defense to it, and more HP. And since S/L is dramatically more common than more exotic types, and many exotic attacks also check against S/L defense, it really does give the most bang per buck when you can only get one high defense in a build, as /Elec and other resist sets usually do.|
Originally Posted by Beauregard
What you're really missing in this whole discussion is that you're espousing slotting to make trivial encounters even more trivial. Why would you slot so that enemies who can barely overcome your regeneration with their damage are slightly less threatening rather than slot for enemies who crash through your weak resists and do serious damage?
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If it takes twice as long for cascade failure to set in, that's twice as long for you to kill them to death before it becomes a problem. With TW specifically, that can easily be the difference between dying halfway through a slow power, and knocking the whole spawn down with Whirling Smash.
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QFT, in it's entirety.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
60% S/L resist does not make those damage types trivial. I've been ripped apart by lethal attacks as /Invul, with higher S/L resist, more built-in defense to it, and more HP. And since S/L is dramatically more common than more exotic types, and many exotic attacks also check against S/L defense, it really does give the most bang per buck when you can only get one high defense in a build, as /Elec and other resist sets usually do.
If it takes twice as long for cascade failure to set in, that's twice as long for you to kill them to death before it becomes a problem. With TW specifically, that can easily be the difference between dying halfway through a slow power, and knocking the whole spawn down with Whirling Smash. |
Not much reason for the s/l vs. ranged debate with tw/elec. With defensive sweep giving melee def but only smashing def, it's fairly simple (but not cheap) to build for 32.5 def to all of the positionals, which is demonstrably better than just s/l in my experience. Maybe if defensive sweep boosted s/l instead of s/r there would be an argument for building just s/l, but here it's much better in the endgame to just go for a home run and cap the positionals which provides much better coverage. I usually build for s/l when building for positionals requires far too many build sacrifices to get there, so s/l does the job. But when it's not only possible but encouraged to build for significant positional defense (see defensive sweep), I see no reason not to pass up the Toyota and go for the Mercedes, metaphorically speaking.
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If you want to factor in Defensive Sweep as part as your defense though, that means actually using Defensive Sweep, which is a poor option for DPS. Using Defensive Sweep literally means trading damage for survivability (or just a cheaper build)
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Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Not much reason for the s/l vs. ranged debate with tw/elec. With defensive sweep giving melee def but only smashing def, it's fairly simple (but not cheap) to build for 32.5 def to all of the positionals, which is demonstrably better than just s/l in my experience. Maybe if defensive sweep boosted s/l instead of s/r there would be an argument for building just s/l, but here it's much better in the endgame to just go for a home run and cap the positionals which provides much better coverage. I usually build for s/l when building for positionals requires far too many build sacrifices to get there, so s/l does the job. But when it's not only possible but encouraged to build for significant positional defense (see defensive sweep), I see no reason not to pass up the Toyota and go for the Mercedes, metaphorically speaking.
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On my TW/Elec scrapper I went for 32.5% to all positions, you are 1 small purple away from the softcap when you need it, and then 1 Defensive Sweep away from the I-cap to melee (You can 1 slot the power with an LoTG because you will only use it when you absolutely have to).
In general across any toon that doesn't fly I have never found ranged defense to be as much value as s/l however, but I would still build for positionals, and I have found it it quite possible to get enough recharge and defense (Though not cheap!).
See my sig for my build (Bear in mind it is a scrapper though, so different epic pools).
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Again I suggest you look at Combat's thread- fairly good information in there.|
Originally Posted by Plasma
Does anyone have a good guide to TW attack chains and the interaction with momentum and recharge? The other X-factor of the "perfect TW/elec" build is - "How much +recharge do I need and how much am I giving up by slotting sets for defense instead?"
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To quote him:
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Originally Posted by Combat
Rather than show the best chain, let me show you a much more practical way of making an attack chain. Simply understand the natural order of attacks and you will optimize your attacks by yourself.
From these premises, we can surmise that we want to use the attacks in this priority: FT > RA > AoD (in momentum) > Crushing Blow. These powers will make up your single target attack chain. It should be noted, however, that AoD recharges in 20 seconds, limiting its use to once per chain even under the highest recharge rates, and most low-recharge builds won't have it up every chain. Therefore, I would recommend using whirling smash every other chain if AoD isn't up, because it still beats titan sweep and defensive sweep for DPA. So, under low recharge rates, an attack chain for scrappers would simply be using those powers every time they are up on a priority basis. That works much more intuitively than a set attack chain and is much more fun to play from what I've seen. At the high end, I believe the best plausible chain would still be RA-FT-AoD-CB-FT. That chain deals a base of 101 damage, meaning it would deal over 200 DPS with just 3 SOs of damage, not counting criticals, procs, or -res. That chain is ideal for several reasons. The first is that it is immediately reuseable, as the last follow-through will activate before momentum ends and finish after it ends. The second is that it is one of the few chains that can use two FTs per momentum. The third is that it has 3 chances to proc -res procs. For those wondering, the chains RA-FT-AoD-Gloom-FT and RA-FT-AoD-CB-FT are nearly functionally identical. Basically, the trade-off is 2 DPA and the difference between a -res proc and a purple proc. The brute build I use makes that tradeoff because it allows an additional purple set, but crushing blow is also equally viable and defensive sweep would be substituted for gloom or crushing blow in either case. PLEASE NOTE: this is for single target damage exclusively! If you are mainly focusing on AoE, the highest priority is Whirling Smash, ideally with the +recharge proc. If you want to do AoE damage, you shouldn't be using follow through, crushing blow, or rend armor. An AoE attack chain would be more like Arc of Destruction > Whirling Smash > Epic/Patron AoE > Titan Sweep > Whirling Smash. |
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
60% S/L resist does not make those damage types trivial. I've been ripped apart by lethal attacks as /Invul, with higher S/L resist, more built-in defense to it, and more HP. And since S/L is dramatically more common than more exotic types, and many exotic attacks also check against S/L defense, it really does give the most bang per buck when you can only get one high defense in a build, as /Elec and other resist sets usually do.
If it takes twice as long for cascade failure to set in, that's twice as long for you to kill them to death before it becomes a problem. With TW specifically, that can easily be the difference between dying halfway through a slow power, and knocking the whole spawn down with Whirling Smash. |
TW does a lot of damage, so you are not missing out if you decided to slot for +DAM. Accolades can be obtained to gain you +HP, and you also have a self-heal in your armor set which can be used. PLUS if you are building for the "best" chain, purple sets have a 3% boost to +HP in them - as do some of the other IO sets which grant +Def.
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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swap Super Speed for taunt, if you think you need it.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.954
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Itaal'h Itchak: Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Titan Weapons
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Crushing Blow -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Charged Armor -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam(9)
Level 2: Titan Sweep -- Erad-Dmg/Rchg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Erad-Dmg(11), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(13)
Level 4: Lightning Field -- Erad-Acc/Rchg(A), Erad-Dmg(17), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), EndRdx-I(19)
Level 6: Conductive Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(21), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), RctvArm-ResDam(23)
Level 8: Follow Through -- SBrutesF-Acc/Dmg(A), SBrutesF-Dmg/Rchg(21), SBrutesF-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(25), SBrutesF-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SBrutesF-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SBrutesF-Rech/Fury(27)
Level 10: Static Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(29), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(29), RctvArm-ResDam(31)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Build Momentum -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(31)
Level 16: Grounded -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(31)
Level 18: Rend Armor -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), Achilles-ResDeb%(34)
Level 20: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(34), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(36), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 24: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(36), RctvArm-EndRdx(37), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(37)
Level 26: Whirling Smash -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Armgdn-Dmg(39), FrcFbk-Rechg%(40)
Level 28: Energize -- Panac-Heal/EndRedux(A), Panac-EndRdx/Rchg(40), Panac-Heal/Rchg(40), Panac-Heal/EndRedux/Rchg(42), Panac-Heal(42)
Level 30: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(42), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(43)
Level 32: Arc of Destruction -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(43), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(43), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), FotG-ResDeb%(45)
Level 35: Power Sink -- Annoy-Taunt(A), Annoy-Taunt/Rchg(46), Annoy-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(46), EndMod-I(46), EndMod-I(48)
Level 38: Super Speed -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(48), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(48)
Level 44: Power Surge -- BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(50)
Level 47: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 49: Tactics -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(50)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Agility Radial Paragon
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Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(15)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 1: Momentum
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English isn't my birth language, so don't blame me if I do some mistakes. thank you !
I rolled a TW/Elec. It's thematic, so I'm opting to deal with the shortcomings. What I'm wondering is: does it make sense to bother going through the trouble of "soft capping" S/L? And when I say soft capping, I mean that using barrier+agility, I'd always be at at least 45% S/L, but it would only be 40% without barrier. (Obviously a lot more when barrier was just up.)
Having gone through all the trouble to softcap against just S/L on a spec where my secondary provides zero defense of any kind, I end up wondering if it is at all worth it. Still, the idea of 45% S/L while power surge is running is sort of amusing.
Has anyone tried this stunt? Did it feel worthwhile in practice? Is there a better way to go about it?
Note that I've slotted Whirling Smash with 6 EndRed, but that's intended to be the Brute's Fury set, with half catalyzed to get a 7.5% total S/L defense bonus out of the set bonuses.
Here's the build: