Anyway, Synapse said he may have found the problem.
I am seeing what the problem is though. The problem is that the hidden buff isn't double applying. What it's actually doing is running the power attributes again. It seems like the power's attributes aren't cancelling like they should be.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
This is based on using the proc on Beta as I haven't slotted it on Live.
-Which ATO do you have slotted? (Standard or Superior)
Superior (slotted in Assassin's Blade)
-What is your attack chain that makes these problems obvious?
Ablating Strike > Sweeping Strike > Ablating Strike > Assassin's Blade
-What is the behavior you expect?
Assassin's Blade putting me into Hidden, causing the following Ablating Strike to crit.
-Is there an attack chain that always works?
Haven't found one, but I have very few attacks and didn't specifically test for this. Throwing in Power Slice (the only other attack in my build that's not part of my attack chain or an EPP ranged power) enough to extend the time between Assassin's Blades to 10+ seconds should allow it to always work, at a large hit to DPS.
-Please list your +recharge rate. It's important to know if you are stacking procs or not.
Minimum of 201.25% recharge, max is 261.25%, varies due to Ageless Core Epiphany's scaling buff. This includes perma-Hasten.
Good news!
Synapse said...
It is now fixed internally. It should now proc only once every 10 seconds and there won't be any second application of the effect. It is also slightly more likely to play nice with offensive toggles.
Getting a critical every time 10s is good IMO. Getting a critical every time a-strike lands sounds too good to me.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Thanks for letting us know. It's been kind of disappointing that this was the only AT that could potentially perform worse with their ATO proc slotted, so it'll be great having it fixed for I22 when we'll be able to make better use of it slotted into AS in combat, which seems to be the most popular place to slot it.
Every 10 seconds is still a good amount of extra damage, even if it works out to only occuring every other time through an attack chain for some.
Quote:
Assassin Strike will be a good place and you can count the timer based on a-strike's recharge.|
Originally Posted by Kage
Thanks for letting us know. It's been kind of disappointing that this was the only AT that could potentially perform worse with their ATO proc slotted, so it'll be great having it fixed for I22 when we'll be able to make better use of it slotted into AS in combat, which seems to be the most popular place to slot it.
Every 10 seconds is still a good amount of extra damage, even if it works out to only occuring every other time through an attack chain for some. |
With the proc not stacking, it should fix the "interruptable" assassin strike during attack chain.
One critical every 10s sounds good enough to me. The trick is to use it with a big hitter or pbaoe, then it's worth it.
Are other ATOs really that good? Dominator's sounds pretty good. What about Scrapper's? Do they get that many more critical out of it? I was testing Blaster's proc with my Dark Blast. I put it in Gaze since Gaze has base 20s recharge so it's 100% chance (overkill). The extra damage is nice but it's not as high as a good critical hit because you can't improve proc's damage with +damage (only from -resist) but a Stalker critical can benefit greatly from both +damage and -resist.
I later unslot the proc and put it in an aoe. I think blaster proc works better in an aoe with 12s or longer recharge.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Really? Most people say the ato dmg procs are awful in aoes. I've noticed the same with the ato dmg proc i put in my corruptor's fireball which seems to proc less than than the positrons blast dmg proc i had in it previously.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I later unslot the proc and put it in an aoe. I think blaster proc works better in an aoe with 12s or longer recharge.
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Quote:
I'm not really familiar enough with the other procs, but it seems like ATO effectiveness is going to vary from one person to another based on both their powersets and their build. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Are other ATOs really that good? |
For example, my build will be able to make really good use of the Stalker proc since going through my optimal attack chain twice takes only a little over 10 seconds. If instead of being slightly over 10 seconds it was slightly under 10, I would need to go through my attack chain 3 times to get a crit rather than 2, getting roughly 33% less procs in extended combat, or adjust my attack chain to make better use of the proc which may or may not result in a DPS increase. So while Stalkers can get a proc every 10 seconds, not everyone likely will be getting them that often, or adjusting for it won't result in as large of a DPS increase due to using a less effective attack chain.
Quote:
Well, as Dark Blast, I don't have a 10s attack to make that proc happens more often. The regular is 4/min so to make it happen 100%, I would need an attack with at least 15s recharge. Gaze is 20s so it can proc 100% of the time. |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Really? Most people say the ato dmg procs are awful in aoes. I've noticed the same with the ato dmg proc i put in my corruptor's fireball which seems to proc less than than the positrons blast dmg proc i had in it previously.
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I don't know. It was just a brief test. I put it in the aoe knock back power and it seems to happen pretty often. When I play my Dark Blaster, I prefer to open the battle with that aoe knock back and that extra proc damage is enough to help me kill off minions.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
By the way, the regular proc 100% in a 15s recharge attack. What about the Superior version? What recharge does it need to proc 100%?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think 10s with every a-strike hit is harder than it looks because if you have a fast attack chain and the 2nd a-strike hits right under 10s, then you need 3rd attack chain to get it. I am not going to delay second a-strike because of that proc because critical a-strike hits harder and faster.|
Originally Posted by Kage
For example, my build will be able to make really good use of the Stalker proc since going through my optimal attack chain twice takes only a little over 10 seconds. If instead of being slightly over 10 seconds it was slightly under 10, I would need to go through my attack chain 3 times to get a crit rather than 2, getting roughly 33% less procs in extended combat, or adjust my attack chain to make better use of the proc which may or may not result in a DPS increase.
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I guess I'll just tell myself not to care too much about it. If it happens, it happens. I mean critical is critical.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
More info from Synapse. (I only copy and paste his PM here because it's really not a "personal private" matter that can't be seen by others. It's only about how the proc works and how we can fix it) I figure it is easier to just copy and paste what he says to reduce confusion/questions.
If memory serves... 15s recharge powers should have a 100% chance to proc, but only once within a 10 second activation window. This doesn't mean once every 10 seconds though. Imagine time being broken up into 10 second chunks. A proc can occur in each of those chunks once. So you might have procs at the end of one chunk and the beginning of the next making it seem like it procs more than it should. That's just how activation time works on auto powers (enhancements are just fancy auto powers).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
So I hope he looks at the brute and dominator procs as well, as they proc EVERYTIME I use the power I slot them in. I am not certain about the Brute proc but I know the dominator proc is using the same tech as the stalker one.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
More info from Synapse. (I only copy and paste his PM here because it's really not a "personal private" matter that can't be seen by others. It's only about how the proc works and how we can fix it) I figure it is easier to just copy and paste what he says to reduce confusion/questions.
If memory serves... 15s recharge powers should have a 100% chance to proc, but only once within a 10 second activation window. This doesn't mean once every 10 seconds though. Imagine time being broken up into 10 second chunks. A proc can occur in each of those chunks once. So you might have procs at the end of one chunk and the beginning of the next making it seem like it procs more than it should. That's just how activation time works on auto powers (enhancements are just fancy auto powers). |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
The regular dominator proc gives 21% damage boost for how long? And they can stack up to 3 times? |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
So I hope he looks at the brute and dominator procs as well, as they proc EVERYTIME I use the power I slot them in. I am not certain about the Brute proc but I know the dominator proc is using the same tech as the stalker one.
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Well, you basically get a critical once every 12-15s with stalker's proc. The tough part is you may not use a heavy hitter with that critical.
I guess somebody can compare the two procs mathematically. Maybe dominator's proc is too good? How does the damage proc from blaster, corr and controller compare?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
I can perma 63% bonus on my dominator.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The regular dominator proc gives 21% damage boost for how long? And they can stack up to 3 times?
Well, you basically get a critical once every 12-15s with stalker's proc. The tough part is you may not use a heavy hitter with that critical. I guess somebody can compare the two procs mathematically. Maybe dominator's proc is too good? How does the damage proc from blaster, corr and controller compare? |
I just think its crazy that people are asking the stalker proc to be reduced in effectiveness when you have the Tanker, Dominator and Brute procs completely redefining characters.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
I have the Dom proc in Roots and I don't see it proccing every time I use Roots. Where do you have it slotted? I know they nerfed the AOE-powers-have-more-chances-to-proc thing, so perhaps Roots is a big fail for it. |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I can perma 63% bonus on my dominator.
I just think its crazy that people are asking the stalker proc to be reduced in effectiveness when you have the Tanker, Dominator and Brute procs completely redefining characters. |
I couldn't find a control power I used more often except maybe Seeds.
Quote:
Seismic Smash.
|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I have the Dom proc in Roots and I don't see it proccing every time I use Roots. Where do you have it slotted? I know they nerfed the AOE-powers-have-more-chances-to-proc thing, so perhaps Roots is a big fail for it.
I couldn't find a control power I used more often except maybe Seeds. |
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Mmmmm, how long does dominator proc last? I am assuming 10s just like Stalker proc? Seismic Smash has 20s base recharge so it should have 100% chance. How can you stack it 3 times unless the duration lasts longer than 10s? |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I can perma 63% bonus on my dominator.
I just think its crazy that people are asking the stalker proc to be reduced in effectiveness when you have the Tanker, Dominator and Brute procs completely redefining characters. |
Maybe I'll ask Synapse about it. :P All I know is he said all proc activation time is at 10s because I asked him if he can reduce Stalker proc's duration to avoid stacking problem.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
The Dom and tank procs must be long duration.
Keeping 3 stacks is trivial.
On beta I can get a crit after every AS in my KM attack chain, are the changes you are driving going to reduce that?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
I am curious how you get critical after every AS. Do you have an attack chain longer than 10s? Or do you mean you get a critical after the initial AS? |
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
The Dom and tank procs must be long duration.
Keeping 3 stacks is trivial. On beta I can get a crit after every AS in my KM attack chain, are the changes you are driving going to reduce that? |
I've been testing with MA and Elec and I can't get a critical after each AS that lands. And that's because the proc is only supposed to grant a hidden status (but no placate effect) once every 10s. The bug some of us are seeing is how we would do the attack chain but suddenly a-strike becomes "interruptable" even though we did not use placate.
And I wasn't trying to ask to reduce the chance of critical effect. I thought the stacking proc is what's causing the bug so I asked synapse to just reduce the duration but he said that's not possible because all proc activation is at 10s and he won't change that.
By the way, can Scrapper stack their increased critical chance or not?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Ah, I think I misunderstood then in regard to the stalker proc changes.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am curious how you get critical after every AS. Do you have an attack chain longer than 10s? Or do you mean you get a critical after the initial AS?
I've been testing with MA and Elec and I can't get a critical after each AS that lands. And that's because the proc is only supposed to grant a hidden status (but no placate effect) once every 10s. The bug some of us are seeing is how we would do the attack chain but suddenly a-strike becomes "interruptable" even though we did not use placate. And I wasn't trying to ask to reduce the chance of critical effect. I thought the stacking proc is what's causing the bug so I asked synapse to just reduce the duration but he said that's not possible because all proc activation is at 10s and he won't change that. By the way, can Scrapper stack their increased critical chance or not? |
On Beta I am having no problem maintaining BU via the crit the proc provides.
Very interested in keeping that.
I haven't bought a Scrapper proc, but as far as I know its a global bonus like a LOTG. Slot it anywhere all powers are affected by the flat bonus.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Well, let's just compare Stalker's proc to Scrapper's.
Scrapper gets like +2% extra critical on minions and +4% on higher ranks. That's like 7% and 14% and higher for superior version?
Maybe somebody can do maths on this. Stalker gets a critical about 11-15s depending on your attack chain.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
You use assassin strike then concentrated right after? Weird. I thought I tested this last week and I couldn't get 100% critical right after a-strike? I need to test Kinetic more. Maybe Kinetic is different?
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
On Beta I am having no problem maintaining BU via the crit the proc provides.
Very interested in keeping that. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Let me try some simplifying assumptions:|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Scrapper gets like +2% extra critical on minions and +4% on higher ranks. That's like 7% and 14% and higher for superior version?
Maybe somebody can do maths on this. Stalker gets a critical about 11-15s depending on your attack chain. |
Let's assume a character makes 1 attack per second, and that all enemies are Lt or above. We'll also assume that the stalker proc goes off exactly every 15 seconds.
So, with +4% crit per attack, the scrapper ATO gives .6 extra crits in 15 seconds. With the Scrapper melee mod, this is worth .675 Stalker crits.
The Stalker ATO gives .69 to .9 extra crits in the same period, depending on team size (because the attack might have crit anyway without the proc).
So, with some oversimplifications, the Stalker comes out ahead. But how much has this been distorted by the simplifications I've made?
First, I assumed a character makes 10 attacks in 10 seconds. This is far more than a real attack chain will make, and dramatically favors the scrapper in this comparison, probably by about a factor of 2 for most actual chains.
I also assumed that all enemies are LTs or higher. This also favors the scrapper, because their crit bonus is worth less against minions.
I assumed that the Stalker proc goes off exactly every 15 seconds, which is reasonably accurate, although some chains can do a bit better.
Finally, it's worth noting that the Scrapper crit bonus is spread across all their attacks, while the Stalker can structure their attack chain to get the bonus crit on a good attack.
So, according to this back-of-the-envelope calculation, even after the i22 buff, the Stalker ATO proc should be significantly better than the Scrapper version. However, the Superior Scrapper proc is half-again as good, and the Superior Stalker proc isn't really an improvement, so that narrows the margin somewhat.
This also only compares to the Scrapper proc, and it's not clear how that compares to the other ATO procs.
Quote:
Yeah, Scrapper's superior version is definitely an improvement. Stalker's regular proc already gives AS 100% critical (will need to test this again once the new change is live) so the superior version doesn't really improve anything unless you put the proc in an attack that has less than 15s recharge. To avoid "interruptable" assassin strike during attack chain, the best place to put it is still Assassin Strike IMO. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
So, according to this back-of-the-envelope calculation, even after the i22 buff, the Stalker ATO proc should be significantly better than the Scrapper version. However, the Superior Scrapper proc is half-again as good, and the Superior Stalker proc isn't really an improvement, so that narrows the margin somewhat.
This also only compares to the Scrapper proc, and it's not clear how that compares to the other ATO procs. |
Well, maybe other ATO procs are too good? I mean I can't imagine allowing a 21ish% damage buff to stack up to 3 times? That's like a constant 60% damage buff? Excuse me?! I really don't think a single proc can provide up to 60% damage buff. That just doesn't sound logical to me. It's either bugged or the stacking icons don't actually give 60% damage buff.
A single proc that gives a critical once every 12-15s sounds good.
A single proc that gives 21% damage buff for 10s sounds good too.
A single proc that gives up to 60% damage buff sounds ridiculous!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I PMed Synapse about the bug and he said he'll look into it after issue 22 came out. He does want more info so if you can, please do the following:
Also, can you do me a favor? Can you give me the following information?
-Which ATO do you have slotted? (Standard or Superior)
-What is your attack chain that makes these problems obvious?
-What is the behavior you expect?
-Is there an attack chain that always works?
I want to get more info for him so he can look into it more later but I don't have time to test all the tests and possible attack chains. I want to forward this thread to him once we have more details so please just focus on the topic and be specific.
Edit: All ATO proc activation time is 10s which can't be changed. I did suggest reducing timer down to 5s or less to avoid stacking procs.
Edit 2: Please list your +recharge rate. It's important to know if you are stacking procs or not.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.