City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Help me choose a kinetics character.

Beauregard

By Beauregard,
Posted on: 2012-01-27 05:54 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken_Wings View Post
I greatly enjoyed my role in the Positron and Synapse TFs.
And really, in this game that's all that is important. A /kin controller is a powerful character for sure... If you're pondering it, make one and play it for a full play session, see if you enjoy it. I personally don't like kin playstyle but it is a great set and I always love to see someone else playing it that is enjoying themselves.

 

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
This is the sort of comment that really makes me wonder if the poster actually plays the game. Except in very long AV/GM fights, Defenders tend to be constantly switching targets rather than concentrating on one target because the targets don't live that long.

To generalize a great deal, Sonic blast powers do 30% less damage in anticipation of the fact that you'll do 40% more once you've used two powers. Which is a nice scheme except for the fact that you won't ever get a chance to use that third (and subsequent) power on the bulk of what you fight.

It's also a scheme that really falls apart when significant parts of your 'rotation' are non-Sonic abilities from your primary.

Even on AV/GM fights - where you do blast away repeatedly on the same target - shaving 5 secs off the fight is far less important than actually surviving the fight in the first place.

That's why "good single target damage" tends to be the "she has a nice personality" of power set descriptions. Single target damage isn't really what matters in a Blast set - you're going to get very similar performance from virtually any Blast set in that regard.
A Kin/Sonic could probably solo a GM and duo the game with an aggro soaker. ST damage is actually pretty important if you're a player who likes to be self reliant. Not to mention against tough targets even in a team environment, stacking the -res from the Sonic chain is increasing the damage of your whole team.

 

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Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
And really, in this game that's all that is important. A /kin controller is a powerful character for sure... If you're pondering it, make one and play it for a full play session, see if you enjoy it. I personally don't like kin playstyle but it is a great set and I always love to see someone else playing it that is enjoying themselves.
Hehe, yea, for some reason I thing for making other people awesome.. I can't really explain it, it's just the way I am.

 

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Originally Posted by Broken_Wings View Post
Hehe, yea, for some reason I thing for making other people awesome.. I can't really explain it, it's just the way I am.
I get it, I've played a lot of "support" characters and do enjoy turning the volume on a team up to 11...

 

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Originally Posted by MaHaBone23 View Post
The breathless, white-knuckled drama in this thread aside, I'd throw in another vote for Earth/Kin trollers.
Not sure what this Beauregard person's problem is, but I looked over some of his other posts and it seems his specialty is spewing out crap that might look reasonable at first glance (because NUMBERS! I HAVE NUMBERS!), but falls apart if you look closer. In another thread he compares single target chains for different sets and assumes 570%ish recharge required for one set's top chain. The most recharge any power can benefit from is 400%.

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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
A Kin/Sonic could probably solo a GM and duo the game with an aggro soaker. ST damage is actually pretty important if you're a player who likes to be self reliant. Not to mention against tough targets even in a team environment, stacking the -res from the Sonic chain is increasing the damage of your whole team.
I duoed a good portion of the game with my Kin/Sonic defender and a buddy playing a something/dark armor scrapper. Everything low rank just melts, and all that's really needed is single target cleanup. Also against hard targets Sonic blast not only has fairly good single target damage, it amplified his damage quite a bit. Don't remember if we ever tried a GM, but we did a bunch of AVs and a few TFs.

Side note: Damage debuffs, like siphon power and fulcrum shift do are resisted by enemy damage resistances (if an enemy is dealing smashing damage, any smashing resistance they have resists damage debuffs for that type). I'm not sure when the resistance calculates into it, but resistance debuffs might amplify Kin's damage debuffs. I should test that sometime.

Culex's resistance guide

 

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Originally Posted by Pitho View Post
Not sure what this Beauregard person's problem is, but I looked over some of his other posts and it seems his specialty is spewing out crap that might look reasonable at first glance (because NUMBERS! I HAVE NUMBERS!), but falls apart if you look closer. In another thread he compares single target chains for different sets and assumes 570%ish recharge required for one set's top chain. The most recharge any power can benefit from is 400%.
And you'll note that I specifically stated that the level of recharge necessary to make that chain work was impossible. So I have to wonder why you're intentionally trying to mislead people here.

The reality is that Kinetics/Sonics is a classic "it looked good on paper!" build that fools a lot of people. They think of it as "damage buffing and resistance debuffing" when the reality is that it's "damage buffing or resistance debuffing". You can do one or the other well. You can't do both because you don't have the time.

But every time I point out this simple truth, Sonic fanboys come out of the work to spew nonsense like "you can stack up to 100% resistance debuffs!".

If you enjoy playing Sonic Blast with Kinetics, go right ahead. But if you switch to a different blast set, you'll almost certainly notice a marked improvement in your capabilities.

 

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
And you'll note that I specifically stated that the level of recharge necessary to make that chain work was impossible.
Not until someone pointed out that it's impossible.

You don't follow facts. You follow truthiness.

Culex's resistance guide

 

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Originally Posted by Pitho View Post
Not until someone pointed out that it's impossible.
No, I actually pointed it out in the same post as the numbers. Which makes sense - the entire point of listing those numbers was to demonstrate the same "theory is not reality" point I've been making here.

 

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
And you'll note that I specifically stated that the level of recharge necessary to make that chain work was impossible. So I have to wonder why you're intentionally trying to mislead people here.

The reality is that Kinetics/Sonics is a classic "it looked good on paper!" build that fools a lot of people. They think of it as "damage buffing and resistance debuffing" when the reality is that it's "damage buffing or resistance debuffing". You can do one or the other well. You can't do both because you don't have the time.

But every time I point out this simple truth, Sonic fanboys come out of the work to spew nonsense like "you can stack up to 100% resistance debuffs!".

If you enjoy playing Sonic Blast with Kinetics, go right ahead. But if you switch to a different blast set, you'll almost certainly notice a marked improvement in your capabilities.
Wait a second...

Don't have the time? Don't have the time to do both? WTF?

Siphon Power lasts 30 seconds.

Fulcrum Shift lasts 45 seconds. While SP recharges faster than duration and FS can be brought under duration, that's a fair bit of time to be slamming in some sonic attacks.

There's nothing that says you can hit FS, SP, attack, attack, attack, SP, attack, FS, PS, attack.

And while I'm on the subject, your also saying that it would be better with a different blast set that, you at least suggest even if not by intention, would still not be used on teams.

Kin/Son has a great potential giving out both +dam and -res. With a good player behind both can be used to their best effects.

 

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
And you'll note that I specifically stated that the level of recharge necessary to make that chain work was impossible. So I have to wonder why you're intentionally trying to mislead people here.

The reality is that Kinetics/Sonics is a classic "it looked good on paper!" build that fools a lot of people. They think of it as "damage buffing and resistance debuffing" when the reality is that it's "damage buffing or resistance debuffing". You can do one or the other well. You can't do both because you don't have the time.
Against single targets, ie, some of the long AV fights in Incarnate trials, if there are no adds around for FS you'll actually be doing more to increase the damage of your team mates by focusing on your secondary. At that point, all you need to do is fit Transfusion into your attack chain for the -regen.

Granted a Cold/ or Rad/ would be a better choice IMO, but that's not to say that a Kin/Sonic can't do very impressive things if played correctly. Maybe the problem is more that you suck at playing Sonic than anything else you're saying.
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But every time I point out this simple truth, Sonic fanboys come out of the work to spew nonsense like "you can stack up to 100% resistance debuffs!".
Well I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I can tell you that Sonic is the best secondary for Defenders in the game and that's a fact.
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If you enjoy playing Sonic Blast with Kinetics, go right ahead. But if you switch to a different blast set, you'll almost certainly notice a marked improvement in your capabilities.
Really? The only sets I would say that are *bad* to play with Kin are Energy/Psi Blast (KB's things out of FS range) and weapon sets (redraw+Kin=bad.) After that it's between Rad, Sonic, Fire, Dark and Ice.

Rad blast is probably the next best choice after sonic, followed by Ice. Fire is so retardedly good on a Corruptor that you'd be stupid to play it on a Defender. Dark is very controlly, I guess an argument could be made for pairing it with Kin but it wouldn't have anywhere near the solo potential of Monster/AV hunting that Sonic does- Then again, nothing would. Sonic has the most potential to be useful in a team environment also- Like it's been pointed out already, the -res on Defender's Sonic is beastly. Rad, Dark, and Ice Blast's secondary effects are going to be heavily resisted by AV's and GM's so when it comes to tough fights, Sonic wins every time. When it comes to mowing down fields of adds, you're a Kin regardless so your best contribution is going to be your Primary regardless of what you pair it with.

 

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Originally Posted by DoctorWhat View Post
And while I'm on the subject, your also saying that it would be better with a different blast set that, you at least suggest even if not by intention, would still not be used on teams.
Truthiness.

Culex's resistance guide

 

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Not a fanboi of sonic except that it is a good set. I have some semi-retired sonic attack characters, none that I'm playing actively at this time. What I don't like is the misinformation being spewed by Beauregard disguised as facts "because he has numbers". He's using bad math wrongly to make a point and my concern is that someone may read what he's spewing and believe it.

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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
Well I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I can tell you that Sonic is the best secondary for Defenders in the game and that's a fact.
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...d.Sonic_Attack

Sonic chain consists of shriek, scream in various combinations as fast as you can tap 'em. Each puts out 20% -resist (on defenders), shriek's res debuff lasts for 5 seconds and scream's lasts 7... you can squeeze up to 5 of these -res on a target. This -resist stacks. I have not tested, but I don't believe it stacks additively (ie. I *think* you don't get 5x-20, but you get 1 -20%, 1 -20% of whatever is left, 1 -20% of whatever is left etc... not a straight up -100%) See below.... I am incorrect in this thought and it DOES stack additively (i.e. a straight up -100%)

 

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Originally Posted by MikeRobe View Post
Not a fanboi of sonic except that it is a good set. I have some semi-retired sonic attack characters, none that I'm playing actively at this time. What I don't like is the misinformation being spewed by Beauregard disguised as facts "because he has numbers". He's using bad math wrongly to make a point and my concern is that someone may read what he's spewing and believe it.



http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...d.Sonic_Attack

Sonic chain consists of shriek, scream in various combinations as fast as you can tap 'em. Each puts out 20% -resist (on defenders), shriek's res debuff lasts for 5 seconds and scream's lasts 7... you can squeeze up to 5 of these -res on a target. This -resist stacks. I have not tested, but I don't believe it stacks additively (ie. I *think* you don't get 5x-20, but you get 1 -20%, 1 -20% of whatever is left, 1 -20% of whatever is left etc... not a straight up -100%)
It stacks additively. I happen to be playing a sonic character at this very second and just used Power Analyzer to verify.

Your first paragraph is my main concern too, that a newbie may erroneously be swayed.

Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
It stacks additively. I happen to be playing a sonic character at this very second and just used Power Analyzer to verify.

Your first paragraph is my main concern too, that a newbie may erroneously be swayed.
I stand corrected, thanks for checking that.

 

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I enjoy the fast recharging nuke on my kin/Dual pistols. People seem to forget that fulcrum shift is also a debuff. -25% damage for 30s. That stacks well with the 8s of -25% damage in Hail of Bullets and the 8s of -12.5 damage in Bullet Rain. You also get -12.5 for 6s with the cone attack for when HoB is down. And that is just the AoE. Siphon Power and single target attacks and you can get some decent -damage on hard targets that do not resist it heavily.
If Debuffs are not needed you always have fire ammo to up the damage a bit more.

If redraw bothers you though, don't bother...

 

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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
Against single targets, ie, some of the long AV fights in Incarnate trials, if there are no adds around for FS you'll actually be doing more to increase the damage of your team mates by focusing on your secondary. At that point, all you need to do is fit Transfusion into your attack chain for the -regen.
What Fulcrum Shift does is summon two pseudo-pets. One is on the player, one on the target. The one on the player increases the damage done by all players within 20 feet by 50%. The one on the target reduces all damage on enemies within 30 feet by 25% and increases the damage done by allies within 20 feet by 25% per enemy. Note that this stacks with any previous Fulcrum Shift/Siphon Power.

If you're in close proximity to the target, that means your Fulcrum Shift provides not just a stacking 25% damage debuff but a stacking 75% damage buff to all allies.

You're not going to find an ability in your secondary that will be even close to as effective as Fulcrum Shift on a single target.

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Well I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I can tell you that Sonic is the best secondary for Defenders in the game and that's a fact.
No, it's a theory expounded by someone who obviously has limited experience with the game.

In the bulk of the game, enemies simply don't live long enough for the resistance debuffs to matter - especially since Sonic's activation times are generally longer for similar effects. Landing a resistance debuff when you're the last person to blast the mob isn't very useful.

So really the only time Sonic gets out of the basement in terms of performance is potentially AV/GM fights and solo. Solo, Sonic is horrible because of it's weak survivability. Those same long activation times mean Sonic is fairly immobile and it's control options tend to be slow and clunky.

That leaves AV/GM fights. Where Sonic can potentially be useful.

But not as a Kinetics, where you simply don't have the time to stack those resistance debuffs.

 

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
What Fulcrum Shift does is summon two pseudo-pets. One is on the player, one on the target. The one on the player increases the damage done by all players within 20 feet by 50%. The one on the target reduces all damage on enemies within 30 feet by 25% and increases the damage done by allies within 20 feet by 25% per enemy. Note that this stacks with any previous Fulcrum Shift/Siphon Power.

If you're in close proximity to the target, that means your Fulcrum Shift provides not just a stacking 25% damage debuff but a stacking 75% damage buff to all allies.

You're not going to find an ability in your secondary that will be even close to as effective as Fulcrum Shift on a single target.
Way to copypasta someone else's post, from like.. 2 threads down? lol.


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No, it's a theory expounded by someone who obviously has limited experience with the game.
Have you... Been paying attention to this thread? It's clear to everyone reading this now that you are the one with limited knowledge. I'm not playing with you anymore. You'll have to find someone else to argue with. Your logic is too flawed in too many ways. Everyone knows Sonic rules.

 

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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy View Post
Have you... Been paying attention to this thread? It's clear to everyone reading this now that you are the one with limited knowledge. I'm not playing with you anymore. You'll have to find someone else to argue with. Your logic is too flawed in too many ways. Everyone knows Sonic rules.
Might I suggest that instead of trolling these threads with bad (and incorrect) advice, you spend some time reading them and learning instead?

You very clearly demonstrated you had no idea what you were talking about or how Kinetics Defenders play at high levels. So flailing about and trying to bluster does your reputation little good. When you're wrong, just admit it and try to learn from your mistakes.

 

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Originally Posted by Beauregard View Post
Might I suggest that instead of trolling these threads with bad (and incorrect) advice, you spend some time reading them and learning instead?

You very clearly demonstrated you had no idea what you were talking about or how Kinetics Defenders play at high levels. So flailing about and trying to bluster does your reputation little good. When you're wrong, just admit it and try to learn from your mistakes.

If anyone is trolling this thread, it's you. You're presenting misinformation that has been dismissed by everyone but... Well, yourself. You can stop trying to bait me because I already told you I'm not playing anymore.

 

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Since I have both a ice/kin and a kin/ice, I guess I can respond somewhat to this question. So your first answer would be, check what other folks are playing. That is usually a good clue to which is the better choice. While folks keep talking up sonic, you don't see that many on teams in my experience. Yes, they're great with AVs and GMs but so are alot of other power sets. As for most mobs, alot of the teams I run with don't give you alot of time to do more then a single attack chain on most. Really once you hit FS, its mop the floor time.

So of the two, I had alot of fun with my ice/kin... one of the safest toons I ever played. And hell, I even enjoyed playing her when I had to SB everyone on the team one at a time! Problem is, she doesn't keep up with the rest on damage once pass 38th level. But she still was the funnest character I ever leveled, even back in the days of when Hollows was a nasty zone. I was so sad the day I outleveled Hollows, cus I was having so much fun fighting Igneous.

My kin/ice fender is more a theme build on max slowness vs mobs and such. Likely she see a delete here sooner or later.


But it should be noted, I'm not a member of "trying to be everything for the team" club. Kinetics brings alot to the table already, so if sonic doesn't seem fun to you then don't keep playing it just because it brings a little more to the team. I much rather have someone having fun then someone that feels that they must play a certain class or power set. The game is enough of a grind some times, we don't need to add to it.

/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen

Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper

 

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Noone has mentioned Fire/Kin!?

Have I shifted to an alternate reality?


Edit: Oh I see them now .