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Still there. the Detailed Ino was probably just never updated to match.
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Originally Posted by Thunder Knight
I was looking over my power descriptions on my Energy/Energy Brute, and it looks like the Taunt aura and -Recharge penalty on enemies from Entropic Aura are both gone. The -Rech is listed among the other effects in the short effect list (as "Foe -Recharge"), and both the -Recharge and the Taunt are explicitly mentioned in the description, but neither effect is in the Detailed Info section.
So is the Taunt aura still there and it's just not listed for some reason, or has this been changed? (Or was it never put in in the first place, outside of the I21 beta?) |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
They're definitely there. On a level 50 Brute it's -16% Recharge while in the aura, and a 13.6s Taunt (mag 4). The relevant effects all have a special condition to prevent them from applying to yourself.
I'm not sure how that could ever happen -- you'd have to be considered a Foe of yourself -- but evidently there's a reason for it to be there. Whatever the case, the detailed power window probably just doesn't understand what the condition is for and so it doesn't show those effects.
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Since the power has an effect on both you (the character) and foes, both are considered "targets" of the power. As such, there needs to be flags set for which effects affect either the foe or the character.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
They're definitely there. On a level 50 Brute it's -16% Recharge while in the aura, and a 13.6s Taunt (mag 4). The relevant effects all have a special condition to prevent them from applying to yourself.
I'm not sure how that could ever happen -- you'd have to be considered a Foe of yourself -- but evidently there's a reason for it to be there. Whatever the case, the detailed power window probably just doesn't understand what the condition is for and so it doesn't show those effects. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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That's actually not how it works. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Since the power has an effect on both you (the character) and foes, both are considered "targets" of the power. As such, there needs to be flags set for which effects affect either the foe or the character.
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The power itself has "Caster" as target, but "Foe" as the only entities affected by it. That means that it's centered on you, but can only actually hit entities that are unfriendly to you.
Individual effects on the other hand also have a target. This can either be "self", meaning that it applies to whomever uses the power, or "target", meaning that it applies to the entity that was affected by it (in this case, Foe).
Most of Entropic Aura's effects are targeted at self. Note that in a power like this, even though the effect's target is self, a separate copy of the effect is generated for each entity (in this case, foe) that is hit. That's the basic principle that is used for powers which grant varying levels of buffs depending on how many enemies are in range. The way to prevent that is if the effect is set to not stack from the same caster, so you can only ever get 1 instance of it. If you look at the link above, you'll see that the 3.5% recharge buff is the only one that can stack, so you get that for each enemy in range.
Only the Recharge debuff and Taunt use "target" and actually get applied to foes. Those are the ones with the seemingly unnecessary extra check on them. You should never be the target of those, because Caster/Player is not on the list of affected entities.
It's no different than how powers like Invincibility work, except those don't have the explicit (If not source = target) check. Entropic Aura is the only power that does that.
That eases my mind.
... hm, maybe it's like the PvP-only powers (which, as I recall, only appear in Detailed Info when you're in an actual PvP zone), in that they only appear when an enemy is actually in range of the power.
I'll have to check that.
Edited to add: Nope. And now I'm not even sure about the PvP part of what I said above.
Still, though, it's nice to know that it's working. (I don't have any direct way to check debuffs or taunts on enemies)
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Yeah, sorry...was just trying to shorthand it a bit. But your explanation is more correct.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
That's actually not how it works.
The power itself has "Caster" as target, but "Foe" as the only entities affected by it. That means that it's centered on you, but can only actually hit entities that are unfriendly to you. Individual effects on the other hand also have a target. This can either be "self", meaning that it applies to whomever uses the power, or "target", meaning that it applies to the entity that was affected by it (in this case, Foe). Most of Entropic Aura's effects are targeted at self. Note that in a power like this, even though the effect's target is self, a separate copy of the effect is generated for each entity (in this case, foe) that is hit. That's the basic principle that is used for powers which grant varying levels of buffs depending on how many enemies are in range. The way to prevent that is if the effect is set to not stack from the same caster, so you can only ever get 1 instance of it. If you look at the link above, you'll see that the 3.5% recharge buff is the only one that can stack, so you get that for each enemy in range. Only the Recharge debuff and Taunt use "target" and actually get applied to foes. Those are the ones with the seemingly unnecessary extra check on them. You should never be the target of those, because Caster/Player is not on the list of affected entities. It's no different than how powers like Invincibility work, except those don't have the explicit (If not source = target) check. Entropic Aura is the only power that does that. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Heh, no problem, just get a little OCD when people talk about power targets vs. effect targets, since the interactions can be subtle. Sorry about the wall of text.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Yeah, sorry...was just trying to shorthand it a bit. But your explanation is more correct.
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/really need to work on that power system mechanics wiki article
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So do you think they now have the tech to fix the taunt aura/taunt IO set issue?
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
Heh, no problem, just get a little OCD when people talk about power targets vs. effect targets, since the interactions can be subtle. Sorry about the wall of text.
/really need to work on that power system mechanics wiki article |
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Refresh my memory, was the issue with procs in taunt auras firing on self, or was it something else? If that's what it was, then yes, they do.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
So do you think they now have the tech to fix the taunt aura/taunt IO set issue?
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Procs are different. Because of how enhancements work, they don't get to have their own list of affected entities, have have to rely solely on the self/target split. Even that last part can be troublesome because one power might be able to affect caster, while another wouldn't. Pseudopet summons are especially problematic.
HOWEVER, for at least the last 5 or 6 issues, and maybe longer, all procs with negative effects, and many of the ones with positive effects have had a fail-safe added. This comes in the form of a conditional attached to the proc that double-checks if the target entity is considered hostile. So no more slotting Energy Manipulator in Speed Boost and stunning your teammates.
Barring some weird edge case, I'd say that with the addition of those fail-safes, proc misfiring issues are essentially "Solved". They may not always fire on the target you want them to, but if not they simply won't go off rather than hurting yourself with them.
The stun one kept applying to self, yeah, was the issue.
Note the specific issue was this was happening with Invincibility style taunt auras - auras with effects that affected both self and hostile characters.
I thought they cheated on the Energy manipulator Stun proc and just flagged it to not affect players (or did they do that and then switch later?)
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Quote:
It gets a little murky with enhancements, since part of the enhancement must always affect you (the buffs to attributes like Damage and Accuracy), and part of it must be applied to the target of the power. I get the impression that procs were either something that was bolted on later, or maybe even an unintended feature of the enhancement mechanics that was discovered and capitalized on.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Note the specific issue was this was happening with Invincibility style taunt auras - auras with effects that affected both self and hostile characters.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
I thought they cheated on the Energy manipulator Stun proc and just flagged it to not affect players (or did they do that and then switch later?)
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For the record, you were completely right.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Since the power has an effect on both you (the character) and foes, both are considered "targets" of the power. As such, there needs to be flags set for which effects affect either the foe or the character.
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Long story short: MySQL SUCKS!
Due to MySQL not liking spaces after commas in "set" columns, and also due to it silently ignoring data it considers invalid rather than actually, you know, printing an error message, City of Data was not showing affected entities other than the first.
So Entropic Aura does actually have Caster listed as an affected entity, which is how it's able to provide mez protection when no enemies are in range. It was that line of thinking that made me question if the power was working correctly and double check. It is also the reason for the explicit test on the debuffs.
So thanks for making me think about this one, the issue might have gone unnoticed otherwise. 382 powers were just fixed to display correctly.
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So sounds like it's time to ask Synapse if we can get Taunt sets back in Taunt auras.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Yeah, it was a bad example because I know that one was fixed previously. Regardless of how they did it before, it now uses the same isFriend? check that all the other procs do.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
So thanks for making me think about this one, the issue might have gone unnoticed otherwise. 382 powers were just fixed to display correctly.
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Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
For the record, you were completely right.
Long story short: MySQL SUCKS! Due to MySQL not liking spaces after commas in "set" columns, and also due to it silently ignoring data it considers invalid rather than actually, you know, printing an error message, City of Data was not showing affected entities other than the first. |
Code:
or exit(mysql_error());
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Biggest Troll on the forums? I'll give you a hint:
I was looking over my power descriptions on my Energy/Energy Brute, and it looks like the Taunt aura and -Recharge penalty on enemies from Entropic Aura are both gone. The -Rech is listed among the other effects in the short effect list (as "Foe -Recharge"), and both the -Recharge and the Taunt are explicitly mentioned in the description, but neither effect is in the Detailed Info section.
So is the Taunt aura still there and it's just not listed for some reason, or has this been changed? (Or was it never put in in the first place, outside of the I21 beta?)