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tl;dr
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. No they don't.
Notice a distinct lack of additions for AE? Something that sees more traffic than PVP? I'd say they're pretty much resigned to the fact that PVP in this game is essentially a dead end. Good, bad or otherwise. That's reality. As I said earlier. It's "don't hold your breath" and whenever they have absolutely nothing else on their plate. Please stop attempting to mangle my words into something I didn't say. I never said nobody PVPs. And I didn't say the devs will NEVER work on it. Merely that I highly doubt that they're going to turn PVP around and actually realize an increase in PVP players because of it. I don't begrudge you your desires. I'm merely saying that you're unlikely to have them satiated anytime soon. Yay! A checkbox! That's essentially why PVP was spit-and-bailing-wired onto this game. The then-prevailing "wisdom" was "a "major" MMO "has to" have PVP"." Look where it's gotten CoH's PVP. I remind you. This game isn't CoD. This game isn't DCUO. And going head-to-head against another player is only fun if you both have a chance of actually winning, regardless of what AT/power combinations you select. That just isn't the case with CoH. And the attempt to try and break the game to the point that it IS has left PVP all but unrecognizable to PVE players. And that's only one of CoH's myriad PVP "issues". Again, I don't begrudge you your enjoyment. But a more realistic outlook of PVP's future will probably leave you less rage-filled when said reality comes crashing in on you eventually. If it helps, just regard me as a humbug and a crank. Time will tell. |
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Next time I'll try to keep it to something you can manage. Preferably words of a syllable or less.
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Originally Posted by recalx
tl;dr
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Originally Posted by PoisonHeart
but most people dont deal with pvp BECAUSE of what the devs. did to it in issue13, i could be fine with what the devs. did if mids designer fixed their pvp stats to accuratly show what your stats look like, its been 8issues and no change, i mean i really feel disapointed for working really hard on my pvp toon on mids and in the game itself, countless hours spent into getting the rare/pvp ios and the money i put into it also, and now to see that its wrong. and ive seen the comments about this all over the forum and people have been asking for a change ever since the DR started.
is there ANY way i can get accurate stats for my pvp toon without going through the all the incredibly complicated mathmatical system? |
There actually is...
You can use Arcana's DR formula:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?...thkey=CPO10LgM
or what I use are these tables that she was kind enough to put together for a PvP Bootcamp:
Code:
95% 80% 125% 100% 150% 115% 175% 128% 200% 141% 225% 152% 250% 162% 275% 172% 300% 181% 350% 197% 400% 212% 450% 226% 500% 239%
Code:
Base A B C D MM 20% 17% 18% 18% 18% 16% 25% 20% 23% 22% 21% 18% 30% 23% 27% 26% 25% 21% 35% 26% 30% 29% 28% 22% 40% 29% 34% 32% 31% 24% 45% 31% 37% 35% 34% 25% 50% 33% 41% 38% 37% 27% 55% 35% 44% 40% 39% 28% 60% 36% 47% 43% 41% 29% 65% 38% 50% 45% 43% 29% 70% 39% 52% 47% 45% 30% 75% 40% 55% 49% 47% 30% 80% 41% 57% 51% 48% 31% 85% 42% 59% 53% 50% 31% 90% 43% 62% 54% 51% 32%
B = Scrap/Stalk/Brute
C = Tanker
D = HEAT/VEAT
MM = Masterminds
Defense:
Code:
Base A B H 10% 8% 9% 9% 15% 11% 14% 13% 20% 13% 18% 16% 25% 15% 21% 19% 30% 16% 24% 22% 35% 17% 28% 24% 40% 18% 30% 26% 45% 18% 33% 28% 50% 19% 35% 30% 60% 19% 40% 32% 70% 20% 43% 34% 80% 20% 46% 35% 90% 20% 48% 37% 100% 20% 50% 37%
B = Scrap/Stalk/Brute/Tank/VEAT
H = HEATs
Tohit:
Code:
10% 9% 15% 12% 20% 15% 25% 18% 30% 20% 35% 21% 40% 23% 45% 24% 50% 25% 60% 27% 70% 28% 80% 28% 90% 29% 100% 30%
BTW-
Hyperstrike- Stating that people are either PvP or PvE (which you did in your illustration) is not exactly a fair assessment. People who PvP also do PvE and just because 100% of the people in this game PvE (on some level) does not mean that the PvP population is invalid due to its size.
The way you are comparing the populations in this game would be as if you compared all humans on who live in Chicago to all humans who live on the planet. The first issue with that comparison is that the two populations overlap, the second issue is that the two comparative descriptors are not even in the same category.
Everyone PvEs... every last person in this game, then you have the various sub-groups that make up that global population:
There are people who enjoy collecting badges- that would be a sub-group
There are people who enjoy building bases- that is also a sub-group
There are people who love marketeering- yet another sub-group
There are people who love to stand in AP or Pocket D and RP- sub-group
and the list goes on and on and on...
People who enjoy pvping are a sub-group of PvErs, its not a you are in this group or that group type of phenomena.
While I do agree with your statement that the sub-group of people who enjoy PvP currently is fairly small, I do think it is a large enough sub-group for the Devs to put some effort and attention in to the wants and needs of this group.
I mean look at the forums, we pvpers, do have our own section and its not buried in another topic like base builders or badgers and the like (even though perhaps the sub-group that collects badges is much larger than PvPers).
There have been multiple instances where upgrades/changes/fixes have been a priority for the Developers for the PvP population.
If you go back and look at the original- "please fix" thread by @not putzing and look at all the prority items that the PvP population (pre-i13) asked the devs to fix/modify, you will see that out of the top 5 items, I believe 4 have been changed/fixed as we the PvP population requested.
Yes TS/HD/DR/inherent resists- are an issue- only because it creates a steep learning curve for anyone who wants to try pvp, you have to learn a whole new set of rules and mechanics (which is why the OP posted this thread), but I do think that with time perhaps we would see some better features to help change the gap between the two current mechanics in the game. If that is a better UI that allows us to toggle accurate PvP vs PvE information, or something of the like, I do think it will come to pass.
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Care to supply a quote with a link?? I can guarantee you it is from a long time ago. MANY of the pvpers have left this game and that estimate of 15% is much lower now - need proof - go to a pvp zone or watch arena chat. PVP has never been a large part of CoH; simply because as many have said; pvp was an after thought to this game. |
Originally Posted by recalx
that's not 15% chart-boi.
and that 15% is a quote from ex-libris. gawd, why are people so dumb in this game? |
FYI dumb would be relying on an outdated quote as your "evidence."
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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l2search.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Care to supply a quote with a link?? I can guarantee you it is from a long time ago. MANY of the pvpers have left this game and that estimate of 15% is much lower now - need proof - go to a pvp zone or watch arena chat. PVP has never been a large part of CoH; simply because as many have said; pvp was an after thought to this game.
FYI dumb would be relying on an outdated quote as your "evidence." |
i'm not your errand boy.
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I did no such thing.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
BTW-
Hyperstrike- Stating that people are either PvP or PvE (which you did in your illustration) is not exactly a fair assessment. |
Look at my illustration again. There are 2 indicators, but only a single column, denoting a single population set.
People who PvP also do PvE and just because 100% of the people in this game PvE (on some level) does not mean that the PvP population is invalid due to its size. [/quote]
I didn't say it was invalid due to it's size. Merely that people need to be realistic about PVP's future and it's place in developer priority. The devs are currently going after changes that are more or less accessible to everyone or further.
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| The way you are comparing the populations in this game would be as if you compared all humans on who live in Chicago to all humans who live on the planet. The first issue with that comparison is that the two populations overlap, the second issue is that the two comparative descriptors are not even in the same category. |
W
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| hile I do agree with your statement that the sub-group of people who enjoy PvP currently is fairly small, I do think it is a large enough sub-group for the Devs to put some effort and attention in to the wants and needs of this group. |
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| There have been multiple instances where upgrades/changes/fixes have been a priority for the Developers for the PvP population. |
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If you go back and look at the original- "please fix" thread by @not putzing and look at all the prority items that the PvP population (pre-i13) asked the devs to fix/modify, you will see that out of the top 5 items, I believe 4 have been changed/fixed as we the PvP population requested. Yes TS/HD/DR/inherent resists- are an issue- only because it creates a steep learning curve for anyone who wants to try pvp, you have to learn a whole new set of rules and mechanics (which is why the OP posted this thread), but I do think that with time perhaps we would see some better features to help change the gap between the two current mechanics in the game. If that is a better UI that allows us to toggle accurate PvP vs PvE information, or something of the like, I do think it will come to pass. |
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Quote:
I was not refering to your stacked bar graph, I was talking about what you wrote in your responses to people.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I did no such thing.
Look at my illustration again. There are 2 indicators, but only a single column, denoting a single population set. I'm well aware the two populations overlap. You're barking up the wrong tree here and misreading a graph. |
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| ...the PVE population as a whole, vastly overshadows the PVP population. |
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| What I'm saying is that, to some, the PVP community is most or all they see of the game. But the total community of the greater game is several orders of magnitude larger than the PVP community alone. |
I'm sure even you can see that you are indeed comparing two populations against each other which is invalid in this situation since the populations overlap. You "could" state that the sub-group of people who PvP makes up a very small percentage of the total CoX population as a whole however that is not what you said in either of those quotes, so no I'm not barking up the wrong tree, you are using flawed logic to argue a point that not one is saying is even wrong in the first place.
Is the current PvP population smaller than it was pre-i13... simple put, yes. However, is the entire population playing this game smaller, again yes.
Unless you have facts or data to point out that the decline in the PvP population is 'magnitudes' greater than the decline in the population as a whole then really your whole argument is invalid.
If it was fiscally responsible for the Devs to look at the PvP system pre-i13 and both populations decreased at a simliar rate it would hold that is it still fiscally responsible for them to continue to look at it.
I guess what you may have missed is that there 'have' been upgrades to PvP in this game since i13, one of the improvements that was most requested and has come to pass is the ability to select arena maps, pre-i13 it was purely random. There were also upgrades to the arena in issues 14 and 17.
You could even argue that side switching was what PvPers have been asking for with balance between red and blue for zone play. Remember that pre-13 villains had no way to increase their perception in Sirens call, this was a priority issue brought to the Devs attention by the PvPers in our call for change.
Will the Devs work to improve the PvP aspect of the game, who knows, but your statements that the system is dead and is being left on the cutting room floor has no basis. The only aspect of PvP that the Devs have stated that they have abandoned is base raids, which is unfortunate because those were fun and were a great way for people to try PvP.
Also...
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| And going head-to-head against another player is only fun if you both have a chance of actually winning, regardless of what AT/power combinations you select. |
Again, what you are trying to state isn't necessarily wrong hyper, given the changes in the game (going to this hybrid pay to play model) I am not sure how much resources the devs will allocate for PvP.
Right now it seems as if they are trying to hit the 'gotta have it all' crowds with lots of small items that will add up to a quick infusion of funds for the game. It will remain to be seen where they put those funds to work at.
@The_Masque
thanks you so much for this chart and information as well as explaining to hyperstrike that pvp players deserve just as much attention as the pve players
I guess we'll see if the MIDS team is able to make it happen...from another thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=280993&page=2
"...blah blah blah, something something...It's actually on our list, after PvP DR and Mastermind Pets."
__________________
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
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Yeah, I guess we can conveniently overlook the fact that this game was going have to PvP from the beginning. CoH PvP was, for all intents and purposes, doing pretty damn well until someone got a bad bag of shrooms and decided it needed "fixing."
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
That's essentially why PVP was spit-and-bailing-wired onto this game. The then-prevailing "wisdom" was "a "major" MMO "has to" have PVP"." Look where it's gotten CoH's PVP.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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It was planned since pre-beta. As early as 2002.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The fact is, PVP was nothing but a tacked-on afterthought here.
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"However, we do plan to implement an arena where players can engage in "friendly" bouts with one another."
-Rick Dakan
Source: http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/c...heroes_i.phtml
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That said, keep in mind that the famous "lol, PvP" phrase happened long before I13. PvP was always very broken, was full of ridiculous bugs, and was never even remotely balanced. Of course to take something broken and make it 100 times worse is still the worst design decision in MMO history, imo.
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Originally Posted by macskull
CoH PvP was, for all intents and purposes, doing pretty damn well until someone got a bad bag of shrooms and decided it needed "fixing."
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the big thing about pvp though was that there was a huge barrier of entry.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
That said, keep in mind that the famous "lol, PvP" phrase happened long before I13. PvP was always very broken, was full of ridiculous bugs, and was never even remotely balanced. Of course to take something broken and make it 100 times worse is still the worst design decision in MMO history, imo.
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i remember sitting in the i13 changes thread and dishing out 1v1-8v8 requests to anyone who argued that there was no skill involved in i12 pvp and that the lowering of the bar of i13 wasn't in fact a lowering of the bar, and not one of the lolpvp crowd backed their words with actions.
it took a certain kind of person to pvp.
i mean, some people had long necks.
others were and are still fat.
others liked listening to tree frogs.
but pretty much everyone who did it for a while came to understand the system, otherwise, they just quit and went to do pve again.
i13 obfuscated the system to the point where basically about 10 people understood the numbers behind the game, and unless you were part of the i12 crew (with like one or two exceptions to this, of course (dex, katalyst)), you pretty had no idea where to start.
Notice a distinct lack of additions for AE? Something that sees more traffic than PVP?
I'd say they're pretty much resigned to the fact that PVP in this game is essentially a dead end. Good, bad or otherwise. That's reality.
I never said nobody PVPs. And I didn't say the devs will NEVER work on it.
Merely that I highly doubt that they're going to turn PVP around and actually realize an increase in PVP players because of it.
That's essentially why PVP was spit-and-bailing-wired onto this game. The then-prevailing "wisdom" was "a "major" MMO "has to" have PVP"." Look where it's gotten CoH's PVP.
And going head-to-head against another player is only fun if you both have a chance of actually winning, regardless of what AT/power combinations you select. That just isn't the case with CoH. And the attempt to try and break the game to the point that it IS has left PVP all but unrecognizable to PVE players.
And that's only one of CoH's myriad PVP "issues".
Again, I don't begrudge you your enjoyment. But a more realistic outlook of PVP's future will probably leave you less rage-filled when said reality comes crashing in on you eventually.
If it helps, just regard me as a humbug and a crank. Time will tell.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.