I'm not against the idea of getting PvP improvements in this game but let's keep things in perspective. It's obvious there's some differences between a game that implemented PvP roughly 6 years ago versus a game that launched its version of PvP only 2 weeks ago. Sure it might make sense for this game to "learn some lessons" from other newer games, assuming those lessons prove to be worthwhile. But please don't get your hopes up that anything is going to change here anytime soon.
The Devs of this game already have the content of the next 2 or 3 Issues established in the pipeline at any given time. Even if they woke up tomorrow and decided to completely copy everything that other game is doing for PvP it'd probably still be at the very least 6 months or a year before we were able to play with any of it. *shrugs*
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Now, show me where I said "this has to be in now/soon." For someone insisting we have to "keep things in perspective," you seem to miss me saying PVP itself needs fixing first, which is not a small job and would take time on its own.
All I'm pointing out is one of the styles they have, and that COH could take some cues from it for a different experience. Period. No timeframe suggested. (The only thing even close to it is mentioning we have the LFG queue in game now, which could be used if this were ever considered.)
So, instead of stomping all over anyone's "hopes to get anything implemented" (which aren't mentioned to begin with,) how about replying to the suggestion itself?
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Originally Posted by Model 75
Yes, PVP needs fixing, I know that. That needs doing first.
That said, for someone not "heavily" interested in PVP, a certain new game (from long ago and far, far away) has gotten me PVPing (yes, on a PVE server.) They've got "warzone scenarios" that I think COH should take a look at. Some of these have probably been suggested before, but I think that other game is doing something very right with these. Their plusses: 1. Focused. There's definite reasons to be fighting - defend/attack something to make your way through a ship, or "huttball" (sort of a reverse capture-the-flag,) or taking over turrets to attack your enemy's base and keep them from coming in. 2. Timed There's no "This could take hours of back and forth" - you've got a time limit to finish the "game" or to complete the objective. 3. Auto-teamed (and fairly even) You just queue up and, when it's ready, it tells you and asks you to accept or cancel. Which we have now in the LFG queue, so this should be (in theory) usable. But the warzone will cancel if there are too few people on a side. 4. Balanced. Yeah. This is the problem, I'm told, with what happened to PVP here. Maybe just undoing that would help, I don't know, but even with the mix of classes there nobody seems to feel useless or underpowered, even if they're just running a level 10. This would probably be the hardest thing here, still. 5. Rewarding. We get rewards in PVP here, sure - and they need looking at, from what it sounds like. There, I'm guaranteed something just for participating (money, really, with some chances on stims (think enhancements/inspirations) or crafting components. I think COH could take the best of what they show there and integrate it with a distinct COH flare here. Having goals (and a specific "This will only take 15 minutes, and you will get something out of it") would probably get more people interested in PVPing here that aren't doing so now thanks to empty zones, the gulf between heavily IO'd and new characters, etc. |
OVERALL CHANGES I WOULD DO TO FIX PVP:
1: RE-IMPLEMENT THE OLD PVP OF ISSUE ELEVEN
2: TAKE AWAY IOs IN PVP SO CASUAL PLAYERS ARE NOT DISCOURAGED
3: GIVE BRUTES LOCKED FURY IN PVP
4: IMPLEMENT THE OBJECTIVE/TIME/REWARD THINGS LIKE YOU MENTIONED
5: FREAKING ADVERTISE MORE SO THE GAME SIPHONS IN NEW PLAYERS ENTHUSIASTIC TO THE PVP IDEA AND THE GAME MAKES MORE MONEY TO IMPLEMENT CHANGES OVERALL !!!
I had a lot of fun doing PvP in 2006 with my SS/Invul Brute R u i n e r and Brutes were not even good. I remember PvP being a major fun factor driving me to level him. Now I have no experience in the new Star Wars game and I have not PvPed since back in 2007 when Ice/EM, Ice/SS Tankers were king. I quit before PvP was neutered so I did not feel the change directly.
Your ideas of objective/time missions would certainly bring flavor but from what I know about PvP the first thing the developers would have to do is re-implement pre-i13 or i12 PvP. Once that is done then I am all for your idea.
BALANCE
Regarding balance.. I am afraid thats impossible in this sort of game. Even pre-i12 PvP was unbalanced but it was the best the game could offer and still was fun in a way. The developers tried to fix the natural order of things and ended up fixing nothing apparently and making things worse. The most logical course of action to do now is bring back issue 11 PvP while completely eliminating IOs from PvP. IOs make casual PvP quite difficult although not impossible. There is no way " Joe Sixpack" who has two jobs and a family can compete with "Mike Hunt" and his fat gamer girlfriend " Susie Rottencrotch who do not have a job and ,as such, spend as much time needed to gain 99999999999999999999999999 influence by either farming, paying Koreans, or playing the market to completely IO their character for PvP. The casual player stands little chance against these trillion dollar builds specfically geared to annihilate them. So in order to make PvP more fun, IOs should be eliminated. Also, Since its impossible to build Fury in PvP, Brutes should automatically be locked at 50% Fury when entering a PvP zone/event or something.
Thats probably the best balance can go in all honesty. Whatever subsequent balance issues occur after will just have to be done on a case by case basis such as all Masterminds being susceptible to Teleport Foe
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I replied to the suggestion in just about the only way that was useful. *shrugs*|
Originally Posted by Model 75
Now, show me where I said "this has to be in now/soon." For someone insisting we have to "keep things in perspective," you seem to miss me saying PVP itself needs fixing first, which is not a small job and would take time on its own.
All I'm pointing out is one of the styles they have, and that COH could take some cues from it for a different experience. Period. No timeframe suggested. (The only thing even close to it is mentioning we have the LFG queue in game now, which could be used if this were ever considered.) So, instead of stomping all over anyone's "hopes to get anything implemented" (which aren't mentioned to begin with,) how about replying to the suggestion itself? |
My point (which I now realize you probably didn't pick up on presuming from your forum join date that you are relatively new to the game) was that people have been suggesting various ideas like yours to improve PVP in this game for years. Many years. Long before the specific game you're referring to was even a glint in its Lead Devs' eye from a galaxy far, far away.
I realize that you did not demand that you wanted X, Y or Z by such-in-such date. But the very nature of your hopeful suggestions implied that you might be happy even if it took what seemed like a "reasonable" amount of time to create. Problem is things basically have not fundamentally improved with this game's PvP for years. The overall concept of PvP in this game has become a very low priority sideline and probably will always be from now on.
When CoV was first introduced as a "standalone expansion" back in October 2005 one of the main concepts behind it was the SG base raiding PVP system. It was clearly going to be the cornerstone of the original "end-game" vision long before the Incarnate system even existed. Unfortunately the feature never really worked - too much server lag made the whole thing a craptastic disaster. It literally only managed to stay in the live build of the game for a few weeks in total before it was permanently pulled back out. In fact I think it'd be easy to nominate the failure of the SG base raiding system as the single most embarrassing and costly development misstep this game has ever suffered through.
Since then the support for the entire PvP system in this game has faltered and been effectively deprioritized by the Devs. The Arena system (and the related Gladiator feature) quickly faded away unused by a majority of the playerbase. Even the population of the open zone PVPers (in Bloody Bay, Sirens Call and Recluse Victory) has diminished to a handful of diehards.
As I said before I'm not against PVP improvements for this game. I simply counter-suggested not get your hopes up about this. This game has been leaning strongly towards the PvE side of things for years and if the Devs aren't willing to "fix" even the basic PvP problems (as you put it) how likely do you think it would be for them to want to try another ambitious stab at new PvP features (along the lines of your suggestions) after the humiliating and costly failure of SG base raiding system?
Let's just say I don't really need to "stomp" all over your suggestion - it appears the Devs have already beat me to it.
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I enjoy PvP in this game and others but Im just a casual zone PvPer versus some of the real, head in the game mechanics, die hard types. Having said that, the real PvPers have been making suggestions to the devs for years and while I cant see the Dev's big picture/project assignments...it doesnt appear they have shown much, if any interest in improving the PvP aspect of CoX or even in the PvP community's opinions. I know, I know....like .01% of the game actually PvPs so why bother building on it? Ive heard it before and I got it.
People usually have a very negative view of any PvP community (and with good reason, they tend to attract a certain type of player...not sure if its the immature, elitists or just general aholes) but there are a lot of solid/mature players that PvP who have documented issues, problems and overall gaming inconsistencies and spoken to the Devs about these items. You can find posts that have been stickied in the PvP section going back 5-6 years and even with that, not much has been done to address PvP.
So just like many people get tired of trying to help someone who doesnt seem interested in improving themselves, many of the real PvPers have given up with trying to make things better here and most dont even play the game anymore.
I applaud you for trying to get something going with this post, but others before you have done the same for years with minimum results.
Basically what Lothic said, "dont get your hopes up".
It is what it is.
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Originally Posted by CrazyJerseyan
I enjoy PvP in this game and others but Im just a casual zone PvPer versus some of the real, head in the game mechanics, die hard types. Having said that, the real PvPers have been making suggestions to the devs for years and while I cant see the Dev's big picture/project assignments...it doesnt appear they have shown much, if any interest in improving the PvP aspect of CoX or even in the PvP community's opinions. I know, I know....like .01% of the game actually PvPs so why bother building on it? Ive heard it before and I got it.
People usually have a very negative view of any PvP community (and with good reason, they tend to attract a certain type of player...not sure if its the immature, elitists or just general aholes) but there are a lot of solid/mature players that PvP who have documented issues, problems and overall gaming inconsistencies and spoken to the Devs about these items. You can find posts that have been stickied in the PvP section going back 5-6 years and even with that, not much has been done to address PvP. So just like many people get tired of trying to help someone who doesnt seem interested in improving themselves, many of the real PvPers have given up with trying to make things better here and most dont even play the game anymore. I applaud you for trying to get something going with this post, but others before you have done the same for years with minimum results. Basically what Lothic said, "dont get your hopes up". It is what it is. |
Why people dont like PvP is simple:
1: THE BUILDS THEY LOVE ARE NOT EFFECTIVE IN PVP. If they were effective then there would not be much problem from the community. Rude players do not really matter if they are not killing you.
When, I first started this game I wanted to be an like an evil Superman so nautrally I made an SS Inv Brute but no matter how good I was , I could not defeat a decently played Illusion/Rad or Fire/Rad Controller in a 1 v 1 engagement. Facing an Ice/EM Dominator once...I was helpless. No amount of Break Frees could save me from the Slow powers. I could not even escape. Also being a melee in PvP condemns you to constant attacks from ranged players kiting. As a Brute , your Fury building is useless and you become weaker than a Tank.
This unbalance has always existed and really compells players to sacrifice their concept and pick a more powerful build that is less fun and totally soulless. I did not want to be Fire/Em Blaster, or Illusion controller or a Stalker.. I wanted to be an SS/Invul Brute but an SS/invul Brute does not work well in PvP. But I was not about to roll a soulless character that I hate conceptutally just for the sake of PvP.
Luckly for me once I made an Ice/SS Tanker named Coldar with a great concept and then discovered Ice Tankers were very effective in PvP(2006). I had to in fact take it easy on 3 hero squishes who were attacking me in Warburg to avoid humilating them. I was holding back like Superman, just easily stopping them from killing me.
2 : IO INVESTMENT RUINS THE GAME. This may be more a psychological problem but nevertheless it has validity. Casual players are simply not going to go to a PvP Zone once they discover that some of the opposing players they are facing have invested trillions of influence into their build.
Honestly I kinda regret posting in this thread. I have been very sick so my judgment is a little off. I can see little hope for PvP as the games general population is greatly declining and with the developers having showing no interest in PvP whatsoever , probably because it is impossible to balance.
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You forgot one. |
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
Why people dont like PvP is simple:
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They don't like PvP because it's PVP.
I agree with your 1 & 2.
I hate the LFG thingy 
For balance I would rather PvP was purely objective based and the objective was not accomplished by killing / defeating other players. I would change the nature of defeat so that you could always revive where you fell. There wouldn't be rewards for getting "kills" only for winning the match.
The trick then would be to cleverly design the game play so that there is an objective that can be achieved using a variety of super powers and can be skinned in the genre. Which is lot harder than it sounds and if I could do that I would have a different job 
Its the nature of this game with its great many powersets and differently configured archetypes that players will vary greatly in capacity. For the PvE game that doesn't matter because they can all succeed. For the same to work in PvP players have to complete against each other for an objective without being pitted directly against each other. Easier said than done. 
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I'd add an alternate, simplified version of PvP that uses only a handful of powers, based on your Archetype and Primary/Secondary sets. You'd still get the set bonuses from your normal build, though.
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yeah, something about droping a few bill on a build then get smoked would cause a player to not like it. But yeah, lolpvp is good fun for the whole family. I honestly get bored with Task Forces, trials, missions, and badges. Lolpvp offers something that is missing. Killing other players(well except the time I AS'd that Blaster on ugt, that was awesome).
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You forgot one.
They don't like PvP because it's PVP. |
Kill the enemy. Take their souls. Drink their blood.
Yes, PVP needs fixing, I know that. That needs doing first.
That said, for someone not "heavily" interested in PVP, a certain new game (from long ago and far, far away) has gotten me PVPing (yes, on a PVE server.)
They've got "warzone scenarios" that I think COH should take a look at. Some of these have probably been suggested before, but I think that other game is doing something very right with these. Their plusses:
1. Focused.
There's definite reasons to be fighting - defend/attack something to make your way through a ship, or "huttball" (sort of a reverse capture-the-flag,) or taking over turrets to attack your enemy's base and keep them from coming in.
2. Timed
There's no "This could take hours of back and forth" - you've got a time limit to finish the "game" or to complete the objective.
3. Auto-teamed (and fairly even)
You just queue up and, when it's ready, it tells you and asks you to accept or cancel. Which we have now in the LFG queue, so this should be (in theory) usable. But the warzone will cancel if there are too few people on a side.
4. Balanced.
Yeah. This is the problem, I'm told, with what happened to PVP here. Maybe just undoing that would help, I don't know, but even with the mix of classes there nobody seems to feel useless or underpowered, even if they're just running a level 10.
This would probably be the hardest thing here, still.
5. Rewarding.
We get rewards in PVP here, sure - and they need looking at, from what it sounds like. There, I'm guaranteed something just for participating (money, really, with some chances on stims (think enhancements/inspirations) or crafting components.
I think COH could take the best of what they show there and integrate it with a distinct COH flare here. Having goals (and a specific "This will only take 15 minutes, and you will get something out of it") would probably get more people interested in PVPing here that aren't doing so now thanks to empty zones, the gulf between heavily IO'd and new characters, etc.