What abilities should demigods have?

Oh, absolutely, I totally agree. I meant that out of the powers we HAVE, Judgement is the most godlike, at least in my opinion. There could certainly be other powers that would be at least equally impressive.

Here's where I draw the line, and why most of my characters don't use more than 1 Incarnate power a piece. (Note: "use" not "have," as a few of my characters have taken powers purely for the level shifts because I don't believe in the same Praetorians that I fought in Maria Jenkins's arc suddenly being so much stronger.) This also goes back to what I have been mentioning quite a bit in this thread already: a specialization and focus of characters. A character that I designed for "street crime" would not be an Incarnate. The Well's power hungry nature would be uninterested in his level of power, and he would not be the kind to go in search of artifacts, or make gadgets, etc., because his focus would be protecting the streets.

When I think up and design a character, despite taking my time and enjoying the journey as he discovers his powers, I usually have an end result in mind in terms of level of power and ability. But 99% of the time it does not involve getting to 50 and suddenly gaining unusual abilities, by any means (Well, gadgets, etc.). If I take an Incarnate ability on my character, it is because that ability is an obvious extension of their already-present powers and/or concept. For example: My ice blaster only took Cryonic Judgement, while my super soldier concept toon took the Cardiac Alpha. Some might call this a lack of imagination, but it is not that I gave up and decided that I could not justify any of the Incarnate abilities, because if I wanted their concept/story to take a paradigm shift and have them suddenly gain powers unrelated to their previous powers, I could think up a worthwhile explanation. Rather, their stories do not call for that level of power. While they live in a universe with cosmically powered beings, they themselves are not.

Coming back to the above quote, I would think that street fighter character could have whatever abilities you wanted since, as you say, he became a god. In my case, his godlike abilities would be an extension of what he is already, so maybe he's gets foresight (the ability to know an opponent's next combative action before they even make it), perhaps he gets very fast (i.e. "The Matrix" agent style fast), or maybe his strength improves to the point where each punch he lands does that much more damage. Any of those abilities could be called godlike in comparison to what he was before *insert power-granting event* happened, but he doesn't end up pulling a giant firestorm out of nowhere, nor is he suddenly casting a healing aura on allies. It is totally possible that he found an ancient stone that gave him healing abilities, but speaking from my design perspective, he wouldn't take that stone because it would not help him to more effectively do what he already does.

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And just to respond to your most recent post: I really like all of those ideas. I think that sort of thing would do wonders for fleshing out concepts. (Why SHOULDN'T a gadgeteer/technopath be able to craft something in the field, wherever he/she may be?) But then I look at it from a development standpoint, and I do not think the ends would justify the means, because the majority of the player base would want "moar powa" and skip QoL of things like that. I am sure once people got their powers, they trial grinders would use their rewards to craft QoL powers like the ones you listed, but my point is that they would be secondary priorities for most, and therefore most likely skipped on many characters.

I wouldn't call it lack of imagination in the slightest. Far from it - that's exactly where I was, and indeed still am for the most part. I've had the most difficult time accepting Arachnos Patron pools as a concept and have only recently started even contemplating Incarnate powers. You have a concept in mind, and you're sticking to it. Giving the character both the strengths AND the weaknesses that that concept calls for is just good writing. It may not necessarily be good PLAYING, but my impression has always been that playing doesn't really take that much imagination anyway. Your dime, your time.

For me, however, I see this as an opportunity to expand my horizons, and an opportunity I've not really faced in a very long time. I think Sam Tow himself is a pretty good example, as I pretty much every time I so much as touch the guy's concept, he seems to develop new powers and abilities just because I think it's cool. He started as a very fast guy with a powerful sword, then went on to be fast enough to dodge bullets, then went on to have a pair of custom guns, then he went on to have a momentum-cancelling device with which to make long jumps and survive huge falls, then I ret-conned his cloak into a sort of hard light holographic shield, then I gave him limited precognition, and I'm currently contemplating giving him an actual energy sword. Just 'cuz.

Personally, when I design my characters, I do so from a standpoint of profound respect and admiration for them, both hero and villain. I want these guys to be the stars of their own stories, I want these guys to be the movers and shakers of their own worlds, I want them to be one-man armies. That's kind of why I made them in the first place. In large part, my imagination has been shaped by what City of Heroes allows me to do, and for seven years City of Heroes kept my brain locked into classes and specialists, to the point where that's how I've actually started thinking. So here, finally, is an opportunity to expand on my imagination... And I kind of want to take it. Well, solo Incarnate progress permitting, but that's besides the point.

My point is that... For a lot of my characters, I can cite sources for their godlike powers offhand, just because the concepts I gave them are more or less already like that. For others, it's not as easy. Normally, I'd balk and insist that that's not what I envisioned the character as doing. Like you, I'd aim to limit what my characters can do. But I now find myself accepting that maybe these guys and gals could and indeed should be capable of more. I realise that I've built a fighter who worked well in hand-to-hand combat, but fell short when he had to face off against tanks and fighter jets, and now I have to come up with a reason for why he CAN fight them. How do you kick a jet when you're earth-bound? In this case, I'm not trying to shoehorn foreign abilities into existing characters so much as I want to expand existing characters into a brand new direction. To be honest... It's been a lot of fun so far

Well... To be honest, just making a character stronger but the same like he was seems like a waste to me. It'd be a good stat boost, but it could be so much more. And what's funny is I was one of the people advocating that Incarnates just make us better at what we already do, not try to reinvent ourselves, and yet here I am asking for how we should go about reinventing ourselves a year later. Let's just say I changed my mind.

But the point is, you don't have to expand your character by breaking concept. You don't have to introduce new plots to your character to make this work. Not unless your character is defined by what he can't do. As I mentioned with Sam before, mine rarely are. Almost without exception, I want to give them all tools to deal with all situations, including things like aerial combat, space exploration, time travel and so on. To me, the sky's the limit (figuratively speaking), and actually having the opportunity to expand sideways seems like a fun thing to do, at least as a mental exercise.

Personally, though, I feel that a specialist simply can't make for a good god, just because a god faces enemies of a VERY broad spectrum of abilities. When your enemies could literally be anything, you kind of have to be able to do everything. Plus, it's damn cool to be able to do that

I don't disagree with you, but I find this to be profoundly disappointing. Personally, the elitist VIP quality of life additions that trivialise most of the game's time sinks are exactly the kind of thing that would set an Incarnate apart. The ordinary folk have to walk to the shop to sell their goods, but my Incarnate can turn them into energy right on the spot, just as a random example. In this case, it's not cool because I'm "better," but rather it's cool because I remember when I faced the same limitation, and I know how cool it is to overcome it. An Incarnate who is essentially independent of the world around him and needs no help from anyone is a damn cool thing.

That said, I do believe a "quality of life" slot would be seen as a giant waste by most players. I kind of wish these things came with Incarnate slots as sort of a minor bonus. For instance, you get your Destiny slot and on top of the Destiny power you put in it, you get to shape people's destiny by being able to change their difficulty settings ala the Fateweavers. You don't have to invest in this, it's a perk of the slot. Or for the Judgement slot, in addition to your large-scale AoE, you can train people when they level up. The connection is tenuous, but it could be spun to make sense.

Basically, I feel that the "more incarnated" a character is, the more quality of life benefits he should posses. These don't have to be gamebreaking, so long as they free us up from our reliance on support from our world. Ideally, I want an Incarnate to be able to be dropped off on the dark side of the moon with no contact with Earth and still have full access to all amenities people in the heart of Paragon City can enjoy.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

To feel godlike, feel free to correct me, as Sam appears to be saying, you'd be more "godlike" by soloing things at -1/x8.

So, you'd still be facing an army, but they're less of a threat to you personally because you now have power of a god. Which, makes sense from a certain point of view.

That's exactly what I mean, yes. There's room for "greater threats" that endanger even the gods themselves, but these should be exceedingly rare. If a god is to be threatened, this should come from his enemies using overwhelming numbers or otherwise cheating in a way that gives them power but comes with tragic consequences for them, as well.

In general, I want an Incarnate to feel like the raid boss, with the NPCs coming in a large group to take him down like the raid party. Again, this doesn't have to apply to just one player. A group of players could be threatened by enemy numbers, as well, if the enemies field enough "heavies." I'd sooner fight the whole damn Praetorian army like we do in one mission in Tin Mage than fight just one or two Praetorian god-modders.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Okay, so do you actually do this in-game for some of your characters?

I'm all for it. I know I've fiddled with difficulty settings to give me the right feel for whatever character I'm playing, and not simply to get the most xp/time. Or to account for "planning ahead" in character.

From what I've seen of the trials, they seem like they're supposed to be rare one-off events. The problem is, that to get the required rewards to achieve whatever level of incarnate-dom you're chasing, you have to do them over and over. But, I don't think you should take that as a point against the trials themselves, but rather the system that requires them to be repeated in order to achieve power. I recognize how thin I'm splitting hairs here.

Do you mean if I've fiddled with characters who have great power, but which comes with nasty side effects? I have. That's more or less what the original Samuel Tow was and is. He's always been my Mary Sue who can do practically anything, but usually doesn't do much of anything because of just that kind of limitation. His power comes from a difficult-to-explain alternate consciousness, a sort of violent base instinct, that vies for control of his mind, so every time he does anything super, he risks letting it take control. Essentially, he can do almost anything, and yet he usually can't afford to.

I find some of the most entertaining storywriting to be for characters who COULD totally break the story, and then coming up with legitimate reasons for why they can't afford to.

I see your point. Realistically speaking, if we see the Trials as one-offs, they're not that bad, especially if we assume our characters do other things the rest of the time. But the problem is that Matt Miller and his crew didn't do that. They didn't create a pool of content with raids as the exception. They created standard MMO raid grind. They made a system intentionally designed for repeated raiding. They shouldn't have designed such a system with content that, narratively, is only supposed to happen once.

While iRaids themselves may be forgiveable in a vacuum, the system that's wrapped around them simply robs them of it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I was thinking rigging things in favor of your characters in-game by using the difficulty settings.

Ah! Yes, I have and I do. Mostly, I play +0x2. I tried playing -1x3, but people insulted my intelligence so many times I gave up on it, plus back then I wanted to get Shard drops, too, and those don't drop off -1 enemies.

Now, does that mean I can't handle +1x2 or +0x3 or even more? Probably not. Hell, I up the difficulty to +0x3 when I team with my friends, just so we're not two people fighting my solo spawns, and occasionally I'll forget to change it back. Turns out, my Titan Weapons Brute can handle that with enough success, but I still went back to +0x2. Why? Well, when I fight harder fights, it causes me to get hurt more, slow down more, use more inspirations and die more, and I honestly find this disruptive. I prefer to have most of the game be a curb stomp with only the occasional special spawns providing the actual challenge. And the way this game's scripted fights work, upping your difficulty causes them to get a LOT harder. A x1 Achilles fight gives you 6 bosses and around 6-8 minions. A x2 Achilles fight gives you 6 bosses and around 20-30 minions, at least by my count.

That's not to say the game is always easy. My Titan Brute fell to Nosferatu, she fell to Brukholder, she fell once to Requiem/Vandal/Ming the Merciless, she quite a few times to Red Cap bosses, she fell a few times when ambushes stacked with regular fights, she fell a few times against the Cimeroran Traitors, and even when my enemies aren't that strong, she's fallen a few times just because I made a mistake. There are challenging fights all over the game, I just don't want EVERY fight to be challenging. This is depressing. I want most fights to be easy so that I can approach the actually challenging fights with confidence and enthusiasm, not with fear and trepidation.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I cannot believe you remember that.

My brain is a cauldron of eclectic memories that strike at the strangest times. Until I started the previous sentence, I didn't think I remembered, either

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Perhaps I misphrased my post a bit, and I apologize for giving the wrong impression.

As far as Endgame content itself goes, yeah, we're still in the 'Level 1-10 zones' right now. As far as total character progression is going? We're still continuing up the ladder (or rather, have found a ladder of divine light reaching down to the plateau that was the big five-oh).

Your characters themselves aren't knocked down back to level 1 status, and you surely aren't made humble. Remember how, all the way from 1 to 50, your character would do story arcs started at a certain level, and as you leveled up the enemies would get stronger as well (as you moved through their forces) until you finally fought the Big Bad at the end of the Arc (or moved on to the zone Task Force)? That is the same progression the iTrials are using, except they give you much more challenging content than the 1-50 story arcs that do account for your new found godly powers.

In a sense, I look at each iTrial as a condensed Task Force. Strikes like these that would have taken characters not climbing the Incarnate ladder hours to do (if they could do it at all), but due to the powers and level shifts we've earned (continuing power advancement beyond level 50) we can pull off these raids and assault operations in under 20 minutes.

Part of the complaint I'm seeing is more than likely due to the Incarnate system coming after so long having had that 'Level 50 = Full Stop' in progression. Folks are used to having 50 be the big, end-all be-all with nothing more to learn. Then the iTrials come along with new ways to advance your character and bring stronger foes along with it as well (which fits right along with the rest of the advancement of the game) and it throws players for a bit of a loop. Level 50 is no longer the end of the road as far as progression goes, and the idea that there are NPCs that are better than them still irks some folks, but that is where the path to godhood comes in.

You're character isn't a rookie; all the level 1-50 stuff has still happened and you've got all the experience and power that it has given you. However, learning all of that was never an easy thing, and there were numerous challenges and battles along the way to making a character a fully-fledged, world-saving Hero. Why should the path to godhood itself, ultimate cosmic power, not require tasks and tribulations as well? You are going beyond where you were at level 50, ascending to an even higher point in power, and the things you need to accomplish will get more difficult accordingly.

The game mechanics are more difficult as well, to also reflect this new advancement. Reason being, if it was more of the same 'go in, kill cetain mobs, fight AV, done' stuff that we got at level 50, it wouldn't feel like an accomplishment. It would just be more of the same content we've had, already done and done over again. What new things can you learn, new power can you attain if you just do the same thing you did back at level 15 with Dr. Vhazilok in Posi's Task Force? The iTrials have all of these dynamic, new mechanics in them because, at level 50 and beyond, those characters are the only ones that can actually access the tools and powers (both the 1-50 powers and the iPowers) that you need to overcome them.

But, to cut a long post short; we are no longer at the pinnacle of our powers, as another ladder has appeared for us to climb, and the climb farther up won't be easier than the climb we've already undertaken.

With you last response to my most recent post, I think I finally understood where it is your coming from. (Though, I have to say, I enjoyed the lengthy back-and-forth discussion!)

I just have to chime in that I agree with the quote entirely! From a narrative point, it bugs the crap out of me.

Because there's really no point in it. There is no point in adding progression past the level cap if that progression is just going to parrot progression from level 1 proper. If I'm level 50(+1) fighting level 50(+1) Infected and still being treated as a helpless rookie, then why did I bother getting here? We've done this, we've seen this, we were the rookies. The point of expanding our limitations isn't just so we can retrace our steps and be busted down to rookie, albeit a very powerful one, all over again. The point is to present us with something that we didn't have before, and what we didn't have before was the authority to act like gods and the status of being the strongest. Anything less than that is a missed opportunity.

As I said - you may present it as progression, but progression is not down to numbers, or shouldn't be, at any rate. Progression is about presentation. I shouldn't have to stop and read a list of reasons for why I'm better to know that I am. Progression is something that should be visible and tangible, something that should be obvious. Before I was a god, I had my limitations. Now that I am, I'm so much better. There may still be much to do and many challenges to face, but these challenges shouldn't appear overwhelming and humiliating. That's not where the path to godhood should be headed.

What you describe reminds me of the relationship between J and K of Men in Black fame. When Will Smith is first introduced, he's damn near the best cop on the force, but Tommy Lee Jones still treats him like a bumbling rookie and the audience, by extension, sees him as one. Even in Men in Black 2, when Will Smith has become an elite agent, when Tommy Lee Jones comes back, he still dominates him and effectively busts him down to rookie. That's progress in words only, but in terms of presentation, it's regression. Power does not matter numerically. Power only matters within context, and the context of Incarnate Trials is "you are weak, helpless peons before the might that is Praetoria."

As heroes, we started small and became big. As gods, we need to start big and become even bigger. The Incarnate storyline shouldn't be looking for excuses to bust us down to trainee. It should be looking for excuses to make us shine despite being new to godlike power. We have already progressed from underdog to champion once. Doing it again adds nothing. Progressing from champion to something so much more is where the real potential of this system lies.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

But most of the time, it stays on the horizon, and it only shows up very rarely for a very brief time so that the heroes and villains of that specific comic book universe can have a crossover event, before things settle back down to normal again.

Like I said - if we view Trials as that one crossover event where our enemies cheat and they're just cosmically powerful... Yeah, that works. Granted, it needs better presentation, but IF it had better presentation, it could work. The problem is that this only actually works in a system where this is the exception to a more benevolent, uplifting narrative, and you can't have that in a raid grind scenario. Yes, we're getting Solo Incarnate content NOW, but the fact that us asking for that caused the development team's monocles to collectively pop off their cheeks with amazement tells me that this wasn't really intended to happen. They genuinely intended for the system to be all soul-crushing raids as the baseline and HARDER raids as the exception.

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In a broader sense, though - and this feeds back to what abilities we should have - I disagree that Incarnates need to prove anything, and I disagree with this on a very fundamental level. Gods and demigods should not have to "prove" anything to anyone. They have proven themselves by wresting control of the power of the well from its grasp without its direct consent (remember - the Well is gone at the end of Ramiel's arc). We have nothing left to "prove" or "earn." We are entitled to this power, and it is precisely this sense of authority and entitlement that sets god apart from ordinary people, at least in terms of respect. An ordinary person has to prove himself before he can receive divine assistance. A god is entitled to this assistance by right of status.

To my eyes, godhood should come first and foremost with unparalleled prestige, and this is perhaps where the main disconnect between us happens. Incarnates should not be underdogs. Ever. Irrespective of how much power the well has given them, Incarnates should be entitled to respect and awe just by virtue of being Incarnate. Hell, most Incarnates should be entitled to respect just for having gotten to the pinnacle of power before reality-warping comes into play. At level 50, our heroes and villains should be famous, respected and feared people. They should have earned a place in the hall of fame and they SHOULD feel entitled to the good stuff. Becoming a god just takes these expectations up to 11.

Yes, it's arrogant. Yes, it's egocentric. Yes, it's demanding. That's the whole POINT. Normal people have to abide by the rules of society because they are judged by their deeds and their words, but gods are judged by their status. Gods deserve that kind of self-entitlement, something I just don't get from anywhere else in the game. Gods are the people who can claim "What I say goes!" and it goes whether the god is right or wrong. Prometheus is a complete dick, but he's entitled to be, both because there's nothing we can do about it and because he is a god. We don't mess with them. Not until we get to their level, and when we do, others can no longer mess with us.

I see some approach the game with humble acceptance, and for most of it that's fine. Not for godhood. Not for Incarnates. Level 50 is where proving ourselves ends and reaping the benefits of having proved ourselves begins. One central aspect that I would expect gods, demigods, Incarnates or whatever you want to call them to share is prestige, authority and self-indulgence. No, it may not be entirely fair, but when I'm a god, I get what I want whether it's fair or not. How I act decides whether I'm a good god or a bad god, but in either case, I am not limited.

People have often called me greedy, spoiled and lazy when it comes to certain aspects of this game, and I've always tried to defend myself. Not in this case. When it comes to gods, I WANT to be greedy, spoiled and lazy, because as a god, I should be entitled to it. I may not make use of it, but I should be entitled to it. The 1-50 game is fine as it is, but when we become gods, we need to transcend the treadmill of continuously proving ourselves to everyone and their grandma. We HAVE proven ourselves. Now it's time to act on that authority. No more people giving us orders, no more people squashing us flat, no more reason to feel humble. Humble is when you're level 5 fighting Vahzilok in the sewers. This should have no place in the repertoire of a god.

Anything a god wants or does should stem from the belief that he is entitled to have it and entitled to do it. The game should not argue with us on this, it should instead foster this feeling.

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Mind you, I know I'll be accused of wanting a boring game, and that's not the point. There's always more to accomplish and more power to chase after, but this can still be done in a functioning game with the right presentation. I don't need to play the game with cheat codes to feel like a god. I need to play a game which caters to my ego to feel like one.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.