mind/time?

I am thinking of rolling a mind/time alternate and I was wondering if there are any powers that are not worth taking. I have never played mind so any suggestions about the set in general are appreciated. I plan to solo about 60-65% of the time. Are there any things I need to plan for where mind is typically weak? I expect the synergy will be good between the two, but what can be done to boost effectiveness on the Psi resistance groups like the Lost etc?

Does nobody play mind?

Telekinesis is probably the most skippable power, followed by Total Domination. I can see the combo having some synergy but you lack a pet to take advantage of the buffs. The lack of pets will also make melee more difficult if you plan on using Time's Juncture but you could eventually build for Defence to get around that. As for boosting effectiveness against Psionic resistant enemies - don't get Mental Mastery as an APP, until then make sure to use Levitate because it doesn't use Psionic damage.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the help... I appreciate it. Any tips on slotting a build for the set? IO type enhancements.

I've got a Mind/TIme going right now at level 38, and I've played a Mind/Kin to 50, so...

I would disregard Snow's advice re: Total Dom. It's your ONLY hard containment setting control, and you don't want to be without it. Other controllers can get away with skipping their AoE hold because compared to immobs that do damage over time that are available to use every 30 seconds, a 20 second, no-damage hold that takes 4 minutes to recharge is underpowered. However, you can NOT skip this on a Mind Controller. You'll need to 6-slot it for it to be effective, but not having it will make you much less effective, unless you plan on soloing at -1/x0 your entire career.

As for Time, REALLY hard to skip any powers here. The only redundant power is the ST hold, but I wouldn't recommend skipping it as it will allow you to hold a boss, either by debuffing them first which makes the hold Mag 4, or by casting Dominate first and allowing the Hold mag to stack. Time's Juncture can probably be dropped in later levels if you team a lot, because you probably won't want to be in melee near an AV, but it's useful solo early on. Between TJ, your heal and Mass Hypnosis, you should be safe as a kitten in a Mack Truck.

One of the best tricks I've found to aid soloing is to take Distortion Field and load it up with Procs: it takes 3 damage procs (2 hold, 1 slow) and a chance to Hold proc. Doesn't do much against small groups, but in large groups it DOES make a difference and enemeis WILL die while you're picking off other foes with your ST attacks. The Procs will have about 3 chances to go off while the power is active. Some enemies will die without you even touching them! However, i should point out that these are PROCS and only have a 20% chance to go off. You should not rely on DF to kill your enemies for you outright, but it'll make soloing large groups more manageable.

One other thing to keep in mind (no pun intended) is that Time powers are END HEAVY. You MUST slot an End Redux into most of your powers, or keep a lot of blues in your inspiration tray. Same could also be said for Mind powers, as its play style demands a more blaster-like approach. And until you get Chrono Shift, you won't have anything to help out your recharge or recovery (beyond inherent Stamina, of course. However, at level 38 and with 2 level 40 End Mods in Stamina, I'm only now able to fight more than 2 groups without having to take a break. Leveling up was painful, I'll tell ya!)

So...essentially I should slot it and play it like a really end heavy blapper? Ok...

heh, pretty much. Other Controller primaries rely on DoT and Pets for damage. Mind has none of that. A fight will usually go like this:

Use Mass Hypnosis

Dominate one foe. Levitate. Mesmerize. Dead. (May have to use Dominate again)

Repeat.

Foes may wake up before you've killed them all. Confuse one, attack the rest.

Next group, if MH hasn't recharged: Confuse one foe, Hold another, attack the remaining one. Then defeat the foe you Confused. Otherwise, do as above.

If you get surprised by an ambush or there's a boss, or if your attacks happen to miss a lot, that's when you start having to use your buffs and debuffs.

How is the damage on the set? I know all sets have strengths and weaknesses clearly, but without a pet is the damage enough to offset that shortcoming when properly slotted?

The only AoE damage you get in the Mind set is from Terrorize. Solo, I have been pretty successful at using Mass Hypnosis to set Containment, and then hit them all with Terrorize. With enough Recharge, Terrorize can be perma.

Other than that, Mind is pretty weak on AoE damage. It has four options for AoE control -- Mass Hyp, Total Dom, Terrorize, Mass Conf -- any of which can lock down a group for a while. It has OK single target damage with your Dom-Mez-Lev attack chain. Confuse gives you a way to control foes without drawing aggro, which is a great way to take bosses out of the fight before it begins.

Speaking of . . . a Mind/Time may be the best "boss controller" out there, with both Mezmerize and Time Stop (after Time Crawl) being able to control a boss in one shot, plus Dom has "overpower" and Confuse can be stacked without drawing aggro.

Skip Telekinesis if you have to, but take everything else.

This is a "back of the napkin" analysis, so it isn't especially rigorous, but ... I'm thinking that a Mind/Time/Primal Forces Mastery Controller stands a "decent chance" of being able to Hold an AV through PToD, at least part time, on your own.

Step 0: Chrono Shift (and Hasten, if you have it in your build)
Because you're going to need all the recharge you can get for this, you're going to need to keep Chrono Shift going. Note that the values below do not assume the use of Hasten.

Step 1: Power Boost
This gives you enough duration to stack to 50+ Mag Hold at least part time.

Step 2: Dominate, Time Stop and Time Crawl (repeatedly) during the 15 seconds of Power Boost's duration
You ought to be able to use Time Stop twice, and Dominate at least 4 times during the 15 second Power Boost duration. This will give you at least 18 Mag of Hold going into the 20 seconds after your Power Boost duration ends to allow you to stack them together effectively. Use Time Crawl when it's available and both Dominate and Time Stop are recharging.

Step 3: Keep using Dominate, Time Stop and Time Crawl (repeatedly) along with Telekinesis, Total Domination and Distortion Field during the next 15-20 seconds while waiting for Power Boost to recharge
Over the next 20 seconds, you should be able to use Time Stop three times, and Dominate at least 5 times. That will add an additional 24 Mag of Hold to your Hold Stack, bringing it up to at least 42 Mag. Time Crawl ought to add another +2 Mag on the last two uses of Time Stop, bringing you up to 44 Mag or so. Add in Telekinesis (3 Mag) and Total Domination (3 Mag) and a Hold Proc from Distortion Field (3 Mag) while Dominate, Time Stop and Time Crawl are all recharging and you're up to 53 Mag Hold ... not including Controller Overpower (+1 Mag) and Lockdown Proc (+2 Mag) and/or Devastation Proc (+2 Mag) effects happening in a "timely" fashion to get you over the -53 Mag Protection vs Hold of an AV ... intermittently.

Step 4: wash, rinse, repeat Steps 1-4

Note that since the above is not assuming that Hasten is part of the mix, it should be possible to (with Hasten) increase the number of castings of Dominate and Time Stop during each 15 second window of Power Boost on/off such that a perma 54+ Mag Hold can be established on a single AV by a Mind/Time/Primal Forces Controller by themselves without external assistance towards building Hold Mag. Also note that with a second Controller on the team, building up ... and sustaining ... 54+ Hold Mag in order to Hold through PToD ought to be trivially easy for a pair of Controllers or Controller/Dominator combo where one of you is Mind/Time/Primal.



Hmm ... guess I'd better find some way to fit Hasten into my Mind/Time/Primal build then ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

This looks promising...slightly different style of play for a controller, but I like "outside of the box" type stuff. When I come up with a build I like I will post for some feedback.

I rolled him up last night and I played him about an hour got to level 6 and logged off to get some sleep. Do you recommend taking the fighting pool for the melee range aspects or should I focus on defense thru another route like CJ or stealth?

I'm no expert on Controllers but as for the fighting pool I'd really only reccomend that on a troller that is going to be in melee anyways such as Ice/, Electric/ or Fire/. I'd prolly use other tools with Mind/Time, but then I find taking 3 powers to get some def too much of a commitment in most of my troller builds since I want to take nearly all my controls and secondary powers. The loosest troller I've played thus far is my Ill/Sonic while my ice/time troller is really tight on my planned build. I'd imagine you'll find the same thing on Mind/Time as you play, but it may be worth it for a lvling build until you get to IO building.

Well I expect the build to be tight, but I liked the defense from steamy mist in the storm set I had on my grav toon. I see mind has a power similar in concept to hurricane, I suppose I could just slot it for end redux like crazy and leave it up on missions.

Edit: rather time has a defensive power. I also intend to try tk as I can always respec later if I hate it

From Mind, the most skippable power is telekinesis - it's end heavy and rather terrain-dependent (and insultingly doesn't hit enough targets to stop x8 spawns). The next most skippable is levitate, since it has rather bad DPA and you won't need the boss juggling so much with both mez and the quick 1-2 punch of Timestop + hold.

Time is a bit more tricky. You may consider skipping TJ, which is a big chunk of the set's mitigation, but otherwise not very useful to a pure ranged build. Alternately you can consider skipping distortion field, which has a negligible chance to hold and does not neuter spawns as decisively as -tohit does, but it's a decent proc machine and helps keep things in one place, which Mind does not do well.

Definitely go for defense. There are plenty of situations where controls don't work or are ineffective, and while many will cry "not necessary!", the fact remains that softcapped defense significantly increases performance. Arguments against building for defense are usually based on faulty reasoning that assumes defense builds sacrifice control/support power (they don't, and properly done, they control/debuff better than non-defense builds since you don't have to worry about aggro that much), or based on purist appeals to authority that say that controllers were "intended" for support and should not be designed any other way. That said, fighting pool isn't necessary since time gets high defense through farsight, so you can softcap without the fighting pool. CJ + Maneuvers will take you halfway there, IOs can do the rest.

MentalMaden -

Your argument hinges on the position that Controllers only fill a control/support role. You completely overlook the fact that its one of the most versatile ATs in game. You offer a very myopic view in your “counter point”. You even go as far as dictating a play-style choice disregarding the OP's request.

The assumption that defense comes at the expense of control/support is false. A good build will balance both (Laev. made a point to caveat this principle). The best builds will diversify bonuses achieving multiple goals by doing so. They are not mutually exclusive goals.

It's ultimately a players choice on what play-style and build strategies suit them. IOs, proliferation, and Incarnate have opened up the options even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalMaden How does soft-capping defense increase "performance"? You get hit less, how does that mean you are performing better as a controller? If neither build dies more than the other (which I contend) how is one outperforming the other?

I think its pretty safe to assume that by “performance” Laev. means increased survivability. With increased survivability tougher challenges (e.g. larger spawns or higher level foes) can be handled with greater ease. Less time on self preservation.

Building for defense adds another layer of mitigation beyond what is offered by any native controls/buffs/debuffs the controller has available. You can't tell me all things being relatively equal the controller with controls/buffs/debuffs is better than the controller with controls/buffs/debuffs+defense. You sure can't prove it without getting into outlier scenarios and/or poor builds as examples. Its simply not true. Extra mitigation holds the advantage.

Even if the two were equal in terms of survivability you are overlooking one major factor with regards to a +defense build strategy; the fact that defense often requires no action. In contrast the non defensive build would have to consume an action and expend endurance to offer similar results. All things being equal the defensive build would only expend endurance to protect itself. This presents opportunity to take an alternate action such as healing/buffing a teammate or debuffing/controlling an opponent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalMaden Focusing on recharge and end allows you to control/attack more ofter and for a longer duration. That sounds to me like "better controlling". There is no way having more defense makes your controls or debuffs better. The argument that staying alive makes you a better controller is total bunk because those of us on this side of the debate aren't calling for builds where you die a lot. If anything it's to the contrary. I have controllers with no shields and no defense that stay alive just fine and don't sit on the sidelines by any stretch. It's all about understanding aggro.

Your contrasting statement suggesting that recharge and defense are mutually exclusive is just silly. It may be a more expensive strategy or difficult to execute. Assuming endurance and availability the critical constraints, your build strategy is viable. Regardless it still doesn't change the opportunity factor at all. At greater levels of disparities and larger spawns the flaw of your “better controlling” argument reveals itself: controls and debuffs are diminished in effectivness, or in worst case, points of failure; a layered mitigation approach is more successful at surviving (thus allowing you to protect the team.).
Layered mitigation is the point of building for defense. Whether or not you want to believe it doesn't change the fact that a dead controller or a controller expending actions, opportunity, and endurance saving its own hide sure ain't saving its teammates.

People come here to get advice on how to optimize their builds. No one is calling for defense builds that neglect the strengths of the AT either. So what is your point?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalMaden Now before it gets all flamey in here, let me restate what I've said in a lot of threads on this issue. I'm not saying defense/resistance is a bad thing. I just think that it is better suited in a build that stacks with a primary or secondary power i.e. farsight, forcefield, sonic, etc so that you don't have to rely heavily on bonuses that take away from the most important aspects of controlling (recharge and endurance). Because yes there are builds that do sacrifice primary or secondary function for the sake of defense, when smart (and aggressive) play and a good build can replace all that defense. We have the mitigation in our primaries and secondaries!

...the first part of this section is about the only portion of your post I could remotely agree with. However all builds make some tradeoffs. Even the recharge builds do so. Its not a factor unique to defense builds.

Speaking of recharge. I find it interesting you don't talk about recharge's asymptotic nature yet you tout it as an absolute. The closer to ED you are, the less impact more recharge bonuses will have. Recharge builds favor longer cooldowns, each additional bonus is more noticable up and to the point of ED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MentalMaden A controllers job isn't to 'not get hit', its to control and use their secondary to keep themselves and their teammates alive and their enemies dead/arrested.

Wait what? So what effect does imposing control (and certain debuffs) on opponents achieve again? Oh yeah! Keeps me and teammates from getting hit. I believe certain buffs achieve the same effect as well. So what was your point again?

To the OP I second a defense build strategy and suggest Primal for access to Powerboost. Powerboost + Farsight is awesome sauce. Focus on trying to get Chronoshift close to perma too.

So primal mastery epic pool...working on a build I am thinking spiritual radial alpha maybe cardiac any suggestions?

Personally I went spiritual on my Ill/Time. I think you could go cardiac (I know there are times I wish I had especially solo), but I really wanted to push recharge for this build.

With most Controllers, I'd agree that going for capped defense may be a bit counter-intuitive. After all, if you're getting boxing (and slotting it)/tough/weave, Maneuvers, Air Superiority (for slotting), CJ, and other odd powers just to get defense bonuses, you're skimping out on your control and support abilities. HOWEVER, with */Time, it takes a bit of paying attention (and you need to take Primal Forces mastery APP), but you can get over HALF-WAY to the defense cap with just Power-Boosted Farsight. Building on that, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to build for Defense.

Here's the main problem with building for defense on anything but a melee character: You don't have debuff resistance. One (un)lucky hit, and your defenses will begin to fail. Worse case scenario: You're getting hit, and you can't heal yourself too well because you sacrificed slotting for defenses. You can't dish out a hard AoE control because you used it on the last group and it hasn't recharged yet. You can't debuff your foes because you skipped your second-best power because you needed room for weave. And then you Faceplant. Because you sacrificed everything else for the ability to not get hit, which failed you.

Again, that's a worse-case scenario, and one that could just as easily happen to anyone else. The main difference is that "anyone else" didn't spend billions of Inf making a build that was -SUPPOSED- to avoid damage in the first place.

That said, I have my Mind/Kin defense soft-capped (ranged), and it plays rather well. She also happens to have Recharge and Acc bonuses ALMOST as good as her main build, so I'm not losing a lot of performance. However, she can and does still get hit and dies if I'm not careful (like if i go into melee, where my RANGED defense is useless =P)

@planet J

Considering that the thread was about Mind/Time here is a build I hastily threw together. Yes it needs work; intended more to get your juices flowing. It would probably be easier if you posted powers you desire planet J.

I have played three iterations of Mind, not too familiar with Time specifically regarding IOs and any synergies they share. I included Total Dom; I prefer TK myself. I would probably try to massage the build to do something more with Time Crawl and Slowed Response possibly even add APP attacks. Slots could be pulled out of TD and the RES Shield.

Here is my ball park swag to chop on. Good Luck!:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

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@EmperorSteele:
Good points. It should be clear that it is difficult to protect against everything using IO Defense build methods. It most definitely has its flaws as you describe. I also think not every combination is capable of achieving such levels of defense nor would they benefit as much from such a strategy. Definitely case by case.

Cascading defense is a problem. Its a problem that adversely affects both defense and non defense builds. One things to consider, however, defense makes it less likely to get debuffed in the first place. I believe most debuff attacks are delivered via Lethal/Smash attacks(there are exceptions). If you do get debuffed its takes more consecutive debuffs to floor you as well. For this reason I think these debuffs have a greater impact on the non defensive build; they simply do not have any buffer before their defense is floored in addition to the higher likelihood of such a cascade.

With regards to Ranged Defense, it appears that a significant number of Mez attacks are tagged as Ranged. This extends a degree of status avoidance as a result. For me personally Ranged Def is often to difficult to achieve, other players manage to do it very well. Food for thought.

Warning: The following post is filled with facetious comments. No straw men were hurt in the production of this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man I think it is better to learn how to play the character without Defense first, and then see if you need it later.

Local Myth: You won't learn how to play the character properly if you pursue a soft capped defense build.

A defense build does not preclude you from learning to play the character as you level up. Most builds perusing defense aren't complete until the 40+ levels; others don't reach fruition until 50.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man There are trade-offs. If I take the Fighting pool, that means I'm using power choices, slots and endurance that could be used to enhance control and buff/debuff or using a power choice that could be used for a situational power that might otherwise help the team.

Local Myth: A defense build requires poor power selection at the expense of utility powers.

If you pick your powers based on what IO Bonuses they make available its easy to get in this trap. The recommended approach is to pick powers you want and design from there. This approach allows you start with utility as a priority; tradeoffs can be made from there.
Regardless most sets have one or two “throw away” powers that are widely considered to offer less utility than alternative options.

Local Myth: The Fighting pool is required to achieve a soft-capped build.

The Fighting pool is not required to achieve soft-cap to S/L. One recommended approach for avoiding the Fighting pool is to take Hover and Combat Jumping. Stealth also offers some defense and brings desired utility to Controller combinations that don't offer any native stealth. Be aware that the defense suppress when in combat. Another option is Maneuvers from the Leadership Pool. This selection brings additional utility to both the solo and team player.

If your build needs a place to put the +Def IO, you can always wait until later levels to slot this particular IO in your Resistance Shield.

There are several options. Notice none require the selection of the Fighting Pool.

I cannot speak to Ranged defense builds, its not my personal preference to peruse Ranged defense. Oedipus Tex is one I consider more adept at that strategy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man If I slot for Defense, it is likely that I have had to give up some Recharge or some other benefit that might help the overall killing speed or to complete missions faster.

Local Myth: Soft-capped Defense builds sacrifice Recharge.

A quick glance at the Set Bonus Finder in Mid's tells me otherwise. There are plenty of sets that offer both Recharge and Defense. The challenge is capitalize on sets that offer both.
There are some excellent builds posted on the forums (and some very crappy ones) that achieve high levels of recharge as well as the defense soft-cap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man On teams, your teammates should be taking the aggro . . . that's a Tank's JOB. If you are taking the aggro, then you are probably frustrating your teammates and not doing your job in the team. If you want to play like a crazy scrapper who can run into groups and just kill stuff, that's your choice but that's not what a team will expect from you.

Local Myth:Cox Teaming requires Tankers.

Oh no! Someone needs to tell the “All <pick an AT> Teams” they are doing it wrong.
I think its clear that CoX has done a great job at moving away from the “Tank and Spank” or the “Holy Trinity” of MMOs model.
Lets look at something:
A Tanker/Brute manages aggro by Taunting and generating Threat which draws the enemies attention away from teammates in order to protect them.
A Controller manages aggro by Mezzing and Debuffing enemies in order to teammates. A Controller can also Buff their teammates in order to protect them.
Amazing. Both perform the same function yet achieve it through different means. Does this mean Controllers and Tankers are always interchangeable? Not always, however its not unreasonable to expect a controller to manage aggro. If given a specific scenario where the “aggro monkey” cannot keep aggro off the team I damn well expect the controllers to step it up.

Local Myth: Pursuing Defense means you want to grab aggro

Local Myth: Pursuing Defense means you will be infected with “Scrapperlock”

I wont even address these two on how ridiculous your straw man arguments/silly assumptions are. Your two points have nothing to do with defensive build. You go as far as creating fictional motives as to why someone would want defense on top of associating fictional negative behavior with it. Nice try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man Solo, you have the tools to avoid aggro. I can certainly see where a Defense-based build would be more appealing for a solo character, but it is still a challenge to see if you can handle missions with the tools built into the AT rather than a bunch of IO tricks.

Local Myth: IOs use for the pursuit of Defense is unlawful according to Local Man law.

“You people are doing it wrong!” Its a compelling argument considering the same “IO tricks” can be used for bonus in recharge, recovery, etc. Which are “authorized” by you as “appropriate” use.

Local Myth: IOs remove the "challenge"

Breaking news. Some people enjoy the metagame of build design. For these folks it is the challenge. If you dont want to use them in such a fashion then don't. We are sorry we don't play the game like you want us to. No. Really we are!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man Defense certainly is a viable choice, but to suggest that a non-defensive build is somehow less viable is wrong.

Local Myth: Recommending a defensive build means= non defense build no good.

I don't see anywhere in Laev's post where its suggested that a non defense build is wrong. Considering the OPs desire to solo 65% of the time, interest in Defense, and selection of Primary/Secondary its a great recommendation and can be achieved with great ease. Considering your tenacity to misinterpret things it doesn't surprise me one bit that you manage to misconstrue Laev's comments.

This by far is the most laughable of all:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Local_Man I don't accept the argument that you can get plenty of Defense AND be well slotted for Recharge.

“I reject your reality and substitute it with mine” That's what your statement sums up to be. I bet you even expect your post to be taken seriously.

Have you done your “Due Diligence” in this particular area or is it a strategy that you have been unable to make it work for you?

Its a rhetorical question. Regardless of your answer, it reveals your ignorance on the matter. Even worse you offer conjecture without properly investigating the matter and try to pass it on as fact.

I really don't care if folks have opinions on this topic. What really bugs me is when poppycock and conjecture is offered up as an “authoritative” information, especially when your only retorts are thinly veiled straw man arguments.

I think I'll address you as "Conjecture man" or "Straw man" from now on. I'll even let you pick which one, they both suit you.

Expecting some false confidence from the naysayers I offer up my Plant/Storm/Ice as an example:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

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|4DB9D1A65C6F5316E8974BA3AB7FD686F3E3|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

and my Fire/Cold/Stone:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Code:

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1531;700;1400;HEX;|
|78DA65934B4F135114C7EFED4C7994027D40298F525B8A85625B1ADC9B58D468202|
|992B833A4D2411ACB4C9D0E3E96263EA30B45D06FE0D28DF1B1F503B853E34663DC|
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|6686D19FD9B6F3A6DA2CB936CBE136CB5C9B6529481BE054FF0026E4F512|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Both builds play well ,both solo and on teams. Please take notice they debunk the myth that it will cost billions to achieve soft-capping or that defense and recharge are mutually exclusive and impossible to achieve.

To the "cup is full" crowd: I don't care if I have influenced our ignorant veterans on the forums, as long as newer players get a chance to look at the facts and make their own assessment on what best suits them.