Regression towards the mean?
By
80sBaby,
Posted on: 2011-11-30 06:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I pick the Archetype that fits the character, not the other way around. Done, end of story!
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
I don't see why this is such a problem. AT homogenization is a good thing because characters get to be more versatile and less reliant on others. It means no more trawling the global channels for aggro management because everyone in the team has outsourced their basic survivability to someone else. It means no longer being at the mercy of support characters who deliberately withhold support just to impress on you how important they are.
The more homogenized the capabilities of ATs are, the less your fun is placed at the mercy of random internet strangers' ability to cooperate and be competent. You can enjoy your favorite characters solo or teamed, in any situation and any content. The result is more fun and less frustration.
Now everyone can take the initiative during combat and play in a superheroic, comic-booky way. There is nothing heroic about 7 people hiding behind a big guy taking potshots at the enemy. Maybe for the big guy, but not for anyone else.
Characters being good at only one "role" which fits neatly into the holy trinity of tank, support, DPS designed to enforce forced teaming is one of those great, stupid MMO concepts I never understood the reason for. Characters, especially superheroes, should be able to fill a wide number of roles simultaneously and have a range of options to support their teammates. With my fire/kin I can buff and control. If there's no tank I can soak up the alpha with massive layered defenses, if the team is low on offense I can help obliterate enemies with blaster-level damage. That's real tactics and teamwork, which will never be possible if all characters are shoehorned into roles which they must fulfill to the exclusion of everything else.
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THIS.|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
I pick the Archetype that fits the character, not the other way around. Done, end of story!
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...Really? That's ridiculous, and players like that should be ignored. I suggest trying a lower population server, I've never met a player that will deliberately withhold buffs simply to prove their worth.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I don't see why this is such a problem. AT homogenization is a good thing because characters get to be more versatile and less reliant on others. It means no more trawling the global channels for aggro management because everyone in the team has outsourced their basic survivability to someone else. It means no longer being at the mercy of support characters who deliberately withhold support just to impress on you how important they are.
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Originally Posted by Laevateinn
The more homogenized the capabilities of ATs are, the less your fun is placed at the mercy of random internet strangers' ability to cooperate and be competent. You can enjoy your favorite characters solo or teamed, in any situation and any content. The result is more fun and less frustration.
Now everyone can take the initiative during combat and play in a superheroic, comic-booky way. There is nothing heroic about 7 people hiding behind a big guy taking potshots at the enemy. Maybe for the big guy, but not for anyone else. Characters being good at only one "role" which fits neatly into the holy trinity of tank, support, DPS designed to enforce forced teaming is one of those great, stupid MMO concepts I never understood the reason for. Characters, especially superheroes, should be able to fill a wide number of roles simultaneously and have a range of options to support their teammates. |
Take the X-Men and the Fantastic Four for a different example, another two very popular and well-known comic book titles. Here are two teams who are enthralling to read about because there is no one all-powerful person among them. You don't see The Thing or Wolverine shooting much, and you don't see Cyclops being the first one to jump into a horde of incoming enemies. Sure, Cyclops has some hand-to-hand combat skills, but he is just as squishy as any human while up close. Yet he is still an interesting and popular character.
There's nothing wrong with either version. But in the grand scheme of the wide comic book universes, the iconic superheroes who are known for "doing it all" are the minority. So a game based in a superhero universe has to be balanced around the fact that the majority of the characters likely will not be able to "do it all," and simply provide the tools/achievable levels of power for those who do wish to do it all.
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Originally Posted by Laevateinn
With my fire/kin I can buff and control. If there's no tank I can soak up the alpha with massive layered defenses, if the team is low on offense I can help obliterate enemies with blaster-level damage. That's real tactics and teamwork, which will never be possible if all characters are shoehorned into roles which they must fulfill to the exclusion of everything else.
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I do not wish to come off as condescending. Indeed, your post represents the desires of many players. I myself have a couple "do it all" iconic heroes. But the majority of my characters are not, and I think that holds true for much of the player base, around which the game has to be balanced.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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Well I believe this is how the ATs have been reorganized in the character creator, the ATs are grouped into a broader role and each AT within the role is where you find the AT specifics/differences.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
On the other hand, is that not the point of having individual archetypes: to have characters that fulfill specific roles on a team to maintain balance?
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So you don't need a specific AT, but you do want to cover broad roles (which is what I mentioned in my earlier post).
This is a more inclusive approach.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
Odds are, if you have 4 Scrappers on a team already, you are probably going to be looking for a buffing/debuffing character, as opposed to more damage. Though I agree, to encourage that on trials would be preposterous.
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Defenders, Corrs, Controllers, MMs & even VEATs can fill in here.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
I would have preferred the Incarnate powers be more tailored to individual archetypes, based on existing archetypical definitions. In other words, while any character would have access to any Incarnate powers, a Blaster's Judgement power would out-shine anyone else's in terms of raw power, where as their Interface debuff numbers or Destiny buff numbers would not be as impressive as those from a buff/debuff archetype. The same end-result would be achieved in that any character would be able to bring "X, Y, and Z," however individual archetypes would still shine by being able to provide more of X, Y, or Z (depending on the archetype).
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The Incarnate powers fill broad gaps, but they don't substitute or replace any AT/Role completely.
If you make X the strongest at a particularly ability, and that ability is the most sought after - you now have a reason for one AT to be sought above others and for others to be excluded if their specialty is not seen as valuable.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I like Tankers for the simple fact that I am required to put MUCH less effort into survival, and can slot for other things instead. A combination like Super Reflexes/Street Justice for example, can be softcapped by level 24 using just power choices and SOs. That leaves me room to do things like slot a silly number of procs in my attacks to up my damage output. With lots of recharge, a Street Justice character with proced out powers will deal a significant amount of damage over time.
I can't do that with a Street Justice/Super Reflexes Scrapper or Brute, because I have to spend a good chunk of my slotting chasing the soft-cap that the Tank got to on SOs. Yes, Scrappers and Brutes can be built to be survivable, but how much of your IO slotting was spent getting there? |
QFT.
IMO no AT is "obsolete" yet but a few are definitely much too close for comfort in a few cases.
I posted already that I think Tankers should get APP powers lifted from the Defender sets that allow them to be true force multipliers and function like a "Paladin" character. Or you could have a small portion of a Tanker's armor apply to all team members within 30ft, regardless of APPs (though I'd still like a healer-ish APP for Tankers just because its such a good fit for them and there are no support-lite melee ATs at all.)
I would do the reverse for Defenders: give them more personal armor in their APPs. Every APP already contains the Slash/Lethal armor edition. Pump that power up by merging it with the Fire/En/Cold/Dark/Psi armor, as if they had both powers.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Right but at that point you are looking for "Support", and that's pretty broad. As opposed to people looking for "Defenders and Corrs"
Defenders, Corrs, Controllers, MMs & even VEATs can fill in here. |
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
On the contrary I think this would be less inclusive.
The Incarnate powers fill broad gaps, but they don't substitute or replace any AT/Role completely. If you make X the strongest at a particularly ability, and that ability is the most sought after - you now have a reason for one AT to be sought above others and for others to be excluded if their specialty is not seen as valuable. |
Plus, I'm not talking about huge discrepancies here. The variation of Incarnate power numbers from archetype to archetype would carry a similar (if not the same) ratio as it does now. For example: A Defender's Destiny buff would be the best in the game, followed very closely by Corruptors and Masterminds, but leaving Blaster numbers in the dust. Conversely, a Blaster's Judgement numbers really would not vary that much from a Scrapper's or Dominator's, but would dwarf the Judgement numbers of a Controller. What you would be left with is a Blaster that will still shine it its defined role (damage output) while also being able to grant him/herself and his/her team some buffs without stepping on the toes of Buff/Debuff specific archetypes.
Granted, Incarnate powers are but a small fraction of abilities when compared with a character's entire array of powers, and even with the current situation (Incarnate buff/debuff/damage numbers being standard across archetypes), I don't see any blaster stepping on any support archetype's toes. I am strictly speaking from a personal point of view when I say that I wish Incarnate power numbers followed archetypical roles.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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Back before the softcap era, around i13 or so, I frequently read posts of support squishies withholding buffs (usually debuffers who were snubbed for not being healers) and tankers not using taunt (usually due to scrapper envy). Of course, such posts vanished with the increasing level of AT homogenization. Forumites aren't representative of the playerbase in general, and correlation does not imply causation - but it's an interesting coincidence.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
...Really? That's ridiculous, and players like that should be ignored. I suggest trying a lower population server, I've never met a player that will deliberately withhold buffs simply to prove their worth.
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Not every superhero is Superman. True enough, Superman is a very popular title amongst comic book fans, and one of the best known superheroes amongst general population. For those who want to build heroes on-par with Superman (heroes that can do it all), the Devs have given us Ancillary Power Pools, IO sets with stat boosting bonuses, and the Incarnate System. Take the X-Men and the Fantastic Four for a different example, another two very popular and well-known comic book titles. Here are two teams who are enthralling to read about because there is no one all-powerful person among them. You don't see The Thing or Wolverine shooting much, and you don't see Cyclops being the first one to jump into a horde of incoming enemies. Sure, Cyclops has some hand-to-hand combat skills, but he is just as squishy as any human while up close. Yet he is still an interesting and popular character. There's nothing wrong with either version. But in the grand scheme of the wide comic book universes, the iconic superheroes who are known for "doing it all" are the minority. So a game based in a superhero universe has to be balanced around the fact that the majority of the characters likely will not be able to "do it all," and simply provide the tools/achievable levels of power for those who do wish to do it all. |
Personally, I always felt that forced specialization was more of an MMO trope (specifically a D&D trope) than a superhero one. It's really MMOs, with their requirement to enforce forced teaming, that have inflicted crippling overspecialization on characters. Note that I have nothing against specialists who are only good at one thing. I enjoy playing with weak characters and being the Supergirl to their Cyclops. However, the option to do both needs to be more widely available, not just at 50.
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"Teamwork" implies working as a team, relying on others for certain tasks while you hold up your end. Ignoring the fact that Fire/Kin controllers are considered to be a strong outlier amongst controllers... I bet your Fire/Kin wasn't always able to do all of that. I said in an earlier post: Yes, by level 50 and beyond, with all the tools available there, there will definitely be archetype homogenization. I believe the concern here is homogenization and/or lessening of significance of certain archetypes in the 1-50 game. I do not wish to come off as condescending. Indeed, your post represents the desires of many players. I myself have a couple "do it all" iconic heroes. But the majority of my characters are not, and I think that holds true for much of the player base, around which the game has to be balanced. |
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I'm sorry but I disagree.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I posted already that I think Tankers should get APP powers lifted from the Defender sets that allow them to be true force multipliers and function like a "Paladin" character.
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They have way too much direct personal mitigation to really ever function as a true force multiplier.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I would do the reverse for Defenders: give them more personal armor in their APPs. Every APP already contains the Slash/Lethal armor edition. Pump that power up by merging it with the Fire/En/Cold/Dark/Psi armor, as if they had both powers.
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Defenders already get better numbers from all of the resistance and defense toggles/powers they can take.
Defender Farsight + PB is positively ludicrous for example.
How easy is it to softcap a Traps Defender vs. a Corr or MM for example?
You give them this and the vigilance damage boost needs to go away, otherwise solo they totally and completely outclass Corrs (as the damage boost brings them very close to Corrs damage wise while solo).
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
These two statements seem to contradict each other, unless I am misunderstanding. If "support" archetypes all gave similar numbers of (for example) Destiny buffs, and that group of numbers were better than Destiny buff numbers of other ATs, would not the same goal be achieved? A league leader would do the same thing one would do now when they are lacking support: look for support archetypes.
Plus, I'm not talking about huge discrepancies here. The variation of Incarnate power numbers from archetype to archetype would carry a similar (if not the same) ratio as it does now. For example: A Defender's Destiny buff would be the best in the game, followed very closely by Corruptors and Masterminds, but leaving Blaster numbers in the dust. |
Those two contradict each other, and get back to the idea that if one AT is the best at X incarnate ability, then that will be the AT sought after for Y trial/conent.
I could almost support the idea that "support" ATs might get better numbers at something - if it was equal across all of the ATs labeled as "support"
But that's a stick proposition. Corrs are labeled as both Ranged damage and Support - do they get better numbers at both of those things?
Honestly I really don't think its needed. Incarnate powers are not a substitute for entire ATs or roles, what they really do is smooth out the edges where leagues might normally be lacking X to give all leagues an overall better chance of success in general, IMO anyay.
One of the side benefits of this approach is that ATs like Stalkers which are generally underrepresented and unpopular are capable of walking into a zone and broadcasting "LF UGT, have Clarion T4" or "LF MoKeyes, Have Rebirth T4" - suddenly that normally unpopular AT has a better chance of making it on a league as they add something of equal value in incarnate powers as any other AT.
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Know what I wish were obsolete?|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
The following ATs are mostly obsolete: Tanks, Defenders & Blasters - there's plenty of other toons that do their job as well if not better.
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People insisting that a certain AT or powerset is obsolete. Who really gives a flying rat's rear? Play what you like. Don't sweat what other people play. If you want to get your undies in a wad over what some spreadsheet is "best" by some measurement, well, good for you. Pick what you like by that. Most people *don't care.* They'll play what sounds interesting. (Or they'll be so stuck in the holy trinity from other MMOs they'll be looking for something else entirely.)
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA