Help clarify Fire/Kin hype
By
CatAstrophy,
Posted on: 2011-11-27 04:56 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
First, what lvl is your troller? Until you get FS, you don't see the real DPS boost.
I haven't played the two sets together, but I think once you have imps and FS you'll see the DPS hit the ceiling. I think your friend is seeing a lot of Defs with the combo since they just got Fire Blast last prolif and Fire/Kin Cors are pretty dang hot when they get rolling. I've seen a lot of all 3 ATs on the two servers I play (Virtue and Exalted) and it's pretty hard to suck with Kinetics (I've got a Kin/Dark Def and I get giddy when I play him, even though I secretly burn inside for not making him a cor).
Contained fulcrum shifted sweatyfeet = a ton of damage.
Thank you for that bit of info. It seems like I should go with Corr instead of Troller. Any further input is appreciated.
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Fire/kin controllers used to be the most famous farmers. They do have good damage on higher levels with burning feats and fs (+imps help).
"If you want to win you must not lose."
"Easiest way to turn defeat into a victory is to put on the enemy's uniform"
"Better strategic retreat than dishonorable defeat"
- Il Numero Uno (The Number One)
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Seconded, with a Contained, Fulcrum Shifted Seismic Smash on top.
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Originally Posted by MikeRobe
Contained fulcrum shifted sweatyfeet = a ton of damage.
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Both Fire/Kin trollers and Fire/Kin Corrs are very good (I play and love both of them). The Corr will have better damage overall and be more bursty, as well as having a higher damage cap and the awesomeness that is triple scourging Rain of Fire. The Troller will have way better mitigation and better damage at lower levels (before the corr gets fulcrum shift), but also will have issues in situations where it can't gain containment damage, so fighting enemies with mez resistance (like cimerorans or incarnate trial AVs) can mean a significant loss in DPS whereas a corr's damage will be much more consistant.
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Originally Posted by Inokis
Thank you for that bit of info. It seems like I should go with Corr instead of Troller. Any further input is appreciated.
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Fire/Kin/Stone controllers will deal stupid amounts of damage.
You have:
Fire Cages to set up Containment.
Flashfire to stun them so they can't fight back.
Hot Feet ticking away at them.
Imps slapping them.
Fissure providing the AoE punch (which ALSO stuns them)
Seismic Smash dealing huge amounts of damage, on top of being a mag 4 hold (it'll hold bosses in one hit)
And then add Fulcrum Shift, which will keep you more or less permanently at your damage cap of 300% on top of enhancements.
Controllers aren't the most damaging AT you can combine Fire and Kinetics on, bt they are by far the safest. You have enough mitigation in your primary that very little will be able to fight back, not the case with corruptors or defenders.
Truth: Dead characters deal zero damage. A Fire/Kin controller will spend less time dead than a defender or corruptor, with the end result being dealing more damage over a period of time.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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iirc, enhancements cut into your damage cap.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And then add Fulcrum Shift, which will keep you more or less permanently at your damage cap of 300% on top of enhancements.
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| Truth: Dead characters deal zero damage. A Fire/Kin controller will spend less time dead than a defender or corruptor, with the end result being dealing more damage over a period of time. |
I appreciate the posts all of you have contributed. What I seem to get out of it all is that theres no wrong path to a fire/kin AT. Most people use either Corr or Troller but overall its just a style you choose. Is that the correct interpretation?
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
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I wouldn't do it on a Defender, not that it would be bad persay, but that either a Troller or Corr would be strictly better.|
Originally Posted by Inokis
What I seem to get out of it all is that theres no wrong path to a fire/kin AT.
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| Most people use either Corr or Troller but overall its just a style you choose. |
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Not exactly. |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
iirc, enhancements cut into your damage cap.
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If you watch your damage buff display, which I do frequently, you'll notice that your maximum total damage buff will cap at 300%.
That counts damage set bonuses, build up effects, Fulcrum Shift, Assault, and inspirations. But it is NOT counting the enhancement of your powers against that cap. If it were, your damage buff display would start at whatever the enhancement level is of the power you are currently using.
You'll reach a maximum amount of damage you can do with a given power that is hardcoded into the AT you are playing, but enhancements aren't really part of that equation.
It's more complicated than that, but the gist is there.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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This is a confusing post to me. I thought damage was capped, by power, by something as simple as min(AT cap, Enhancements + Σ(damage buffs)). The number on the attributes can't show enhancements because, to state the obvious, that will vary by each power. Enhancements are very much a part of what the max damage is, unless I've been terribly misunderstanding how damage caps work for years now.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not exactly.
If you watch your damage buff display, which I do frequently, you'll notice that your maximum total damage buff will cap at 300%. That counts damage set bonuses, build up effects, Fulcrum Shift, Assault, and inspirations. But it is NOT counting the enhancement of your powers against that cap. If it were, your damage buff display would start at whatever the enhancement level is of the power you are currently using. You'll reach a maximum amount of damage you can do with a given power that is hardcoded into the AT you are playing, but enhancements aren't really part of that equation. It's more complicated than that, but the gist is there. |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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This. The Damage Bonus attribute caps at 300% (for controllers) regardless of what enhancements you have in the power you are using. FS and Siphon Power contribute directly towards that. You can cap damage with about ~10 FS buffs. Very easy to hit a x8 spawn on a full team or while farming.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not exactly.
If you watch your damage buff display, which I do frequently, you'll notice that your maximum total damage buff will cap at 300%. That counts damage set bonuses, build up effects, Fulcrum Shift, Assault, and inspirations. But it is NOT counting the enhancement of your powers against that cap. If it were, your damage buff display would start at whatever the enhancement level is of the power you are currently using. You'll reach a maximum amount of damage you can do with a given power that is hardcoded into the AT you are playing, but enhancements aren't really part of that equation. It's more complicated than that, but the gist is there. |
In terms of playstyle, I would imagine Corruptors are played more at range (like a blaster) to make full use of cones (Fire Breath). (This opinion is coming from a Fire/MM blaster.) FS buffs are based on the PBAoE from the enemy, so being in melee is definitely better. To me, this makes a softcapped S/L Controller a bit better (because of Hot Feet and Earth epic). Not to mention how the Trans pair operates as well. For a Corr, I would imagine "jousting" or hopping in/out of melee is a much more realistic playstyle. "But I will get smashed in melee!" you might say.. that's where the controls help a whole lot
YMMV
Best,
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
I just did some testing.
Hot feet:
100% base = 7.65 damage (what it says directly on the power)
enhanced 98.3% (198.3% total) = 15.16 damage (what it says directly on the power)
7.5% damage bonus (from IO sets); 205.8% total = 16 damage to an even level LT, during an in game test. Call it 200% damage for calculation purposes.
I buffed my Damage Bonus now to 300% (blue, maxed out). Hot Feet did 31 damage. Basically, it is doing 200% (from before) + another 200%. Double damage, effectively. 200% x 2 is obviously 400%, hitting the AT cap... meaning that extra 100% did nothing (we would expect the 200% + 300% bonus, right?). Even though my AT Damage Bonus cap was reached, the Hot Feet power itself capped out 100% ago. While that "extra" 100% would deliver to powers that do damage, but are not enhanced for damage (perhaps Char), it is wasted on an already enhanced Hot Feet.
TL;DR: For controllers, if your HF is already 100% damage-enhanced, you only need 200% bonus damage to hit the AT cap. This is why so many Fire/Kin users use procs instead of damage enhancers in HF.
MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
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True, enhancements don't literally reduce your damage cap - it'll always turn light blue at 300% (or the appropriate number for other ATs), no matter what you slot. But if you also have 95% damage enhancement in a power, then you're at +395% damage in that power, which is then capped at 300. So slotting more damage gives you less room to benefit from buffs.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not exactly.
If you watch your damage buff display, which I do frequently, you'll notice that your maximum total damage buff will cap at 300%. |
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Exactly. Bring forth the procs!|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
True, enhancements don't literally reduce your damage cap - it'll always turn light blue at 300% (or the appropriate number for other ATs), no matter what you slot. But if you also have 95% damage enhancement in a power, then you're at +395% damage in that power, which is then capped at 300. So slotting more damage gives you less room to benefit from buffs.
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MT
Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Not exactly.
If you watch your damage buff display, which I do frequently, you'll notice that your maximum total damage buff will cap at 300%. That counts damage set bonuses, build up effects, Fulcrum Shift, Assault, and inspirations. But it is NOT counting the enhancement of your powers against that cap. If it were, your damage buff display would start at whatever the enhancement level is of the power you are currently using. You'll reach a maximum amount of damage you can do with a given power that is hardcoded into the AT you are playing, but enhancements aren't really part of that equation. It's more complicated than that, but the gist is there. |
108.4% (set bonus+enhancement slotting in Seismic Smash) = 179.77 dmg
+100% (208.4% total, 100% dmg buff showing in combat attributes+enhancement slotting) = 266 damage
+100% (308.4% total, 200% dmg buff showing in combat attributes+enhancement slotting) = 345 damage
damage cap (401.9% total, 300% dmg buff showing in combat attributes+enhancement slotting) = 345 damage
As you can see one I hit 300% regardless of how I get there my damage gets cut off. If you slot your power for 100% dmg buff then your effective damage cap in your combat attributes will be 200% for that power, not 300%, as the 100% from your enhancements is cutting into it. If you have a power that isnt slotted for damage then that power will cut off when you reach 300% in your combat attributes. It doesn't mean you will be doing any more or less damage with your powers at the cap, enhancing them for damage just means that you will reach the cap sooner.
Your damage buff enhancement isn't displayed in your combat attributes because it is different for every power. so yes your enhancements are part of the equation
A while back I made a Fire/Kin controller. It's been sitting on the back burner because basically I have too many characters to play all of them regularly.
I picked him up again this week. A friend of mine told me the AT that he sees using the combo the most are Defenders. I thought we discussed this and the best was trollers.
I asked around on diff servers, some people were downright rude and had no acceptable input, some had advice but the AT for it was varied in responses.
Now I have seen people in the game raving about Fire/Kin dps etc. I don't see it on my troller. So what is the majority consensus on the Fire/Kin AT?
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