Give Tanks Regen Debuff Resistance
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2011-11-23 02:48 in Suggestions and Ideas
I'm pretty sure you can't debuff regen to the point where you actually start to lose health from it. Just saying.
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Also, if Regen is the only thing your Tanker has over other ATs, then you're doing something really wrong. The only set that really needs to worry about -Regen is Willpower.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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In the early levels of Praetoria, you're not exactly using your final build. However, even otherwise, a Tank's fast regen is the primary reason you put them out front. They're there to absorb damage for the rest. Take away the regen, and they've still got their resistance/defense powers, but their hp mean very little in a protracted battle because your healer is still healing the same amount of hp per heal. It will be the same benefit if they heal the blaster instead of the tank.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Also, if Regen is the only thing your Tanker has over other ATs, then you're doing something really wrong. The only set that really needs to worry about -Regen is Willpower.
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In Praetoria I don't even recruit tanks for my teams (I'm usually a MM myself). There's no point. They just get debuffed to death and then crash.
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Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
I'm pretty sure you can't debuff regen to the point where you actually start to lose health from it. Just saying.
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That's why I'm suggesting to give tanks -regen resistance. Not -regen immunity, just resistance. I mean like in the same way that most tanks have -def resistance. It's built into their powers in small amounts that add up. Tanks should have at least some advantage. It's plain silly to put them on an equal footing with the other AT's.
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In the early levels of Praetoria, you're not exactly using your final build. However, even otherwise, a Tank's fast regen is the primary reason you put them out front. They're there to absorb damage for the rest. Take away the regen, and they've still got their resistance/defense powers, but their hp mean very little in a protracted battle because your healer is still healing the same amount of hp per heal. It will be the same benefit if they heal the blaster instead of the tank.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Also, if Regen is the only thing your Tanker has over other ATs, then you're doing something really wrong. The only set that really needs to worry about -Regen is Willpower.
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In Praetoria I don't even recruit tanks for my teams (I'm usually a MM myself). There's no point. They just get debuffed to death and then crash.
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Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
I'm pretty sure you can't debuff regen to the point where you actually start to lose health from it. Just saying.
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That's why I'm suggesting to give tanks -regen resistance. Not -regen immunity, just resistance. I mean like in the same way that most tanks have -def resistance. It's built into their powers in small amounts that add up. Tanks should have at least some advantage. Otherwise it negates the whole concept of what a "tank" is supposed to be.
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A "Tanker's fast regen" is almost never why I put them out front. Their higher HP, Resist, and defense values are why I put them out front, and their ability to gain and keep aggro. I almost never think to myself, "That Tank is dying too fast, must be his regen being debuffed." In the lower levels, the HP difference isn't all that great anyways between the ATs.|
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
In the early levels of Praetoria, you're not exactly using your final build. However, even otherwise, a Tank's fast regen is the primary reason you put them out front. They're there to absorb damage for the rest. Take away the regen, and they've still got their resistance/defense powers, but their hp mean very little in a protracted battle because your healer is still healing the same amount of hp per heal. It will be the same benefit if they heal the blaster instead of the tank.
In Praetoria I don't even recruit tanks for my teams (I'm usually a MM myself). There's no point. They just get debuffed to death and then crash. Regen is one of the stats I monitor. It's very rare that I get into a fight vs. Praetorian CW and don't see it go full red (by which I mean dip into the negative) and stay there for the entire battle. That's why I'm suggesting to give tanks -regen resistance. Not -regen immunity, just resistance. I mean like in the same way that most tanks have -def resistance. It's built into their powers in small amounts that add up. Tanks should have at least some advantage. Otherwise it negates the whole concept of what a "tank" is supposed to be. |
Now, we can debate taking away -regen abilities from low level mobs, which is a bigger problem in general. I have no idea why the Devs seem keen on giving low-level mobs significant debuffs that can stack like that, but they do. We can also debate the mertis of giving low-level mobs energy and fire attacks while still only allowing defensive ATs to get their S/L shields at those levels.
However, I have yet to see a reason to give the entire AT -regen resistance. It should only be in heavy-regen sets.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Players and critters have a minimum regeneration rate of zero. Your numbers may go below that in display, but in actuality it doesn't matter because you can't regenerate slower than "no regeneration". There is no such thing in this game as "negative regeneration". You cannot LOSE health by going into negative regeneration numbers.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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It used to be that I didn't ask myself that question either. Until after about the 5th time that a tank that had been performing wonderfully everywhere else in Praetoria started flopping in CW battles. That made me start asking the questions. I realized that we'd been relying on that tank to regenerate some of their HP in battles, so the healer wouldn't be the *only* thing keeping them up. Then I tried running some tanks in Praetoria, and it confirmed my suspicions. In solo play, a tank's only hope of winning is to get into a protracted battle and simply outlast their opponent. You're not going to out damage them, or even out damage/hp them. You have to be suffering damage slow enough that you can regenerate it faster than you lose it. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
A "Tanker's fast regen" is almost never why I put them out front. Their higher HP, Resist, and defense values are why I put them out front, and their ability to gain and keep aggro. I almost never think to myself, "That Tank is dying too fast, must be his regen being debuffed." In the lower levels, the HP difference isn't all that great anyways between the ATs.
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However, if you face CW, they'll debuff your regen down to zero immediately and keep it there. No matter how slow you lose HP then, you're guaranteed to crash before you can win. (Unless you use the "buy lots of greens/purples, use them all up on a single spawn, then go out of the mission to buy more for the next spawn" strategy.)
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| Now, we can debate taking away -regen abilities from low level mobs, which is a bigger problem in general. I have no idea why the Devs seem keen on giving low-level mobs significant debuffs that can stack like that, but they do. We can also debate the mertis of giving low-level mobs energy and fire attacks while still only allowing defensive ATs to get their S/L shields at those levels. |
Maybe someone should take the same logic and apply it back to us players?
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However, I have yet to see a reason to give the entire AT -regen resistance. It should only be in heavy-regen sets. |
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Players and critters have a minimum regeneration rate of zero. Your numbers may go below that in display, but in actuality it doesn't matter because you can't regenerate slower than "no regeneration". There is no such thing in this game as "negative regeneration". You cannot LOSE health by going into negative regeneration numbers.
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Not true, because like you said, the tank has res/def powers. It takes more enemy attacks to undo any given amount of healing on the tank than it would to undo the same healing on a blaster.|
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
In the early levels of Praetoria, you're not exactly using your final build. However, even otherwise, a Tank's fast regen is the primary reason you put them out front. They're there to absorb damage for the rest. Take away the regen, and they've still got their resistance/defense powers, but their hp mean very little in a protracted battle because your healer is still healing the same amount of hp per heal. It will be the same benefit if they heal the blaster instead of the tank.
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Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
I feel like it's only fair for some mobs to be able to debuff regen, since that's the main strategy players use to defeat GM's and AV's. But... there's a reason the Devs saw fit to give them a resistance to it. It's because it simply made it too easy to defeat GM's otherwise.
Maybe someone should take the same logic and apply it back to us players? |
Tanks, except for the few sets that have +regen powers, don't have very much regen at all - well under 1% of their health per second before you add set bonuses, which they won't have at the low levels we're talking about. That level of regen makes very little difference in, say, a 1-minute fight. It adds up over the course of a mission, certainly, but if you're losing individual fights because of -regen, you would almost certainly be losing those fights anyway.
When you see tanks failing to be able to tank for teams at low levels, it has little to do with regen debuffs - it's because their defenses haven't matured yet and they just plain can't handle all the aggro from a spawn by themselves. Low level tanks who want to act like high level tanks need a lot of support from their team. -Regen debuffs don't help, but they don't make much of a difference.
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You're missing the important difference. If you have 500 max hp, then 0.6% of that per second is 3 hp/second. If you have 1000 max hp, then 0.6% of that per second is 6 hp/second. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
AV regen is powerful because their regen is very high. Level 50 AV's regen about 100 hp/sec.
Tanks, except for the few sets that have +regen powers, don't have very much regen at all - well under 1% of their health per second before you add set bonuses, which they won't have at the low levels we're talking about. That level of regen makes very little difference in, say, a 1-minute fight. It adds up over the course of a mission, certainly, but if you're losing individual fights because of -regen, you would almost certainly be losing those fights anyway. |
Tanks regenerate faster by virtue of having a higher max hp.
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When you see tanks failing to be able to tank for teams at low levels, it has little to do with regen debuffs - it's because their defenses haven't matured yet and they just plain can't handle all the aggro from a spawn by themselves. Low level tanks who want to act like high level tanks need a lot of support from their team. -Regen debuffs don't help, but they don't make much of a difference. |
It's an easy problem to miss if you don't actually take the numbers and calculate them. Every 173 seconds, an average, un-enhanced, character regenerates their full health.
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Right, I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm arguing that although tank regen is higher, it isn't a major difference for characters that don't have +regen, and I was objecting to the statement that healing a tank is the same as healing a blaster, which isn't true because the tank has mitigation.|
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
Tanks regenerate faster by virtue of having a higher max hp.
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| I would agree with you if CW weren't observed to be special in this regard. Resistance and Syndicate both also def debuff, but I don't observe tanks to fail as often when fighting them.[...] Every 173 seconds, an average, un-enhanced, character regenerates their full health. |
Negating the 6 hp/sec that a tank is regenerating is functionally the same as the enemies doing another 6 dps, such as by def debuffs. Against most enemies that is a pretty small proportional increase to the damage they deal.
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At low levels, their resistance is usually around 30-40%, between defense and resistance. They both |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Right, I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm arguing that although tank regen is higher, it isn't a major difference for characters that don't have +regen, and I was objecting to the statement that healing a tank is the same as healing a blaster, which isn't true because the tank has mitigation.
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1) - Take damage slower
and
2) - Regenerate it faster.
Both matter to their survivability, because the team healer can't just focus everything on one guy all the time. And, of course, at low levels, their mitigation is going to be spotty at best. Only so many power choices, and not all resistance choices are even available yet.
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| That's contrary to my own observations. I've seen low-level tanks frequently fail against any enemy group when they try to act like high-level tanks, and I haven't seen it happen any more often against Clockwork. |
With even a very, very small amount of regen, a good, strong tank might be able to hold an enemy at bay indefinitely on their own. Take the regen away, and there's now a clear time limit on how long they can go unhealed.
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| Negating the 6 hp/sec that a tank is regenerating is functionally the same as the enemies doing another 6 dps, such as by def debuffs. Against most enemies that is a pretty small proportional increase to the damage they deal. |
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I'll point out that, although players can do so with certain builds or buffs or tactics....|
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA
At low levels, their resistance is usually around 30-40%, between defense and resistance. They both
1) - Take damage slower and 2) - Regenerate it faster. Both matter to their survivability, because the team healer can't just focus everything on one guy all the time. And, of course, at low levels, their mitigation is going to be spotty at best. Only so many power choices, and not all resistance choices are even available yet. |
But this isn't a "Press button, Get bacon" type of game. You try to bullrush things in the game that aren't designed to be bullrushed, you'll face resistance in doing so. You don't get to complain and ask for things to be made so simple that you can do anything any way you want without the effort put forth to do so...
-Regen makes your Tanker more difficult to survive? Get some crowd control or some buffs. Take advantage of temp powers and/or IO bonuses. Get more than one Tanker or just obliterate foes faster.
Yeah, it's annoying that your Tanker can't sit and taunt clockwork all day and not blink like he'd do with Council or Circle of Thorn, but it's also annoying my Stalkers can't one-shot bosses or that my Doms can't keep EBs mezzed or that my Blasters don't drop whole spawns with their nukes. No, that just means bosses were made to be a threat and not Stalker fodder, that some things in the game aren't meant to be statues 100% of the time and that Blasters need not rely only on their nuking abilities.
-Regen isn't meant to be a special knee to the groin to every AT but only a tap on the shoulder for Tankers, it's to harm everyone *including* Tankers.
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I agree that the game shouldn't be as simple as pushing an "I win" button and waiting to be rewarded, but.... it also shouldn't be as simple as the enemies getting to push a "you lose" button and then having to just hosp your way to victory by hoping you take out one or two of them before you go down each time. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'll point out that, although players can do so with certain builds or buffs or tactics....
But this isn't a "Press button, Get bacon" type of game. You try to bullrush things in the game that aren't designed to be bullrushed, you'll face resistance in doing so. You don't get to complain and ask for things to be made so simple that you can do anything any way you want without the effort put forth to do so... |
It's a game of being faced with a problem and then using a certain amount of creativity to work out a solution. Usually your powers are supposed to help you do that in some way. You rearrange how they use them and overcome obstacles. However, for tanks and -regen there is no solution. No creativity to express, no strategy to work out.
The strategy is "You're not a tank anymore. Play your AT as a low damage scrapper and hope that works out for you."
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| -Regen makes your Tanker more difficult to survive? Get some crowd control or some buffs. Take advantage of temp powers and/or IO bonuses. Get more than one Tanker or just obliterate foes faster. |
Temp powers? really? What happened the "game not being made more difficult when the inventions system was introduced"? There is not suppose to be any such thing as an enemy in this game for which it would be necessary to resort to inventing.
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| -Regen isn't meant to be a special knee to the groin to every AT but only a tap on the shoulder for Tankers, it's to harm everyone *including* Tankers. |
That would be like giving an enemy a special resistance that disproportionately stops blasters from damaging them.
I haven't seen any enemy groups in the game where I've needed to invent anything, potentially outside of the Incarnate content, which isn't inside the bounds of what the Devs were talking about back then. Remember, the exact quote was, "the existing game hasn't been rebalanced according to IOs." Basically, anything they've added since IOs can be balanced by the Devs around the invention system, and this does include Praetoria, if they want.
However, I've Tanked Praetorian content and still stood standing, so I don't think it's as much of a need as a "if you want to make this easier, then..." statement.
Mobs with -Regen powers don't cause my Ice Tanker to suddenly keel over, nor my Elec/SJ Tanker. Nor my Fire/Kin Tanker. So again, I don't think that this is really needed as much as low-level mobs not being given significant debuffs and told to stay at range.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
The first time I ever noticed the -Regen was when I was tanking Praetorian Clockwork on my partially IO setted out inv/energy tanker who I think was somewhere around level 48 or so at the time. This was in the (at the time) new Tina MacIntyre arc, so we're fighting high level Clockwork, and it was a large team, so it was a lot of them and I was hitting the aggro cap of 16.
I had to use Dull Pain a lot in those fights, though honestly I suspect it had more to do with all the pure energy damage coming my way (inv tanker, remember?) than the -regen. Did I notice it? Sure. It was annoying, and when you're getting shot at by over a dozen Clockwork at once it does start to add up eventually to a point that you notice it. But I didn't really find much worse than, say, the cascading effects of -def effects from most bullet attacks. I adjusted my strategy to be a bit more cautious, and asked the support on the team to keep a closer eye on me and my buffs, and I used inspirations a bit more often than usual.
Later on I adjusted my final IO build to shore up my energy defenses a bit (they're equal to my lethal ones now, and it was fairly easy to do so), but that had less to do with the -regen as me figuring that at higher levels, I'm going to be fighting a lot more energy attacks, and with 90% smash/lethal resistance, I can afford to skimp on smash/lethal resistance.
Willpower tanks and brutes and Regen brutes take a beating from -Regen attacks, of course, but again it's a matter of adjusting your strategy. That, and debuffs are the bane of Willpower and Regen's existence anyways. As an inv tanker, I've had times when I've had to ask someone else to take point or to adjust things because we're up against any enemy that's pure psi attacks (Carnies and Psychic Clockwork come to mind).
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Regen debuff is getting to be an increasingly common mechanic in the way the devs design enemy groups. The worst to play against are Praetorian CW who routinely debuff you to the point where you're actually negative regeneration (meaning they damage tanks MORE than other AT's not less.)
Regen is the main hope a tank has (for most builds) of winning a fight or successfully holding off enemies while their teammates kill them. Their higher HP allows them to regen more per second than most others, which makes up for having incredibly slow recharging self heals, or no self heal at all, and mediocre damage (which makes it unlikely that you would last long enough to kill enemies if you didn't regen during the fight).
To be totally stripped of that, and in a way where not only do you lose it, but you know every other AT's resistance is EXACTLY identical to your own, makes the sacrifices involved in building your own indestructibility seem fruitless. You're very un-special in so many ways, why take away the one and only advantage?