Keyes for Dummies


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post
...because nobody explains things on Freedom ...

As one who has led, and will continue to lead, iTrials; that makes me

Edit:


Hopefully you are passing on the info./how to do it to others, yes?


Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I don't believe that to be the case. If leagues on which I play are at all representative, very few people join leagues via queues. I don't see how those few people explain why those who do join a league via the queue is likely to have a short wait in order to do so. That suggests that people only join the LFG queue at times when people are starting pre-formed, open leagues, and I see no reason that should be valid.
Say there is a preformed league of 22 players in the RWZ and they enter the BAF queue as an "open league". In 1 minute they enter, along with one guy who was wandering around in Talos for the last 45 minutes in queue.

Average time of wait = (22 players x1 minute + 1 player x 45 minutes)/23 players = 2.91 minutes.

So yes, that one guy in Talos was looking at a "3 minutes wait time" for most of an hour, as will the next person, and so on.

The only way that displayed wait would get fairly accurate for the "pickup trial joiner" is if almost EVERYONE used the LFG system to enter trials, and nobody did preformed leagues. If this game emphasized street sweeping, where you could hang out in LFG queue all day, that might happen, but otherwise it probably won't. Especially as later trials get harder, and start requiring more people on the team to do specific tasks, or have specific ATs/powersets, and so on.

I do sympathize with the OP, though, as from a written description, even with maps, it can be hard to figure out which reactor is which and who is doing which things on the team when different people are scattered around doing different things. For a sentence like "click the glowie and use the temp on the computer" to make sense you have to know where a glowie is and where a computer is, and what they look like. Glowies are in different places, I've never even seen the ones inside the bunkers. And rare is the league leader who takes much time to explain it, since there is a fair amount of time pressure, which means you have little subgroups of players who may be winging it as well. Or they may know exactly what they are doing, but you have no way of knowing if you don't know what to do yourself.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion View Post
As one who has led, and will continue to lead, iTrials; that makes me

Edit:


Hopefully you are passing on the info./how to do it to others, yes?
Oh yeah. I ran 3 MoMs so far, all on Freedom, and in the first time got lucky with a leader who explained everything to me. Second time I also got a good leader so I didn't need to say anything, although it failed because people wouldn't read what she wrote (happens a lot over there, even with the most basic stuff - for example, in EVERY Lambda I've been on, when that ginormous 'MARAUDER WILL USE NOVA FIST STAND BACK', well, I stand back and I simply know half the league will die (since so many people play melee nowadays, including me lately). Some BAFs are terrible, haven't failed one yet but when prisoners start escaping and the leader asks 'Where's the leak' and nobody answers I have to run like a madman on my lil' Stalker to find it and announce.

But on the third MoM the leader didn't say much and I instructed people. Of course we ended one of the battles with 3 seconds left because two of them wouldn't read when I typed (in caps, three times) 'DON'T ACCEPT DESDEMONA'S REZ'. But it all went well


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kioshi View Post
Oh yeah. I ran 3 MoMs so far, all on Freedom, and in the first time got lucky with a leader who explained everything to me. Second time I also got a good leader so I didn't need to say anything, although it failed because people wouldn't read what she wrote (happens a lot over there, even with the most basic stuff - for example, in EVERY Lambda I've been on, when that ginormous 'MARAUDER WILL USE NOVA FIST STAND BACK', well, I stand back and I simply know half the league will die (since so many people play melee nowadays, including me lately). Some BAFs are terrible, haven't failed one yet but when prisoners start escaping and the leader asks 'Where's the leak' and nobody answers I have to run like a madman on my lil' Stalker to find it and announce.

But on the third MoM the leader didn't say much and I instructed people. Of course we ended one of the battles with 3 seconds left because two of them wouldn't read when I typed (in caps, three times) 'DON'T ACCEPT DESDEMONA'S REZ'. But it all went well


I will say, sometimes people don't have league chat added to their chat window/tab...so it may be because of that.


It's all so "obvious" to us that aren't new to the whole thing but there may be some that are new and don't have it in their tab/window. I know I haven't checked to make sure everyone can read what I type (if I'm leading) in a long time but there are times when I wonder...


Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I don't believe that to be the case. If leagues on which I play are at all representative, very few people join leagues via queues. I don't see how those few people explain why those who do join a league via the queue is likely to have a short wait in order to do so. That suggests that people only join the LFG queue at times when people are starting pre-formed, open leagues, and I see no reason that should be valid.
The way I umderstsnd it is that EVERYONE joins a trial thru the LFG tool, as the league leader has to use it after they've formed the league to start the trial. Full leagues who join the LFG queue obviously have little to no wait, so you get 16 or 24 players worth of 'wait time = zero' to add to the pool from which the average is taken every time a league preforms.

Eco

Edit: to clarify, the 'average wait' isn't the time till you join a league-it's the time until a trial starts. Hence the skewing of the average downwards by preformed leagues, since all the league forming time happens outside of the LFG tool.


MArcs:

The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion View Post


I will say, sometimes people don't have league chat added to their chat window/tab...so it may be because of that.


It's all so "obvious" to us that aren't new to the whole thing but there may be some that are new and don't have it in their tab/window. I know I haven't checked to make sure everyone can read what I type (if I'm leading) in a long time but there are times when I wonder...
If I notice someone isn't responding to instructions in league chat I'll send them a tell. More often than not, people have league chat in their tab, they just don't pay attention to it, especially when the league has alot of pointless chatter, they usually will perk up when they see the bright yellow text pop up in their chat box though.


 

Posted

Keyes isn't the only trial with unintuitive mechanics that you won't find anywhere else in the game. Pretty much all of the trials are afflicted with gimmicks of one kind or another. The lack of truly useful in-game explanation is trial-wide, IMO, and the only working cure is the passing of knowledge from player to player. In effect, the Incarnate system has become dependent on the willingness and effectiveness of qualified league leaders.

The most organized and well-explained and coordinated trial run I've been on so far was a Master of Underground Trial led by a toon called Crux Enigma. From what I can tell, Crux has made doing these Master-of runs something of a second career. She (the toon is female, so please indulge that choice of personal pronoun, if you would) made it abundantly clear from the beginning, and throughout the trial itself as well, that not following orders would get you kicked from the league. This wasn't just a veteran with a schoolmarm complex, this was essentially a military commander laying down the law so that the trial succeeded and everyone got what they came for. It went amazingly smoothly, despite a moment here or there of heart-pounding uncertainty when the wrong thing almost happened once or twice.

Now imagine if every trial was run this way. Sure they would take a little longer (and for a UG run to take even longer due to lengthy and repeated explanations/instruction, you have to have players dedicated to the task), but I assure you that no noob would get left behind. And every noob would know how the trial works and what to do and why by the end of it; invaluable knowledge for all future runs. It is a shame that there is no organic incentive for existing leaders to cultivate the next generation of leaders; the whole process is simply left to each player to arrive at on his or her own through osmosis.

I know it is just human nature to form PUGs and run through the content like tourists, but I think that attitude does a disservice to newcomers and does little to institute a culture of discipline and informed action during the trials. There are a handful of really good leaders out there, but I wonder sometimes if the grind has gotten to most of them at this point and they just don't bother with it anymore. "Let someone else lead," seems to be the prevailing attitude, at least on Virtue, where the number of people LFT vastly outnumbers the people willing to form and lead them.

Despite the number of times I've done some of these trials, there are still things about each that I am learning, so I am not yet in a position where I feel I can shoulder the role of league leader without disappointing everyone. Plus, it simply isn't in my nature to lead; I think really good leaders want to lead, almost like it is a calling, and that just ain't me. Besides, leading a trial league is like herding cats, which is even less fun than it sounds (even for cat lovers).


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
institute a culture of discipline
And that sums up perfectly why there is a disconnect for me regarding interest the iTrials. I am not a school child, nor am I a soldier. I am just not interested in having to adhere to a strict set of rules - quite possibly dictated by someone half my age - in a video game.

I'd much rather play the part of tourist.


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gec72 View Post
And that sums up perfectly why there is a disconnect for me regarding interest the iTrials. I am not a school child, nor am I a soldier. I am just not interested in having to adhere to a strict set of rules - quite possibly dictated by someone half my age - in a video game.

I'd much rather play the part of tourist.
I totally get that. Sadly, the Incarnate content is not for you, then (I'm sure you've already come to that conclusion yourself; I swear I'm not trying to patronize you). In the trials, you are in effect a hero-soldier of Primal Earth. This is a war we are engaged in, not a whimsical tour through Praetorian Earth and all its wondrous sights. The very narrative of the content, along with the puzzle-oriented, get-it-right-or-you-die gimmicky nature of the mechanics demands a militaristic approach. History proves that such conflicts resolve best (i.e., produce the most wins) when there are knowledgeable leaders taking charge and qualified soldiers doing what they're told. But CoX iTrials are not exactly unique in this respect.

Most MMO "dungeon raid" content is not for the casual tourist either. For better or worse, the Incarnate trials are modeled after the end-game raids of other MMOs. With that comes an expectation that you'll learn how to adhere to a strict set of rules or you will fail the trials and get fewer rewards for your time. Moreover, you risk upsetting your leaguemates who may not share such a casual attitude.

This "l33t playaz squad" issue was my greatest fear when I went into it with my own desire for "casual play". I have found I have just enough of a stomach for the rigid structure of the trials to get one character deeply into multiple-tier-4 territory, but that's about it. I don't think I'll bother taking any of my alts through the experience. One time through is enough for me.


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller

 

Posted

Oh, I completely get that and no offense taken. I have friends who have played many other MMOs (CoH is the only one I've tried), so I've heard tales. I can't help but wonder what our tourist-to-soldier ratio is though.


(And it's not that I can't follow instructions very efficiently - well, other than Lambda where I can't because my graphics card won't allow it during collection - I just don't have much of a will to.)


Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by gec72 View Post
Oh, I completely get that and no offense taken. I have friends who have played many other MMOs (CoH is the only one I've tried), so I've heard tales. I can't help but wonder what our tourist-to-soldier ratio is though.
I suspect the tourist-to-soldier ratio is pretty high. And with that comes a widening in the gap between the haves and the have-nots. Since higher success rates come to those leagues that can implement coordinated small unit action, those players with less of a need to be the staunch individualist will ascend the Incarnate ladder fastest, leaving behind those who can't or don't want to conform. The soldiers become stronger, and the tourists remain weaker, making subsequent trials less attractive and less accessible to them. By the time we get to the Omega slot, I wouldn't be surprised to find nothing but seasoned soldiers still running the trials (and I fully expect most casual players to give up on the solo Incarnate stuff long before reaching the Omega slot simply due to the slow rate of progress).

Quote:
Originally Posted by gec72 View Post
(And it's not that I can't follow instructions very efficiently - well, other than Lambda where I can't because my graphics card won't allow it during collection - I just don't have much of a will to.)
When I was younger, I used to wonder how I would fare in the military since I have never had the greatest love for authority figures. But as I've grown older, I have found that constantly rowing against the rapids and disregarding the path of least resistance just isn't worth it anymore. I'm content to jump on a trial, follow orders (such as they are), and take my rewards thankyouverymuch. Being a lone-wolf iconoclast is just too exhausting.


NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller