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Adeon Hawkwood

 

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Originally Posted by Lothic View Post
I still believe people like Vice_Virtuoso are missing the point as to why the Devs decided to fix the Keyes trial. The original version of Keyes was not impossible and/or too hard to finish. I managed to complete many Keyes runs even with purely PUG groups over the last few months before the change. The REAL problem with the original version of Keyes was that for the vast majority of players it was simply way too tedious and annoying to play, especially for any kind of squishy AT. The "challenges" provided by the original Keyes didn't really stop many people from being able to actually finish the trial - they just made slogging through it far more of an arduous chore than most any other trial out there.

The changes we got to Keyes technically did not make it all that much easier to finish. Instead it just made the overall experience less annoying to deal with. If that equates to encouraging more people to give it a try then I'm all for that kind of improvement.
/agree with this, point very well said, the keyes trial pre change was not at all too hard (the badges were stupid hard but thats a different issue), the trial itself was easy but very very sluggish and extremely tedious/annoying with the pulse doing so much dmg all at once

since the change, the main source of hate on the trial has been alleviated for the most part and the trial on a whole is just so much more enjoyable


 

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Personally I quite enjoyed the old Keyes, however my fondness for it was based more on the flow of the trial than on the difficulty. I didn't mind the difficulty but it did make forming teams hard which I did mind. Given that anything that makes it more popular is fine by me.

I'd still like to see the difficulty tweaked up a little bit, primarily I think Anti-matter needs to arrive earlier, it seems that he doesn't show up until most of the terminals are activated and that kind of defeats the point.


 

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I'm not sure how I feel about the new Keyes. It certainly is easier, but...

I still see people getting lost. While the pulse and number of glowies were a problem, I think they overshadowed the larger problem that this trial is confusing. The conditions for using the power cells changes too often. People are not understanding why they can or cannot use the cell with the War Works/Anti-Matter present/absent, and there is no significant break in the action to explain the conditions for the next phase. I almost feel it would work better if there were only one set of conditions (Anti-Matter present, no War Works) that could be explained at the beginning of the trial. That would allow teams to assign tasks (taunter, a team to clear War Works, and a team to retrieve power cells). This is something we have in other trials to a degree (teams assigned to a location in BAF escape phase or to collect a specific item in Lamdba) and gives players a direction.

Right now, it feels like a league can be carried by 5-6 people who know what's going on while the rest scramble in confusion.


 

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Originally Posted by ketch View Post
I'm not sure how I feel about the new Keyes. It certainly is easier, but...

I still see people getting lost. While the pulse and number of glowies were a problem, I think they overshadowed the larger problem that this trial is confusing. The conditions for using the power cells changes too often. People are not understanding why they can or cannot use the cell with the War Works/Anti-Matter present/absent, and there is no significant break in the action to explain the conditions for the next phase. I almost feel it would work better if there were only one set of conditions (Anti-Matter present, no War Works) that could be explained at the beginning of the trial. That would allow teams to assign tasks (taunter, a team to clear War Works, and a team to retrieve power cells). This is something we have in other trials to a degree (teams assigned to a location in BAF escape phase or to collect a specific item in Lamdba) and gives players a direction.

Right now, it feels like a league can be carried by 5-6 people who know what's going on while the rest scramble in confusion.

I . . .don't have an issue with that, as opposed to the situation of the UG where ONE player can ruin the experience for the entire league (in some cases that I've seen, intentionally).

And unlike other trials there is little that you can do to rectify it when it happens. You can kick the person, but if the person hits a judgment or rebirth while confused with 2:00 minutes or less versus the avatar (which is the specific cases I've seen) then the league is screwed whether you kick the person or not.


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I'll agree that the UG can be spoiled by one person, willfully or via ignorance. However, it's a separate and very different issue than the one facing Keyes. Both trials could be improved.


 

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So where exactly does the difference between "tedium" and "difficulty" begin? Because if the goal is just to reduce tedium, they should've left the pulse alone and just reduced the number of terminals needed. That and cut the length of the Underground trial map in half.

I'm gonna make my position on this clear. When it was first introduced, Keyes was by far my favorite PvE content in the game. It was tense and required coordination with healers or good inspiration management if you wanted to stay alive the whole time. It was fast-paced and challenging -- you went AFK in this trial and you're dead, I loved that. It brought characters into the spotlight who were normally glossed over and forgotten in the rest of the game: good healers to keep everyone alive in both the terminal phases and the Antimatter fight, and characters who could do lots of knockback to save time killing the Warworks around the terminals.

Now, it's yet another trivial grind. Hell, the past three times I've run the trial, Antimatter never even made it to us at the second reactor. The pulse can easily be out-regenerated now. There's no sense of accomplishment anymore, it's just another grind to get the reward at the end, like the entire rest of the game. And I really miss feeling proud of finishing something in this game.


 

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If they raised the pulse back up to the way it was before Key-baffin, then i know i wont have any complaint. As it stands the pulse is barely any trouble and even then its only felt by squishies.


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Originally Posted by EU_Damz View Post
If they raised the pulse back up to the way it was before Key-baffin, then i know i wont have any complaint. As it stands the pulse is barely any trouble and even then its only felt by squishies.
The pulse was probably the loudest complaint point here on the forums. My own complaints were about the AV fight's overuse of "gimmick" powers, and others complained about that too, but IMO far more complained about the pulse. Notably, the pulse was one of the biggest changes. If it were fully restored to its former "glory", I suspect the trial would plummet again on being formed. I think the pulse could stand to hit harder than it does now without causing that, and I definitely think how it scales when he's damaged seems very minor. But I didn't hate the old pulse.

On the other hand, it's rare for me to have a character with no self-healing, and I don't really do iTrials on characters that aren't outfitted with IOs, and decent +regen sort of happens accidentally in a lot of builds even if you don't aim for it. So I'm not sure my perspective on the original pulse is ... representative.

Ultimately, if a trial is a good challenge that no one plays, it may not matter much if we like it, because we won't get to play it much. If this trial was hard and fun, I think enough people would play it. A lot of people very vocally deemed it not fun. Sadly, I think it's now easy and still not fun. But at least people play it.


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American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
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WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
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Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso View Post
So where exactly does the difference between "tedium" and "difficulty" begin? Because if the goal is just to reduce tedium, they should've left the pulse alone and just reduced the number of terminals needed. That and cut the length of the Underground trial map in half.

I'm gonna make my position on this clear. When it was first introduced, Keyes was by far my favorite PvE content in the game. It was tense and required coordination with healers or good inspiration management if you wanted to stay alive the whole time. It was fast-paced and challenging -- you went AFK in this trial and you're dead, I loved that. It brought characters into the spotlight who were normally glossed over and forgotten in the rest of the game: good healers to keep everyone alive in both the terminal phases and the Antimatter fight, and characters who could do lots of knockback to save time killing the Warworks around the terminals.

Now, it's yet another trivial grind. Hell, the past three times I've run the trial, Antimatter never even made it to us at the second reactor. The pulse can easily be out-regenerated now. There's no sense of accomplishment anymore, it's just another grind to get the reward at the end, like the entire rest of the game. And I really miss feeling proud of finishing something in this game.
I know this is going to come off as me being something that rhymes with itchy, but . . . TOUGH.

Getting more folks to do other trials other than BAF/LAM trumps some (IMO) silly sense of accomplishment in a video game meant for relaxation.

The devs would rather have more folks doing more trials than having only a small number of the elite doing just a few other than BAF/LAM.

Or put in another way: anything that gets more folks running more of a variety of trials WITHOUT killing the participation in BAF/LAM that's needed to get folks to slot up the level shifts is a good thing.

I agree.


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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Ultimately, if a trial is a good challenge that no one plays, it may not matter much if we like it, because we won't get to play it much. If this trial was hard and fun, I think enough people would play it. A lot of people very vocally deemed it not fun. Sadly, I think it's now easy and still not fun. But at least people play it.
You said it better and kinder than I did. The last sentence being key.

People not playing stuff other than BAF/LAM (mostly) was what lead the devs to the original hair-brained-wasn't going to fly in any way shape or form, of putting limitations on BAF/LAM. The two trials that allowed folks to "level up" in preparation for the next set of trials.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
People not playing stuff other than BAF/LAM (mostly) was what lead the devs to the original hair-brained-wasn't going to fly in any way shape or form, of putting limitations on BAF/LAM.
This is really the key problem. The devs attempted to put limitations on BAF/Lambda and people raised such a firestorm that they backed off. Speaking for myself I think that putting limitations on BAF/Lambda is the way to go, I simply think they tried to put on the wrong limitations.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
I know this is going to come off as me being something that rhymes with itchy, but . . . TOUGH.
Yes, that's exactly how you come off.

Goes to show how terrible this game's overall community is. Start a big campaign to get the devs to remove possibly the only non-self-imposed challenge left in the game, successfully get it removed, then give a big middle finger to the players who get upset by it getting removed.

Was it that hard to leave Keyes as is and let the people who didn't like it run BAF or Lambda (or UG to a lesser extent)? The players who wanted challenge had one choice, and the players who wanted something more casual had multiple choices. Now only one of those groups have any options.


 

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Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso View Post
Was it that hard to leave Keyes as is and let the people who didn't like it run BAF or Lambda (or UG to a lesser extent)? The players who wanted challenge had one choice, and the players who wanted something more casual had multiple choices. Now only one of those groups have any options.
Yes, because that's not really the way the devs try to create content.

It is not a reasonable goal to expect that all content will be run regularly by everyone. However, content that is run by almost no one really should be viewed as a failure. As defined by this measure, there are many bits of failure to be found in CoH, but many of them are old and the devs are loathe to devote resources to changing them. They do not remain out of deference to the few people that happen to like them, but because it is deemed to resource intensive to make them more popular.

The other problem is that the iTrials are, by design, meant to be grindy. Everyone gets a degree of choice with respect to how much grinding they want to subject themselves to, but there is a certain minimum that you have to accept in order to expect to be functional in future iTrial content. Specifically, you need Level Shifts. It's fairly clear that lacking those is going to eventually lead to inability to contribute meaningfully on a league due to the purple patch. (Generally lacking high-tear powers, whether they offer a level shift or not, may ultimately represent a problem as well if the devs stick to mechanics like the Avatar fight in the UGT).

If you have to grind, and you are in the process of producing the new content that people are expected to grind through, what makes more sense for the devs to do: accept "failed" trials that aren't run by very many people so that the people only run the original trials, or give everyone they can as many things worth playing to at least give the grinding some diversity?

Your preference for a harder Keyes trial was sacrificed on the altar of the perceived greater good of the Incarnate system as a whole. The entire thing is predicated on mass participation - that's what large leagues and indeed the LFG queue assume. People get tired of grinding the same trials over and over. If they get new ones they hate, the participation in the system suffers instead of grows, the basic assumptions of large leagues and LFG queues break down, and the whole thing ends up in the bit bucket in the long term. That's not where the devs want it.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vice_Virtuoso View Post
Was it that hard to leave Keyes as is and let the people who didn't like it run BAF or Lambda (or UG to a lesser extent)? The players who wanted challenge had one choice, and the players who wanted something more casual had multiple choices. Now only one of those groups have any options.
Accessibility is king in MMOs. A great chunk of the playerbase doesn't want a WoW situation where endgame content is a chore rather than a fun experience. Keyes, to a lot of players, wasn't fun. It's changed. Get over it.


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