Quote:
Shield's good but it isn't in the same league as Invuln. I have both at 50 with pretty maxed builds and while Shield is certainly up to the job there's just no comparison in overall durability... Invuln takes without strain stuff that makes Shield grab for the candy or hope for team buffs to survive.|
Originally Posted by boppaholic
I don't recall seeing it mentioned, but I think shield is on par with invuln and wp (dark too, but because it can't cap HP I will exclude it from the argument for now). Shield can cap its HP when its soft-crashing T9 is up. It has the strongest DDR between it, invuln and wp (shd/invuln/wp in that order). And its defenses are capped positionally. So when it comes to psionics, I rank it as wp/shd/invuln. I don't know, I need to fawn over the numbers more, but I think shield is extremely survivable. Perhaps there's some sort of numerical analsys scoring system that can be done to determine which set out performs the rest?
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The one corner case where Shield has an advantage is vs Psi that has a positional tag (remember, not all Psi attacks have a position and will bypass Shield defenses). In all other situations the Invuln has a pronounced advantage.
Remember Invuln can also put up soft capped defense numbers AND it has considerable resistance backing it up along with a massive heal/+HP power in Dull Pain. Defense WILL fail on you and the bad guys WILL get massive attacks through your defenses. Where Shield falls short is lower resistance and no heal power to fall back on when defense fails.
Nothing can die faster than a defense tanker with a run of bad luck; you'll either be full health or dead before you can react. Invuln has those resistances to blunt damage that breaks defense and Dull Pain to recover quickly.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
This is what I came up with for Inv/KM.
I like passive regeneration as well as Defense.
Smashing Haymaker can be swapped out in favor of Kinetic Combat, and if you do that, You only need two sets, and the other two melee attacks can be slotted with Crushing Impact.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Invincible: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Kinetic Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Temp Invulnerability -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(3), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Quick Strike -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx(5), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg(7), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Dull Pain -- Mrcl-Heal/Rchg(A), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 4: Smashing Blow -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx(19), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg(19), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23)
Level 8: Unyielding -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(25), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(25), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 10: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(A), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(13), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(27), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(29), Mocking-Rchg(29), Mocking-Taunt(34)
Level 12: Super Jump -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 14: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 16: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 18: Invincibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33)
Level 20: Power Siphon -- Rec'dRet-ToHit(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(33)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(34), LkGmblr-Def(34)
Level 24: Body Blow -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx(36), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg(36), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(37), Ksmt-ToHit+(37)
Level 28: Resist Energies -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ResDam-I(39), ResDam-I(39)
Level 30: Resist Elements -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(39), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(40)
Level 32: Resist Physical Damage -- Aegis-ResDam(A), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(40), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(40)
Level 35: Burst -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(42), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(42), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(43), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 38: Concentrated Strike -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx(43), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg(45), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- Numna-Heal(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(46), Numna-Heal/Rchg(46), P'Shift-End%(46)
Level 47: Focused Burst -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(48), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Unstoppable -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Spiritual Core Paragon
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Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(13), RgnTis-Regen+(15), Heal-I(15)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), EndMod-I(17), EndMod-I(17)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Shield's good but it isn't in the same league as Invuln. I have both at 50 with pretty maxed builds and while Shield is certainly up to the job there's just no comparison in overall durability... Invuln takes without strain stuff that makes Shield grab for the candy or hope for team buffs to survive.
The one corner case where Shield has an advantage is vs Psi that has a positional tag (remember, not all Psi attacks have a position and will bypass Shield defenses). In all other situations the Invuln has a pronounced advantage. Remember Invuln can also put up soft capped defense numbers AND it has considerable resistance backing it up along with a massive heal/+HP power in Dull Pain. Defense WILL fail on you and the bad guys WILL get massive attacks through your defenses. Where Shield falls short is lower resistance and no heal power to fall back on when defense fails. Nothing can die faster than a defense tanker with a run of bad luck; you'll either be full health or dead before you can react. Invuln has those resistances to blunt damage that breaks defense and Dull Pain to recover quickly. |
Those are great points. If I had to really decide, I would probably say that a top-end invuln would still beat out a shield. They do have a heal, they have perma-HP cap, they have capped S/L resistance. And 5% more base resistance to F/C/E/N/T. When IO'd, an invuln can expect about 31% resistance to F/C/E/N/T and a shield can expect 23.25%. Now with AAO up (and enemies are within its radius), all enemies (including Psi) get a 7% debuff. So shield now has about a 30.25% effective damage resistance. So it turns out, it actually is very close to invulnerability, wouldn't you say?
Now, 40% of the time, a Shield can have their T9 activated (I'm not afraid of it's softcrash). So for 40% of the time, the shield will be HP-capped and will double its base F/C/E/N/T resistance (S/L will now be capped) so that it's effective resistance is 53.5% when you include AAO. So on average a shield tank will have 0.4*53.5% + 0.6* 30.25% = 39.55% resistance compared to Invuln's 31% for F/C/E/N/T. For S/L the shield will average about 0.4*90% + 0.6*53.5 = 68.1% S/L resistance (assuming it has tough). Still doesn't compete with Invuln's always capped S/L resistance, but it hangs tough.
Now I do understand that invulnerability's T9 will hard-cap S/L/F/C/E/N/T resistances for 180 seconds and will likely only have a down time of about 90-120 seconds on a high end build. But its crash is rather deadly... unless you run away (not a tank's proudest moment lol) or have great team buffs (in which case you would never need to use your T9, Shield or Invuln).
When I think of Shield vs. Invuln in these terms for survivability I really do think Shield is close but falls short (IMHO, I rank it as Invuln/Shield/WP/Dark in that order for survivability, excluding granite armor). Invuln's self heal and perma-HP cap is the tie breaker in my opinion... otherwise, I think Shield stays on par as they both are softcapped defensively (Shield can cap DDR whereas Invuln is 50%) and other than S/L, shield's effective resistance is about the same with Invuln.
Right now I'm working on an Invuln/MA tank. Level 28 so far, but I already am greatly enjoying the survivability. When I IO him out at 50, I'll see how I like it compared to my Shd/SS tank.
For fun, I thought I'd share my main tank. He is a Shield/SS/Soul. He is incarnated out (I only activated the Cardiac Core to show the main numbers, Destiny and Interface mess things up too much).
His perks:
He is soft-capped positionally. 34.7% Psi Defense.
He is HP capped when OwtS is up. He has 2894 HP (154.5%) when it's not up.
Not including OwtS, he has 49% S/L Resistance. 30% F/C Resistance. 25% E/N/T Resistance. 12% Psi Resistance.
With OwtS, he has 90% S/L Resistance. 54% F/C Resistance. 49% E/N/T Resistance. And still 12% Psi Resistance.
For debuffs:
With Darkest Night running and if Dark Obliteration (I treat as a perma AoE debuff) hits:
23.5% To Hit Debuffs and 21% Damage Debuffs.
My endurance recovery with toggles on is 2.21 end/sec. Plus 1 Performance Shifter Proc in there. I would like a little more, considerring rage and hasten crashes.. but I make due with the occasional blue or just slow down on my attacks.
Lastly, it's not perma-hasten/pet... but it's close. They both have about a 10 second down time. However, with FF proc in Footstomp, they will be occasionally perma.
For incarnates, I go with Cardiac Core, Rebirth Radial or Ageless Core (when I can focus less on surviving and more on killing), Reactive Radial (for killing) or Paralytic Radial (for surviving), and Void Radial. For Lore, I have Warworks because the options used to be very limited, but I may switch to Cimeroans in the future.
I'm not perfect, so please I welcome constructive criticism
Here's the build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(3), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(5), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(7)
Level 1: Jab -- Zinger-Dam%(A)
Level 2: True Grit -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(7), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(9), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), Heal-I(11), Heal-I(11)
Level 4: Haymaker -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(17), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(19), Mako-Dam%(21)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(21)
Level 8: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23)
Level 10: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(25), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(25), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(27), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(27), Mocking-Rchg(29)
Level 12: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 16: Kick -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 18: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(31), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), GA-3defTpProc(31)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36)
Level 24: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 28: Rage -- HO:Membr(A)
Level 30: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: One with the Shield -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(34), ImpArm-ResDam(39), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(50)
Level 35: Gloom -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(39), Apoc-Dmg(40), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(40), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(43), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(43), FrcFbk-Rechg%(43)
Level 41: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(45), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(45), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(45)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(46), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(46), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Summon Widow -- S'bndAl-Build%(A), S'bndAl-Dmg/EndRdx(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(50), S'bndAl-Dmg(50)
Level 49: Grant Cover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(13), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(13)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(15), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(15)
Code:
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Boppaholic does that pet like to hang by your tail sharing in every aoe on you?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I've got some great info out of this thread chaps. I should just point out that my Invincible Woman got to 50 on Saturday and she's now heading to the Rogue Isles for GW's PPP.
I've got to say I've really enjoyed her, and her damage output isn't as bad as I'd expected and there's not a lot that can give her too much trouble except she's weak to End Drain - but I've yet to respec her and IO her out - at which point I expect she'll rock.
I also want to Incarnate her... can't decide on the Alpha yet though, any suggestions?
Oh and for those who've not read through the whole of this thread she's a WP/Dark.
I've got a couple of others I'm working on now - finally after almost 6 years in the game I'm playing melee toons 
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I've got some great info out of this thread chaps. I should just point out that my Invincible Woman got to 50 on Saturday and she's now heading to the Rogue Isles for GW's PPP.
I've got to say I've really enjoyed her, and her damage output isn't as bad as I'd expected and there's not a lot that can give her too much trouble except she's weak to End Drain - but I've yet to respec her and IO her out - at which point I expect she'll rock. I also want to Incarnate her... can't decide on the Alpha yet though, any suggestions? Oh and for those who've not read through the whole of this thread she's a WP/Dark. I've got a couple of others I'm working on now - finally after almost 6 years in the game I'm playing melee toons |
Agility all the way.
Why not Vigor? The heal portion is good for both Willpower and Dark Melee, if she's having trouble with Endurance Drain, the Endurance Portion is helpful there, and Accuracy isn't bad to have.
Dark Melee/Invulnerability softcapped, w/Resilient. Its what I am currently doing on my Brute. It doesn't get much tougher without going full Granite. GL.
I don't recall seeing it mentioned, but I think shield is on par with invuln and wp (dark too, but because it can't cap HP I will exclude it from the argument for now). Shield can cap its HP when its soft-crashing T9 is up. It has the strongest DDR between it, invuln and wp (shd/invuln/wp in that order). And its defenses are capped positionally. So when it comes to psionics, I rank it as wp/shd/invuln. I don't know, I need to fawn over the numbers more, but I think shield is extremely survivable. Perhaps there's some sort of numerical analsys scoring system that can be done to determine which set out performs the rest?