Street Justice Endurance Costs


Deus_Otiosus

 

Posted

I was just looking over some of the powers in Street Justice and attacks with the same damage and recharge in other sets and noticed something a little odd.

Street Justice - Heavy Blow: 5s recharge, DS 1.16, 6.03 end
Kinetic Melee - Body Blow: 5s recharge, DS 1.16, 5.82 end

Street Justice - Shin Breaker: 8s recharge, DS 1.64, 11.86 end
Broadsword - Hack: 8s recharge, DS 1.64, 8.53 end

At this point, I'm accepting on trust that there's a reason for this. But I'd sure appreciate it if someone with insight into the design of the set could offer an explanation for the additional endurance cost of these attacks. Particularly since Initial Strike and Rib Cracker are on par with other 3 and 6 second recharge attacks, respectively, and Rib Cracker at least has a rare and useful secondary effect.

Again, not complaining, just want to know the reason. No complaints about the set overall.


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Posted

Maybe it's the combo system due to it generating 'moar damage'? I haven't bought the set but I teamed extensively with two SJ brutes while on my ice/time corr at level 25ish and I was very impressed how quickly they took down red bosses and orange lts. I was also impressed that both of them were complete end hogs with lots of endred and proper SO stamina slotting (I asked them, plus I knew the players and they know how to slot stuffs), they had to rest more than any Brute I ever saw/played except for a Stone Melee/Dark Armor, and my ice/time corr is already a major end pig, but they were worse in that regard.


 

Posted

DB gets endurance-free damage from combos, so does FM from dot ticks, to a lesser extent so do Claws/DB/SS/DM from their damage buffs, etc..

I don't think it's fair for StJ to have such a high end cost on powers. OP may have no complaints with the set, but personally I find it weaker and weaker the more I play it - and it's difficult to discuss that as people tend to be clouded by the fun they're having with it.

Going on a tangent here, but that attitude baffles me. We consistently get people who say "oh, I play for fun, not for power", but as soon as you suggest the set they're having fun with might not be that powerful, they jump at your throat. It's like they associate power with worth, which is a dubious attitude to me, even moreso in a video game.

Silly fleshlings. Nihiliibot enjoys StJ even though it sucks monkey coconuts.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
DB gets endurance-free damage from combos, so does FM from dot ticks, to a lesser extent so do Claws/DB/SS/DM from their damage buffs, etc..

I don't think it's fair for StJ to have such a high end cost on powers. OP may have no complaints with the set, but personally I find it weaker and weaker the more I play it - and it's difficult to discuss that as people tend to be clouded by the fun they're having with it.

Going on a tangent here, but that attitude baffles me. We consistently get people who say "oh, I play for fun, not for power", but as soon as you suggest the set they're having fun with might not be that powerful, they jump at your throat. It's like they associate power with worth, which is a dubious attitude to me, even moreso in a video game.

Silly fleshlings. Nihiliibot enjoys StJ even though it sucks monkey coconuts.
Yeah, dunno that I'd say StJ sucks monkey coconuts ( ), but I've had similar reservations. Don't get me wrong; I don't at all regret buying the set or spending time rolling/playing a StJ character. It's a fun set with an interesting mix of mechanical wrinkles.

Oddly enough, StJ seems, at least with respect to single-target damage, to reward you at both the extreme low end and the extreme high end; attack chains that require basically zero global recharge aren't significantly worse than attack chains that require ridiculous amounts of global +recharge -- but the more +damage (and procs) you stack, the more benefit StJ pulls from its -RES debuffs (also procs).

One of the results of that frankly ingenius (though perhaps unintentional) design is that it can leave the powergamer puzzled. For the first time in I-don't-know-how-long, I'm leveling a build without any kind of firm idea about what I want to do with it. That's ... vaguely unsettling, but I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

(For what it's worth, I'm leaning towards the notion that StJ goes best with Willpower, because Willpower gets zilch from recharge bonuses. You can have a more-or-less optimized StJ attack chain on a max-defensive WP character. And! You don't need glowing hands.)

All of that said, there are flaws, or if you prefer, shortcomings in the set. On a personal level, the biggest surprise has been how much StJ makes me appreciate Martial Arts more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

I'm partial to Shield myself. That is, I would if I was a hypothetical person that didn't scream bloody murder about Shield GFX whether it's relevant to the actual topic at hand. Shield doesn't need +recharge either, and AaO is especially juicy with StJ for the reasons you mentioned ; I also tend to enjoy stronger aggro aura even more on quick animating powersets, as on higher (+) reps with WP, enemies tend to do the "I'm afraid/I'm taunted" dance a bit too often for my liking with the taunt effect from the aura not being perma anymore. Shield Charge fills the gap in decent radius, brainless AoE output.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
Street Justice - Heavy Blow: 5s recharge, DS 1.16, 6.03 end
Kinetic Melee - Body Blow: 5s recharge, DS 1.16, 5.82 end
Actually, Body Blow is the odd one there. It should be 6.03, and a quick look at the other KM powers doesn't show a consistent discount. At that price it ought to be 1.12 DS and recharge in 4.75 seconds.

Quote:
Street Justice - Shin Breaker: 8s recharge, DS 1.64, 11.86 end
Broadsword - Hack: 8s recharge, DS 1.64, 8.53 end
That...that really looks to me like Shin Breaker started life as a 12 second attack and Synapse forgot to change the end cost when he changed the rest of it.

Looking over the rest of the set, Initial Strike, Rib Cracker, and Spinning Strike (at combo level 0) all follow The Rules. Sweeping Cross is getting an endurance and recharge discount, presumably on the same logic as Shadow Maul, though not as large since (I assume) it's so much faster.

Crushing Uppercut appears to be getting an endurance discount in exchange for extra recharge. The recharge looks like it was copied directly from Knockout Blow (in fact at combo level 2, aside from end cost and cast time, CU is an exact clone).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
One of the results of that frankly ingenius (though perhaps unintentional) design is that it can leave the powergamer puzzled. For the first time in I-don't-know-how-long, I'm leveling a build without any kind of firm idea about what I want to do with it. That's ... vaguely unsettling, but I'm not sure it's a bad thing.
I level almost everything with no firm idea about what I want to do with it. It's like I'm playing two fairly different games. In the first game, I wing it and just get a non-numerical feel for the combo. If I end up loving it by level 50, and it seems different enough from everything else I have in the second game, I'll run the numbers and put together a no-compromises top end build. The second game is running level 50 content on that build. And I don't really mean the iTrials, which I've decided I don't much care for. I just mean running around slaughtering things. Regular old missions, street sweeping, what have you.

I DO need to decide on a secondary before I can do Street Justice, though. I'm thinking Energy Aura, if only because I've never done one before. I might as well get a feel for two sets at once. I'd be tempted to go Brute in that case, though. More and more, it seems like you need a taunt aura to even partially suppress the horrible running. The horrible, horrible running. I don't like the fury mechanic because I don't like the game forcing me to keep running forward, but in practice, I almost always keep running forward anyway, and almost always have plenty of fury.


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I don't like the fury mechanic because I don't like the game forcing me to keep running forward, but in practice, I almost always keep running forward anyway, and almost always have plenty of fury.
Try not to look at it as being forced to run forward.

Look at it as a reward for constantly moving forward as fast as possible and fighting as many enemies at once as you are capable of.

It's funny, I have a vaguely similar problem with Scrappers. Sometimes I choose to not make a Scrapper because I feel penalized for not going Shield Defense. The same problem does not really exist with the same magnitude for Brutes and Tankers with regards to that set.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner
I'm thinking Energy Aura, if only because I've never done one before. I might as well get a feel for two sets at once. I'd be tempted to go Brute in that case, though. More and more, it seems like you need a taunt aura to even partially suppress the horrible running. The horrible, horrible running.
Scrapper Entropic Aura has a taunt component.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
Try not to look at it as being forced to run forward.

Look at it as a reward for constantly moving forward as fast as possible and fighting as many enemies at once as you are capable of.

It's funny, I have a vaguely similar problem with Scrappers. Sometimes I choose to not make a Scrapper because I feel penalized for not going Shield Defense. The same problem does not really exist with the same magnitude for Brutes and Tankers with regards to that set.
Nah. You're just badly penalized as a Brute for not going Fiery Aura, at an even more massive magnitude than Scrappers for not going Shield Defense.

Bonus penalty if you didn't go Super Strength.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonderslug View Post
That...that really looks to me like Shin Breaker started life as a 12 second attack and Synapse forgot to change the end cost when he changed the rest of it.
Well, if the end cost is exactly consistent with a 12s attack, then I agree it might just be an error. Interesting about Body Blow, too. I think I'll PM Synapse; if it isn't a whoopsie then hopefully I'll at least get an explanation for why it is WAI.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
DB gets endurance-free damage from combos, so does FM from dot ticks, to a lesser extent so do Claws/DB/SS/DM from their damage buffs, etc..

I don't think it's fair for StJ to have such a high end cost on powers. OP may have no complaints with the set, but personally I find it weaker and weaker the more I play it - and it's difficult to discuss that as people tend to be clouded by the fun they're having with it.
Yeah I know that, just looking for a 'possible' explanation because I don't expect consistency from the devs, lots of other things baffle me more than StJ having high end costs, like Defenders getting Blaster Ice Storm/Blizzard but Rain of Fire is AT-modded (while Corrs get Blaster RoF with Scourge), the Total Focus nerf while Seismic Smash still has a mag 4 hold with a 1.5ish sec cast time, KM having the only AoE that does 100% crit from Hide on Stalkers, well I could go on - although the scrapper sets are pretty well balanced.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reppu View Post
Nah. You're just badly penalized as a Brute for not going Fiery Aura, at an even more massive magnitude than Scrappers for not going Shield Defense.

Bonus penalty if you didn't go Super Strength.
No, you're not.

FA provides a high level of offense, but the level of mitigation is on the low end.

SD on the other hand, for a Scrapper, provides a better combination of offense and mitigation.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
Scrapper Entropic Aura has a taunt component.
Ah, good! Is Mids' wrong, or am I reading it wrong? Mids' seems to indicate that it provides taunt protection to self, not that it taunts others. It doesn't show it allowing taunt enhancements. Let's see what in game says... I don't see a taunt or taunt protection when looking at the in game detailed info. Uh... are we sure about this?


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Ah, good! Is Mids' wrong, or am I reading it wrong? Mids' seems to indicate that it provides taunt protection to self, not that it taunts others. It doesn't show it allowing taunt enhancements. Let's see what in game says... I don't see a taunt or taunt protection when looking at the in game detailed info. Uh... are we sure about this?
Hmm,

It is according to the patch notes, I also remember Synapse saying as such in the beta forums but with those forums closed I can't post it here.


From the patch notes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Issue 21: Convergence

Entropy Shield (Brute & Scrapper)

This power has been redesigned to be a taunt aura that will enhance the user's recharge for each target in melee up to 10 targets and will reduce the recharge of nearby foes.

  • Renamed to Entropic Aura
  • Added Taunt Aura
  • Now will boost the user's recharge rate by a moderate amount for the first target in close range with the user and a small amount for up to 10 targets.
  • All foes affected by this power will have their recharge reduced slightly.
It can be found about 70% of the way down:

i21 patch notes


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus View Post
Hmm,

It is according to the patch notes, I also remember Synapse saying as such in the beta forums but with those forums closed I can't post it here.


From the patch notes:


It can be found about 70% of the way down:

i21 patch notes
OK, my guess then is that both Mids' and the in game details are out of date. Scrapper it is! Sorry for the thread derail!


"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

Posted

I can confirm that the taunt component in EA does indeed work as intended. It's kind of weird, though. It makes things stick to you, but it doesn't make things pursue you if you brush past them while stealthing a mission, say. Not that I'm complaining about this, it's just odd. Handy though that EA's stealth power graphics suppress along with its stealth effects, much more informative than cloak of darkness. And cooler looking. Captain, a scrapper has decloaked off the starb-*gets roundhouse kicked*

SJ/EA is a great combination, though. Just got done with First Ward with only two slots added to secondary powers so far. Psi? Pfff, I guess that would be dangerous if anything lived for longer than five seconds. Going back to Paragon City is going to be akin to swimming over to the shallow end of the pool and wading around a bit of course.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
Yeah, dunno that I'd say StJ sucks monkey coconuts ( ), but I've had similar reservations. Don't get me wrong; I don't at all regret buying the set or spending time rolling/playing a StJ character. It's a fun set with an interesting mix of mechanical wrinkles.

Oddly enough, StJ seems, at least with respect to single-target damage, to reward you at both the extreme low end and the extreme high end; attack chains that require basically zero global recharge aren't significantly worse than attack chains that require ridiculous amounts of global +recharge -- but the more +damage (and procs) you stack, the more benefit StJ pulls from its -RES debuffs (also procs).

One of the results of that frankly ingenius (though perhaps unintentional) design is that it can leave the powergamer puzzled. For the first time in I-don't-know-how-long, I'm leveling a build without any kind of firm idea about what I want to do with it. That's ... vaguely unsettling, but I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

(For what it's worth, I'm leaning towards the notion that StJ goes best with Willpower, because Willpower gets zilch from recharge bonuses. You can have a more-or-less optimized StJ attack chain on a max-defensive WP character. And! You don't need glowing hands.)

All of that said, there are flaws, or if you prefer, shortcomings in the set. On a personal level, the biggest surprise has been how much StJ makes me appreciate Martial Arts more.
Incorrect StJ goes best with Shield, why?

Because the batman said so!


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