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Dumb question. If you don't see a need for big numbers over someone's head and you want to tank, why not just build a tank?
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Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
So I am totally fond of Kinetic Melee/Energy Aura, but I am not so fond of constantly hitting Power Siphon when it crit on a Scrapper - so then I was like, "hey, I want to tank anyway!" and so here I am, with my first Brute!
I know Brutes aren't big fans of KM, but I think its issues are diminished for tanking versus striking - long animation time is only perception rather than truth, I don't have a need to see big numbers over someone's head (so back-end loaded Siphon Power is fine), and a long range AoE is a great threat grabber.  So, that aside - general tips for tanking in this game? I am still new to the game (been here like seven weeks), and most people tend to just tell me to roll a tanker even though from what I hear, Brutes did just fine for all the years before you could get Tankers on Red-side. |
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1) The Gauntlet power for Tankers really takes the fun out of it, IMO - I remember in my first week of the game, in Gold-side, I literally had a group where the tanker said "afk falling asleep" and put me on follow and his damage aura kept all mobs off of the rest of the party with no issue until we had to change floors. I like having to change targets and such. Work at it. Gauntlet seems like 'auto threat win.'|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Dumb question. If you don't see a need for big numbers over someone's head and you want to tank, why not just build a tank?
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2) Energy Aura is Scrapper/Brute only. It fits the character thematically -very- well.
3) I feel like a Brute will make a better soloing piece (as I do that regularly) than a tanker, as it does have higher damage. While I don't need to see big orange numbers, doing the job quickly and efficiently is nice.
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Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
1) The Gauntlet power for Tankers really takes the fun out of it, IMO - I remember in my first week of the game, in Gold-side, I literally had a group where the tanker said "afk falling asleep" and put me on follow and his damage aura kept all mobs off of the rest of the party with no issue until we had to change floors. I like having to change targets and such. Work at it. Gauntlet seems like 'auto threat win.'
2) Energy Aura is Scrapper/Brute only. It fits the character thematically -very- well. 3) I feel like a Brute will make a better soloing piece (as I do that regularly) than a tanker, as it does have higher damage. While I don't need to see big orange numbers, doing the job quickly and efficiently is nice. |
Okay. Fair enough. Good answers.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Just for clarification:|
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
1) The Gauntlet power for Tankers really takes the fun out of it, IMO - I remember in my first week of the game, in Gold-side, I literally had a group where the tanker said "afk falling asleep" and put me on follow and his damage aura kept all mobs off of the rest of the party with no issue until we had to change floors. I like having to change targets and such. Work at it. Gauntlet seems like 'auto threat win.'
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Gauntlet is an AoE taunt effect (5 targets max) added to single target attacks.
Brutes get "Gauntlet-lite" in the sense that their single target attacks still taunt, but only the target of that attack.
This means that Tankers have no benefit over Brutes with aggro auras (ie: the afk Tanker), AoE attacks (ie: Foot Stomp), or attacking a single target (ie: an AV). The only benefit a Tanker has is using a single target attack with multiple enemies in range.;
Ironically, Brutes can generate more threat than Tankers can. If a Tanker doesn't use Taunt (the power), then Brutes will out threat them.
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Commenting on point 1.|
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
1) The Gauntlet power for Tankers really takes the fun out of it, IMO - I remember in my first week of the game, in Gold-side, I literally had a group where the tanker said "afk falling asleep" and put me on follow and his damage aura kept all mobs off of the rest of the party with no issue until we had to change floors. I like having to change targets and such. Work at it. Gauntlet seems like 'auto threat win.'
2) Energy Aura is Scrapper/Brute only. It fits the character thematically -very- well. 3) I feel like a Brute will make a better soloing piece (as I do that regularly) than a tanker, as it does have higher damage. While I don't need to see big orange numbers, doing the job quickly and efficiently is nice. |
Gauntlet is in no way "auto threat win".
I wish it was...so that I would not need to pick up Taunt just to be a good Tank.
That is all.
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Very good to know. I guess Point (1) speaks more to how bad our group's damage was or something then. I'd consistently heard that Tankers were unbeatable on threat 'til this thread.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Just for clarification:
Gauntlet is an AoE taunt effect (5 targets max) added to single target attacks. Brutes get "Gauntlet-lite" in the sense that their single target attacks still taunt, but only the target of that attack. This means that Tankers have no benefit over Brutes with aggro auras (ie: the afk Tanker), AoE attacks (ie: Foot Stomp), or attacking a single target (ie: an AV). The only benefit a Tanker has is using a single target attack with multiple enemies in range.; Ironically, Brutes can generate more threat than Tankers can. If a Tanker doesn't use Taunt (the power), then Brutes will out threat them. |
Regardless, Points 2 and 3 stand, so... um, any advice, things to know, etc?
Tanking is 20% Archetype, 10% build, 70% player in my experience.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
...That's great.
So... um.
Workin' on that 70% here. >_>
Aaaaaaanything?
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Line-of-Sight is your friend to help gather enemies. |
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
So, that aside - general tips for tanking in this game, as well as Brutes in particular?
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If you have a damage/taunt aura, then moving to different parts of the mob is a good idea (or just use Taunt).
Take/Use Taunt often.
On AVs, mix using Taunt with attacks. Also, try to position the AV with their back to the team if possible. This will help the squishies avoid any cone type attacks.
The above are general tips, but one of my personal favorite is to stay a little ahead of the team. What I mean is, be the first into the next group of enemies but be there a few seconds before your team arrives to make sure you have aggro control (by using taunt, punchvoke and/or taunt/damage auras).
To do this, just leave the last spawn of enemies when there is 1-2 left and the group is quickly taking care of them. It becomes almost a min-game in later levels when enemy spawns melt before your teams.
Anyways, hope that helps.
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This...is definitely...a GREAT piece of advice.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
The above are general tips, but one of my personal favorite is to stay a little ahead of the team. What I mean is, be the first into the next group of enemies but be there a few seconds before your team arrives to make sure you have aggro control (by using taunt, punchvoke and/or taunt/damage auras).
To do this, just leave the last spawn of enemies when there is 1-2 left and the group is quickly taking care of them. It becomes almost a min-game in later levels when enemy spawns melt before your teams. |
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It's not bad damage output that was bad, it's just that taunt effects are very strong. A very simple (and not entirely correct) exmplanation is that taunts are debuffs that amplify threat by 1,000 times per second of the duration on the target. So if you hit a target with a 10s taunt, the AI sees 1 point of damage as 10,000 damage (1 dmg * 1,000 * 10s).|
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
Very good to know. I guess Point (1) speaks more to how bad our group's damage was or something then. I'd consistently heard that Tankers were unbeatable on threat 'til this thread.
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Another wrinkle is that simply appying a taunt effect is like a 1 dmg attack, so if you have an aura pulsing a 10s taunt every 1s, it'd be generating 10,000 'threat' per second.
So really, the only time someone with taunt effects will lose aggro is against someone else who is applying taunt effects. This is where Tankers are at a disadvantage - Brutes apply taunts effects of the same length as Tankers, but they deal more damage.
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Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
Regardless, Points 2 and 3 stand, so... um, any advice, things to know, etc?
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This is very good advice and it brings me to my point. TRUST YOUR TEAMMATES. |
Originally Posted by Clouded
...One of my personal favorite is to stay a little ahead of the team. What I mean is, be the first into the next group of enemies but be there a few seconds before your team arrives to make sure you have aggro control (by using taunt, punchvoke and/or taunt/damage auras).
To do this, just leave the last spawn of enemies when there is 1-2 left and the group is quickly taking care of them. It becomes almost a min-game in later levels when enemy spawns melt before your teams. |
Some tanks (Note the lower case there. I'm referring to players who take on the tank role, not an AT in particular) get into a mindset of, "I protect the team because I'm the tough one. No one else can take hits like me." The problem with that kind of thinking is it can lead to really annoying micromanagement. Ask anyone and I guarantee they'll have a story about a tank who insisted on herding and went ballistic when the team broke formation to hang loose and have more fun.
As a tank, it is your job to protect your teammates. But it's also your teammates' job to cover their own posteriors. Don't get so caught up in making sure one of your squishies never gets so much as a dirty look from an enemy that you slow the team down or otherwise hinder their enjoyment.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
)
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Hrm. My build is extremely tight. Is Taunt a necessity? I'm not entirely sure what I could shed for it. Also, if Brutes do so much damage and have a threat multiplier, I would think an AV would be when they would need it least unless there are any fights (which I haven't noticed) which require taunt-tangoing between multiple tanks.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Line-of-Sight is your friend to help gather enemies.
If you have a damage/taunt aura, then moving to different parts of the mob is a good idea (or just use Taunt). Take/Use Taunt often. On AVs, mix using Taunt with attacks. Also, try to position the AV with their back to the team if possible. This will help the squishies avoid any cone type attacks. The above are general tips, but one of my personal favorite is to stay a little ahead of the team. What I mean is, be the first into the next group of enemies but be there a few seconds before your team arrives to make sure you have aggro control (by using taunt, punchvoke and/or taunt/damage auras). To do this, just leave the last spawn of enemies when there is 1-2 left and the group is quickly taking care of them. It becomes almost a min-game in later levels when enemy spawns melt before your teams. Anyways, hope that helps. |
Some of these things I'm already doing by habit, so I guess I'm in good shape.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
It's not bad damage output that was bad, it's just that taunt effects are very strong. A very simple (and not entirely correct) exmplanation is that taunts are debuffs that amplify threat by 1,000 times per second of the duration on the target. So if you hit a target with a 10s taunt, the AI sees 1 point of damage as 10,000 damage (1 dmg * 1,000 * 10s).
Another wrinkle is that simply appying a taunt effect is like a 1 dmg attack, so if you have an aura pulsing a 10s taunt every 1s, it'd be generating 10,000 'threat' per second. So really, the only time someone with taunt effects will lose aggro is against someone else who is applying taunt effects. This is where Tankers are at a disadvantage - Brutes apply taunts effects of the same length as Tankers, but they deal more damage. Sorry, I wasn't trying to talk you out of making a Brute, I was just making sure that you didn't get a false impression of how taunts worked in CoX. Taunt/threat is one aspect that is very poorly documented / understood by, dare I say, most people. |
And my general impression of this game is that, relative to my experiences with Asheron's Call and World of Warcraft, this game is very poorly documented and understood on the whole. @_@ Getting information is a consistent exercise in frustration - the people are so nice, and yet so rarely informative...
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
This is very good advice and it brings me to my point. TRUST YOUR TEAMMATES.
Some tanks (Note the lower case there. I'm referring to players who take on the tank role, not an AT in particular) get into a mindset of, "I protect the team because I'm the tough one. No one else can take hits like me." The problem with that kind of thinking is it can lead to really annoying micromanagement. Ask anyone and I guarantee they'll have a story about a tank who insisted on herding and went ballistic when the team broke formation to hang loose and have more fun. As a tank, it is your job to protect your teammates. But it's also your teammates' job to cover their own posteriors. Don't get so caught up in making sure one of your squishies never gets so much as a dirty look from an enemy that you slow the team down or otherwise hinder their enjoyment. |
* This doesn't mean I don't get annoyed if someone's being TOO silly.
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You're talking to the wrong people. Thing is, by and large, CoX isn't as focused on the numbers as games like WoW. You can play through every single piece of content without ever having to care about how the formulas are calculated or how that Axe of Face Choppery's 0.001% damage mod effects your overall DPS. The average player doesn't know exactly how the mechanics work because they don't need to know.|
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
And my general impression of this game is that, relative to my experiences with Asheron's Call and World of Warcraft, this game is very poorly documented and understood on the whole. @_@ Getting information is a consistent exercise in frustration - the people are so nice, and yet so rarely informative...
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But if you're looking for more empirical stuff check out ParagonWiki and City of Data. They should give you all the numbers you can handle.
Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
) All this is my own opinion and doesn't represent the gospel or anything. When I say "tank" I mean the person who is actively trying to keep the enemy's attention, not the Tanker archetype. I have learned that there are a great number of ATs that can tank.
- Good tanks have high situational awareness. They watch other players' health bars and they keep an eye out for unexpected visitors to an established fracas.
- Good tanks like being first in, but not necessarily last out. It's better to be working up some aggro on the next spawn than to hang around beating on that last MOG'd Paragon Protector.
- Along the same lines, good tanks don't leave their team in the lurch. If the current brawl is still dangerous, hang around until the team has it in hand.
- Good tanks leave their ego at home. So that scrapper charged ahead to the next spawn while the current one is still hale and hearty? Let her have it, she will probably be fine and if she dies, she won't blame you. The plants/fire dom is tearing up spawns all on his own? Great, leaves you able to wrangle the stuff that the rest of the team is working on.
- Good tanks don't need all the aggro. They just need the aggro that the rest of the team can't handle.
- Good tanks use the all tools they have. As an Energy Aura brute, you have a good taunt aura and your attacks have Poke-Voke, so spread the love and hit the baddies you want on you. Don't just beat on the toughest target to the exclusion of the others. Taunt is a fine tool and very useful, but it's certainly not necessary.
- Good tanks know they can't save everyone from their own stupidity. Sometimes letting one idiot die to keep the rest of the gang safe is the best option.
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This is because CoH doesn't need WoW-level number management and documentation. In WoW, a single player sneezing during a raid encounter WILL wipe the raid 100% of the time, no exceptions, no excuses, no workarounds, do not pass go or collect 200 dollars. Here, if a player sneezes they probably just defeated a Lieutenant. CoH is so much more laid back than any game I've played. |
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
And my general impression of this game is that, relative to my experiences with Asheron's Call and World of Warcraft, this game is very poorly documented and understood on the whole. @_@ Getting information is a consistent exercise in frustration - the people are so nice, and yet so rarely informative...
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Hell, even tanking is a smooth ride compared to the SUNDERSUNDERSUNDERSUNDERSHIELDSLAMDEVASTATEDEVASTA TETAUNTREVENGEPARRYBLOCKSHIELDSLAMBLOODRAGESHIELDS LAMTAUNTSUNDERSUNDERSUNDER that was my WoW tanking career.
I hop into a spawn, punch stuff, taunt the occasional stray, and then when everything's almost toast I hop out and piss off the next group of enemies.
Don't treat this game like other MMO's-- you'll end up burning yourself out on what is essentially nothing.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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In other words, screw the Blaster. They're just Vengeance/Fallout bait anyway |
Originally Posted by Emberly
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Wanna play a Peacebringer? Don't believe the hype. Check out my guide and get the real truth:
PEACEBRINGERS SUCK!!! (Now fully up to date for i21+
)
I understand the game is more relaxed (which I enjoy!), but I also like to succeed well at exotic roleplay concepts, and getting numbers so I know how feasible things are is important to me. I was never a raider in other games, just an explorer/PvPer/small-grouper.
ParagonWiki is actually frustratingly vague and incomplete for me - and not just on numbers, but I can't plunk in an enemy group and get a well-formatted, comprehensive resource on everything related to them for purposes of RP. It's still a good resource, just a massive change in what I'm used to.
Back to the topic at hand:
@Emberly: MOG'd?
Rest is understood and appreciated.
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Moment of Glory
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Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
Back to the topic at hand:
@Emberly: MOG'd? Rest is understood and appreciated. |
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A most excellent summation.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
It's not bad damage output that was bad, it's just that taunt effects are very strong. A very simple (and not entirely correct) exmplanation is that taunts are debuffs that amplify threat by 1,000 times per second of the duration on the target. So if you hit a target with a 10s taunt, the AI sees 1 point of damage as 10,000 damage (1 dmg * 1,000 * 10s).
Another wrinkle is that simply appying a taunt effect is like a 1 dmg attack, so if you have an aura pulsing a 10s taunt every 1s, it'd be generating 10,000 'threat' per second. Taunt/threat is one aspect that is very poorly documented / understood by, dare I say, most people. |
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
In other words, screw the Blaster. They're just Vengeance/Fallout bait anyway
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*Caveat: I don't play many blasters, I'm just that suicidal.
I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Taunt is not a necessity for Tanks or Brutes, but you asked about 'tanking.' To be great at tanking, you will want Taunt (my opinion of course).|
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
Hrm. My build is extremely tight. Is Taunt a necessity? I'm not entirely sure what I could shed for it. Also, if Brutes do so much damage and have a threat multiplier, I would think an AV would be when they would need it least unless there are any fights (which I haven't noticed) which require taunt-tangoing between multiple tanks.
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I say to Taunt AVs because I've seen AV aggro taken from my Brutes/Tanks before when I only attack (especially the Trials). I'll have a strong DPS chain going and Siege will turn away from me, then I hit Taunt...BAM right back on me with a Warning. If you are 'tanking' then your first priority is aggro managment, not damage. If you are not the main tank or an off tank, then damage is your priority.
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I didn't see this pointed out in the thread yet, figured I'd jump in. Dechs Kaison has a nice "tanking" guide on his blog.|
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
...That's great.
So... um. Workin' on that 70% here. >_> Aaaaaaanything? |
http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...f-tanking.html
Certainly worth a read.
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Are you talking about Death from Below (lowbie "Sewer Trial") or the Abandoned Sewer Trial (lvl38-40 "Sewer Trial")?|
Originally Posted by Lady Sunflash
In the sewers trial, I was consistently getting whooped by the party tanker on threat no matter how I tried. What happened there?
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At any rate, could you provide any more detail about the situation? Which sets was the Tanker? Was he getting into spawns first? How long did spawns die? Etc. The threat explanation I gave you was very incomplete and watered down; so there could be factors at work that it doesn't explain.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
This is because CoH doesn't need WoW-level number management and documentation. In WoW, a single player sneezing during a raid encounter WILL wipe the raid 100% of the time, no exceptions, no excuses, no workarounds, do not pass go or collect 200 dollars. Here, if a player sneezes they probably just defeated a Lieutenant. CoH is so much more laid back than any game I've played.
Hell, even tanking is a smooth ride compared to the SUNDERSUNDERSUNDERSUNDERSHIELDSLAMDEVASTATEDEVASTA TETAUNTREVENGEPARRYBLOCKSHIELDSLAMBLOODRAGESHIELDS LAMTAUNTSUNDERSUNDERSUNDER that was my WoW tanking career. I hop into a spawn, punch stuff, taunt the occasional stray, and then when everything's almost toast I hop out and piss off the next group of enemies. Don't treat this game like other MMO's-- you'll end up burning yourself out on what is essentially nothing. |
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Originally Posted by Errant
Wow. I was one of those. I am now more enlightened. Damn. *blinks a few times* Thanks, Sarrate. (will now be turning SS OFF to raise Threat level, and see what else he can strip from tanking toons for aggro!)
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Yes, turning off Super Speed (and any buff with -threat level) will improve threat generation. A slightly more expanded threat formula (but still extremely dumbed down):
Threat = Damage * TauntDurationRemaining * ThreatLevel
ThreatLevel varies from AT to AT, but Brutes/Tankers start at 4, Scrapper 3, etc.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
Taunt is not a necessity for Tanks or Brutes, but you asked about 'tanking.' To be great at tanking, you will want Taunt (my opinion of course).
I say to Taunt AVs because I've seen AV aggro taken from my Brutes/Tanks before when I only attack (especially the Trials). I'll have a strong DPS chain going and Siege will turn away from me, then I hit Taunt...BAM right back on me with a Warning. If you are 'tanking' then your first priority is aggro managment, not damage. If you are not the main tank or an off tank, then damage is your priority. |
Really, there are 4 different tiers of threat generation (also simplified)
1) Playing a character with no taunt effects.
2) Playing a character with taunt effects in the 13.5s range (Gauntlet, Gauntlet-lite, most aggro auras)
3) Playing a character with the Taunt power (~41s).
4) Playing a character with the Taunt power, slotted (~80s).
Someone with no taunt effects won't compete with someone who has them. Someone with just taunt effects won't compete with someone with a well slotted taunt. When two characters are on the same tier, then many times, the difference is damage output. (Debuffs also play a factor, which is why debuff ATs tend to draw a lot of attention to themselves.)
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Not long enough ago.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
Not sure when the last time you played WoW was, but threat has become less and less of an issue as time has gone on.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
So I am totally fond of Kinetic Melee/Energy Aura, but I am not so fond of constantly hitting Power Siphon when it crit on a Scrapper - so then I was like, "hey, I want to tank anyway!" and so here I am, with my first Brute!
I know Brutes aren't big fans of KM, but I think its issues are diminished for tanking versus striking - long animation time is only perception rather than truth, I don't have a need to see big numbers over someone's head (so back-end loaded Siphon Power is fine), and a long range AoE with a taunt component is a great threat grabber.
So, that aside - general tips for tanking in this game, as well as Brutes in particular? I am still new to the game (been here like seven weeks), and most people tend to just tell me to roll a tanker even though from what I hear, Brutes did just fine for all the years before you could get Tankers on Red-side.