Why is the Malta Group out in the open?
RPG worlds do not and can not run on the same principles as commercial comic books -- especially when said principles don't work all that well for the comic books, for me.
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Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
You can cure the Lost at level 10, but the mission that formally drops the reveal doesn't hit until the 25-30 bracket.
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Crey isn't formally outed as corrupt until 45-50 unless you run tips in which case you know at level 20. (Villains get it at level 15 through regular missions.) |
The Praetorian invasion is all over the place. So is "the coming storm". The 5th/Council nonsense is a Gordian Knot. And on, and on.... |
If content set B is added after content set A in real time, then content set B must take place after content set A in game time as well. In most cases this means A must be removed to make way for B, and there is nothing wrong with that. Dynamic worlds require change, not mere agglutinization. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
So, does this mean we can finally toss out the ridiculous excuse for why the Council do NOTHING during the Kahn Task Force and Barracuda Strike Force?
I suppose I wouldn't be so bothered if the writing did SOMETHING to still seem "in character."
The Malta Group are supposed to be secretive, hidden and unknown. Crimson, Indigo, Viridian and Arbiter Daos are really supposed to be the only people who have any kind of detailed information on the groups (maybe Shadow Spider, too, considering she's a former Knife of Artemis and Viridian's partner/associate, though her focus is primarily against Indigo and Viridan, and what the KoA know about the Malta Group is never really all that clear; in-story, the Knives are just a mercenary group that the Malta Group hires on a regular basis, which doesn't leave much room for the two groups to get personal). Everybody else who refers to the Malta Group should be talking about them in the same way most other people talk about conspiracy theories, without even knowing what the group is called.
It bothers me when people who never were "in the know" are suddenly showing up and telling you that "Malta" (another irritating part is that they don't even call them "The Malta Group") is involved. "Malta" is what the PLAYERS call the group.
It boils down to this... There's player/author knowledge and there's character knowledge. Just because we as players know who the Malta Group is doesn't mean our characters do. Saying that "Malta" has been seen in the area helps the players perfectly fine. The character, however, it's a bit jarring unless you've had some experience dealing with the Malta Group. Considering the fact that it comes up in a mid-20s arc, chances are your character hasn't had much experience with them.
And for you veterans out there going "Well, what if my character's a former Malta Gunslinger?" I have this to ask you: What if you're a first-time player, and have no idea who the Malta Group are? If you're just told "Malta" is in the area, what does that tell a first-time player?
Well, first off, it gives a lot of bad impressions as to the writing right off the bat if we're dealing with anybody who would run a quick Google search for "Malta." What do they get? Well, they get websites pointing them in the direction of the island nation, prompting the new player to wonder why they would be sending a technologically advanced military force to Paragon City.
And now the poor player is off the rails.
A better method of portraying the Malta Group in that arc would be to act like NOBODY knows who the Hell they are. Leave the player with a "What was that? Where the Hell did that come from?" vibe. Leave the contact wondering, too, instead of going "...I'd hate to see what Malta would have done with that technology..." have him shocked and surprised (though still relieved at your success) by saying what the new player is thinking "What was that thing?"
Now, I know it's been a long time since the Malta Group was introduced to the game. Lots of players have dealt with them. With the way the story is set up, though, you're still only looking at a core group with a maximum of eight people really knowing what's going on (unless, of course, you want to tell me that the Malta Group tries Operation: World Wide Red against EVERY SINGLE HERO who shows up at Crimson's doorstep). Convincing everybody else of what they know... Well... Then they wind up sounding like spandex-clad conspiracy theory nutjobs, don't they?
My original point is that the Malta Group suddenly being known by everybody is, well, lazy writing. They haven't really had a "Big Reveal." It's not like Countess Crey getting arrested and put on trial (which is a situation that's treated with the public still dubious about her guilt). It's not like the Rikti being revealed to be mutated humans. Seriously... Look at the Lost. LOOK WHAT THEY USE FOR WEAPONS! And the Pariahs? Look closely under those hoods... And Nemesis... Yeesh... Where doesn't the guy show up?
There is a build-up to these things, and the Malta Group becoming a publicly understood menace overnight was not properly done. They hardly ever showed up outside their own operations (except for some really nifty moments in some Crey arcs where they're hired, as mercenaries, to hunt You and Your Companions down in between missions). Their story is relegated to background fluff (making Slinger, Director 11 and Gyrfalcon appear out of NOWHERE; I wouldn't mind the characters if they showed up and did more to make a presence for themselves, but I know Moment and Jack Firenze better than them, making their sudden appearances in anything into head scratcher moments), with no explanation as to who or what is going on in their lives EXCEPT when they show up, and then the information is just DUMPED on the player, and that's if we get any explanation at all. Without the explanation, their presence is left as just as much a head scratcher. Why would Reichsman capture Gyrfalcon? Seriously. Who is that guy? Why would Director 11 show up, in person, to try to fight the heroes after they just got done stopping the Praetorian invasion in Warburg? The guy doesn't even make the pretense of acting like he's fighting Praetorians. Why doesn't an egomaniac like Slinger show up more often!? He's funny! If he started featuring in more arcs, I would start to understand why the public was getting an understanding of the Malta Group: low profile doesn't usually factor in a mad scientist's vocabulary once they've got their robotic monstrosities constructed.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
It can't. It isn't doing it now, precisely because it can't.
You can cure the Lost at level 10, but the mission that formally drops the reveal doesn't hit until the 25-30 bracket. Crey isn't formally outed as corrupt until 45-50 unless you run tips in which case you know at level 20. (Villains get it at level 15 through regular missions.) The Praetorian invasion is all over the place. So is "the coming storm". The 5th/Council nonsense is a Gordian Knot. And on, and on.... If content set B is added after content set A in real time, then content set B must take place after content set A in game time as well. In most cases this means A must be removed to make way for B, and there is nothing wrong with that. Dynamic worlds require change, not mere agglutinization. |
It looks like you are going to get your wish: "Who Will Die?" is going to be the stake and the garlic. Whoever dies is not going to die in the 'level era' of post-50 content, but apparently retroactively throughout the game. Therefore, content that they took place in, they will suddenly never have been in, because that content will now have taken place after they died...
But that just feels inconsistent and bad to me. YMMV.
At such a point, I personally would rather rename the game City of Quantum Leap, start everyone off in Ouroboros, and have the entire game be about us leaping into different time periods to solve various problems. Just replace all of the 'mission entrance' blurbs with the date and time that the mission was written.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
And for you veterans out there going "Well, what if my character's a former Malta Gunslinger?"
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Now, I know it's been a long time since the Malta Group was introduced to the game. Lots of players have dealt with them. With the way the story is set up, though, you're still only looking at a core group with a maximum of eight people really knowing what's going on (unless, of course, you want to tell me that the Malta Group tries Operation: World Wide Red against EVERY SINGLE HERO who shows up at Crimson's doorstep). Convincing everybody else of what they know... Well... Then they wind up sounding like spandex-clad conspiracy theory nutjobs, don't they? |
Why would Reichsman capture Gyrfalcon? Seriously. Who is that guy? |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
A better method of portraying the Malta Group in that arc would be to act like NOBODY knows who the Hell they are. Leave the player with a "What was that? Where the Hell did that come from?" vibe. Leave the contact wondering, too, instead of going "...I'd hate to see what Malta would have done with that technology..." have him shocked and surprised (though still relieved at your success) by saying what the new player is thinking "What was that thing?"
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You can involve the Malta Group in such a way that anyone who's already aware of them can guess what's going on, but that a player who's never seen them will have no idea. That's how you craft a good mystery.
For instance, the first time I ever saw a Nemesis soldier in my life was at the end of the second Sky Raider mission. All of a sudden, I round a corner and there's this red-con lieutenant who looks like nothing I've ever seen, he's called "Strange Soldier" and he's listed as... "Nemesis?" What's a Nemesis? Like... An enemy? So I check his bio and it talks about how these guys can use their long rifles both as rifles and as spears and I'm thinking COOL! I wonder who he is. Then, two levels later, I'm sent to Founders' Falls and I see these guys running about and I think "Oh! Oh, so that's who that guy was! He's one of THESE! Um... Who are these guys? Well, no-one really tells me, people just sort of acknowledge they exist. I mean, I remember my contact talked about "THE Nemesis, the archvillain who almost took over the United States in the 50s," but that's all ancient history to me. Are these his soldiers? Then 5 levels later, Arton Sampson sends me on a long chain of events to figure just that out - who IS this Nemesis all of those soldiers are talking about? Is this actually the same historical figure I heard about? That would be... Bad! And it is! And it's a good mystery.
That's how I'd love to see Malta introduced. Sprinkle them througout the lower-level missions, like a spawn shows up with a gunslinger in it, but as soon as you approach the Gunslinger bolts and you can't attack him and he has no description. Do that a few times, give no explanation so that when the player finally learns who Malta are, they can think back and go "Oh, so THAT'S what this was all about!"
Malta are supposed to be a mystery. They need to be treated like one. You can't have Roy Cooling just casually go "Oh, I can talk about Malta all day, but we don't have the time."
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So, I just found another bit that probably fits into this thread. A line by Montague Costanella.
"Percy Winkley is missing... again."
Now this is something that folks may already know, but when I first saw it, I thought it was another of those fourth wall referential moments, about how every new Hero would be running the arc (at least if they want in Cimerorra).
Well, I just started a contact that I hadn't run it apparently years, Harvey Maylor. One of the first elements of his arc? Rescuing Percy Winkly from Carnies.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
If content set B is added after content set A in real time, then content set B must take place after content set A in game time as well. In most cases this means A must be removed to make way for B, and there is nothing wrong with that. Dynamic worlds require change, not mere agglutinization.
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But this is hard, and not as much fun (apparently) as half-implementing and then abandoning new shinies, so it almost certainly won't get done.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
heh, One of the things that bothers me about Venture's attitude here, is that he knows the game could be (re-)written to follow a level = story progression editorial mandate because he is one of the people with enough understanding of canon to do it.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
heh, One of the things that bothers me about Venture's attitude here, is that he knows the game could be (re-)written to follow a level = story progression editorial mandate because he is one of the people with enough understanding of canon to do it.
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And the "Lore Bible"? I think they lost it under the couch about a year ago and nobody's even looking for it anymore...
![Frown](images/smilies/frown.gif)
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
The Devs really seem to be ultrageeks who wouldn't understand what a focus group was even for.
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But that brings up a good point. With Manticore the Dev gone, who is driving the story bus right now? Positron? War Witch? Black Pebble?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
One of the things that bothers me about Venture's attitude here, is that he knows the game could be (re-)written to follow a level = story progression editorial mandate because he is one of the people with enough understanding of canon to do it. |
If story progression requires level progression, then eventually an intended story addition will run into either the top end of the desired faction or factions' level range or the level cap itself. E.g. we have the current Rikti War storyline, if we want to advance that so that, say, Vanguard pushes through the portal and takes the fight to the Rikti homeworld we can't do it because there is nowhere for it to go. The current storyline takes place at the level cap so we've got no level progression left to use. Either the level cap has to go up to make room -- which is wagging the dog and causes more problems than it solves -- or we just cram it in there and to hell with whether or not it makes sense or how badly it breaks the existing material. Which is what the devs have been doing, bringing us to:
But that just feels inconsistent and bad to me. YMMV. |
I'll get to the rest later.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
And I love them for that; seriously, don't ever change. If these people did things according to what is likely to be popular, we really would be playing "WoW in spandex" right now, and I'd rather have what we have.
But that brings up a good point. With Manticore the Dev gone, who is driving the story bus right now? Positron? War Witch? Black Pebble? |
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
No I can't, and neither can anyone else.
If story progression requires level progression, then eventually an intended story addition will run into either the top end of the desired faction or factions' level range or the level cap itself. E.g. we have the current Rikti War storyline, if we want to advance that so that, say, Vanguard pushes through the portal and takes the fight to the Rikti homeworld we can't do it because there is nowhere for it to go. The current storyline takes place at the level cap so we've got no level progression left to use. Either the level cap has to go up to make room -- which is wagging the dog and causes more problems than it solves -- or we just cram it in there and to hell with whether or not it makes sense or how badly it breaks the existing material. Which is what the devs have been doing, bringing us to: |
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
If story progression requires level progression, then eventually an intended story addition will run into either the top end of the desired faction or factions' level range or the level cap itself. E.g. we have the current Rikti War storyline, if we want to advance that so that, say, Vanguard pushes through the portal and takes the fight to the Rikti homeworld we can't do it because there is nowhere for it to go. The current storyline takes place at the level cap so we've got no level progression left to use. Either the level cap has to go up to make room -- which is wagging the dog and causes more problems than it solves -- or we just cram it in there and to hell with whether or not it makes sense or how badly it breaks the existing material. |
That way, you don't have characters who have never learned anything about the Rikti suddemly being thrust into that storyline with no background for it (teaming with players who have being an ignored aspect). You could even leverage it to include story elements such as running gags or returning nemeses that would only mean something to someone who had played through the prerequisite story.
Level progression = story progression could work the other way, too. Want to foreshadow the Rulu-shin? Just write a new story arc involving them at a lower level, and voila! Retroactive foreshadowing!
Cheap? Maybe, but done consistently, it would work.
I'd love to someday see a feature where I could review a character's history and follow their progression through the story, like reviewing back issues of a comic book (you can do this a little tiny bit with Clues and Ouroboros, sorta kinda). That can't be done if my previous adventures are bouncing all over the timeline without benefit of Ouroboros.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The Malta Group are supposed to be secretive, hidden and unknown. Crimson, Indigo, Viridian and Arbiter Daos are really supposed to be the only people who have any kind of detailed information on the groups (maybe Shadow Spider, too, considering she's a former Knife of Artemis and Viridian's partner/associate, though her focus is primarily against Indigo and Viridan, and what the KoA know about the Malta Group is never really all that clear; in-story, the Knives are just a mercenary group that the Malta Group hires on a regular basis, which doesn't leave much room for the two groups to get personal). Everybody else who refers to the Malta Group should be talking about them in the same way most other people talk about conspiracy theories, without even knowing what the group is called.
It bothers me when people who never were "in the know" are suddenly showing up and telling you that "Malta" (another irritating part is that they don't even call them "The Malta Group") is involved. "Malta" is what the PLAYERS call the group. |
It boils down to this... There's player/author knowledge and there's character knowledge. Just because we as players know who the Malta Group is doesn't mean our characters do. Saying that "Malta" has been seen in the area helps the players perfectly fine. The character, however, it's a bit jarring unless you've had some experience dealing with the Malta Group. Considering the fact that it comes up in a mid-20s arc, chances are your character hasn't had much experience with them.
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Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
With all the pointless raiding and loot-grind that's been added, the game is literally becoming "WoW in spandex" right before your very eyes. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that.
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The thing is, I don't mind content being added to the game that allows a path of progression I am personally not into. Let it exist for those who want it, that's fine.
I don't PvP often, but I would love to see the PvP improved in ways that brought hardcore PvPer's to the game in droves, so long as it did not negatively impact the PvE.
I don't base build much, but I desperately want Base functionality fixed and developed for those who love that aspect of the game.
I just don't want the parts of the game I prefer (mission/story/lore/history/customization/alting/soloing/easy teaming/casual play, etc) to be abandoned, so here I am, on the forums championing them.
Heck, I'd love them to launch an expanshalone for the asian market if they could get it to work, even if I could never actually play it. More money for them = more fun for me.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
My immediate thought is: make the subsequent story material locked behind a badge, then give a badge for completing the prerequisite story.
That way, you don't have characters who have never learned anything about the Rikti suddemly being thrust into that storyline with no background for it (teaming with players who have being an ignored aspect). You could even leverage it to include story elements such as running gags or returning nemeses that would only mean something to someone who had played through the prerequisite story. Level progression = story progression could work the other way, too. Want to foreshadow the Rulu-shin? Just write a new story arc involving them at a lower level, and voila! Retroactive foreshadowing! Cheap? Maybe, but done consistently, it would work. I'd love to someday see a feature where I could review a character's history and follow their progression through the story, like reviewing back issues of a comic book (you can do this a little tiny bit with Clues and Ouroboros, sorta kinda). That can't be done if my previous adventures are bouncing all over the timeline without benefit of Ouroboros. |
The problem with that notion is that its impossible to maintain this veneer in a multiplayer game where different players can be essentially in different points in the timeline but still team together. Perfect temporal consistency is something you can really only have in either a single player game, or an MMO with no backtracking content. And even that second possibility requires an enormous development staff because the only way to revise older content is to simultaneously revise all dependencies every time it happens, which is an enormous undertaking.
You're actually supposed to be able to compromise on this in an MMO. Timeline consistency can be at best locally consistent, but not globally consistent. If you can't compromise on this type of thing, you need to play MMOs that do not have actual story arcs in them that ever change. the devs could do a much better job with local consistency, but nothing they do, given the current structure of the PvE game, will allow them perfect global consistency. Its not just impractical, its basically logically impossible.
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Actually, the game COULD be rewritten for plot revelation to be relevant to character level range. In fact, even way back when "The Second Rikti War" happened, the revelation that Rikti = Human was still occurring in a range where you learn it anyway (Doctor Sheridan's arc). It seems that immediately after that, things took a really unusual downward turn in regards to treating the overall plot with that respect.
Perhaps that's why players were so aggravated by Montague Castenella's arc. It's a glaring highlight of the issue, and it seems the situation has only gotten worse since.
Anyway, it would be perfectly plausible for content to be revealed as the character goes higher in level. Content featuring the same groups as elsewhere in the level range should be used to extrapolate on the intricacies and complexities of the group. Two Sky Raiders arcs in the 25-30 range? Make them focused on different things, maybe feature plots showing the different aspects of the group.
However, it's pretty hard to show intricacy by having the Sky Raiders drop in to carpet bomb the Skulls or Clockwork.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
You're actually supposed to be able to compromise on this in an MMO. Timeline consistency can be at best locally consistent, but not globally consistent. If you can't compromise on this type of thing, you need to play MMOs that do not have actual story arcs in them that ever change. the devs could do a much better job with local consistency, but nothing they do, given the current structure of the PvE game, will allow them perfect global consistency. Its not just impractical, its basically logically impossible.
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But I don't think anyone is asking for perfection here, just improvement; possibly retconned improvement.
I definitely want to see a dynamic storyline that changes. Heck, I want them to put the players in the drivers' seat of such changes.
I'd love to see some sort of 'indirect pvp' where villains are running an arc, collecting badges in order to get x to happen, while heroes are running the other side of the arc, collecting badges to prevent x or cause y to happen. Or something.
I just have this delusion that such things could be inserted into the storyline somewhere, complete with foreshadowing (at lower levels) and repurcussions (at higher levels).
I understand that spoilers will be spoilers, and that teaming breaks the storyline consistency, and I am perfectly okay with that gameplay compromise and ignoring it for purposes of mission writing.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"