Quote:
I am terrible with math but can you calculate MA's dps if Cobra/Crane have 1.33 activation time, Axe has 1.36? (not sure if they would use this kind of number) and Eagle has 2.33s.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Stalkers don't get it. Instead, they get a version that has a higher damage scale.
This gives it the same DPA as Focus once you account for Arcanatime - still less than Storm Kick, Crippling Axe Kick, Cobra Strike, and Crane Kick in Martial Arts, but a very respectable number on its own. |
I really find MA a bit too slow for its ST dps. They should trim it down a bit.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Yep, numbers here are base, without enhancements.
|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Are you guys using a different notation, or are stalker DPS just that pathetic.
Comparing to the common figures given on the scrapper forums, these numbers suck. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
I did.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
AS without stealth is inferior DPA, but with Assassination it's great. Caltrops, Water Spout, and Lightning Rod have pretty high DPA as well(though Caltrops and Water Spout take a long time to apply it).
I suggest you read Microcosm's guide about it. |
Looking at EleM numbers
CB: 46.71 damage for 0.83 activation = 56.28 DPA (generally good attacks go from 65 to 90)
AS: 139.03 (base) + 250.25 (AS) for 3 seconds = 129,76
Caltrops have 116.94
LR has 69.13
Water Spout has 231.94 (seriously? wtf)
So yeah its damn worth it. I'm wondering if the trick doesnt make Elec the best ST dps...
Quote:
Nightchill is using base (unslotted) numbers, and it looks like without crits; on top of that, the numbers seem to be a little off, making the dps lower than it really is.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Are you guys using a different notation, or are stalker DPS just that pathetic.
Comparing to the common figures given on the scrapper forums, these numbers suck. |
Example: base dps of that Dark Melee chain without Build Up, counting 10% crit rate (which is base) should be 66.86. If you apply the tohit clamp, that becomes 63.52. But even if I took out the 10% crit that would be 57.74.
Unless, of course, my mids numbers are off.
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Quote:
Last I checked, it was either top or very nearly top.
|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
So yeah its damn worth it. I'm wondering if the trick doesnt make Elec the best ST dps...
|
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I used on original thread level ONE DPA unenhenced outcrit numbers. I'm not comparing with scrapper but only Stalkers sets.
Edit, since you'r around how does
Code:
looks like to you? (watch that Hide isnt activated since part of the def goes away when uncovered)
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1396;687;1374;HEX;| |78DA65934B4F135114C7EF6D87470B850202E5552815282D0C548C6E342C040DDA4| |215E342813A29977660326DDAD1C8CEB5F189897E01458D0B57266EFD1E7C051F7B| |C57AE69C536A6C93E637F77FCFE33FE7DE493F586A17E2E1A290814B9651A964D71| |DC3DA5365FF4D952BD845AB98DF6F4D9B154795C7AEB40821C2BC9F4D2B4B297DD9| |5239A76CE60C8B84506D7B49ED28BBA2F455D3DE359DCABDAE15BBA0CACA76F4DA8| |33F532C5AFA7A49A9ED003E5E36F305C7B4F3EDB84A29A3048BCEDA625B952B05B3| |145E2E9939BDD625A5EE9B865330EC6CDA703DEE87C0E204FC1FF904FFAA4DE2024| |0F30ACF7FD4625E219242DB132E9A131E17D7EA8952F44A579A3B86D588780C3B92| |4B4A2ED1CC6CAD516049FF45ACE55FC4550A12BD9859F578A964FB798AAF711C46D| |B4421B229817E3A0869486EE1E4164AEEE0A420F30984F8D8986F0B302582B711DD| |77081B88539B842C621552DA38ABED0BF6EAFB4C5840F7A1338443E9BEFD20D9898| |2D1006589C01106AC41A14EF6DE4951B384A7B0D3C52DBADE61F0E02162F82DE10D| |22FC0131F51EF10CB27AB8450F15CA80D44B92D69BC12184D7106329429AB08A906| |0B29F2BF40F628517506180AD0CD02185FF50D72A62EE17E13722798C780E59439C| |3544D7647A1711DF41CCE409057A6D13E185F6233C9091104E2FD28F38807AA35C6| |F94FA46C84C84DA47A97D94DA47C9E10DC81AE7ACF1BB289D36081B844DC4E41621| |8BD0C0C5045F9C09BA38937C61A6987D1012A31011A390237093E04927E83ACC9C4| |387B35F3DEEB9243FA198FC88B80ED6749EB44E67D50D45E7B9E87C04A521EDE49B| |AA0ED79FDD65B52AE20DCA7C83926C50161A94B30D4AAA41C96827DFB090A8F882C| |23D01F4F6CD0FBB6C5DCEA2F51F7549CA5B38A2F855E97E3FDFFF0D8E61F0CFBAE4| |95AFF114A60F082F11F15788BF2BA6E272| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote:
Ok that is much better. I missed that note at the start.
|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Yep, numbers here are base, without enhancements.
|
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Using 66.86 number with 95% damage enhancement is about 130 dps. Is this considered high among Brute/Scrapper/SoA or? |
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Nightchill is using base (unslotted) numbers, and it looks like without crits; on top of that, the numbers seem to be a little off, making the dps lower than it really is.
Example: base dps of that Dark Melee chain without Build Up, counting 10% crit rate (which is base) should be 66.86. If you apply the tohit clamp, that becomes 63.52. But even if I took out the 10% crit that would be 57.74. Unless, of course, my mids numbers are off. |
I remember Night Widow can go over 200dps?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Its complicated to compare ATs in term for pure DPS. Buffless Stalker should be close to Widows since they have pretty much the same DPA chains and the same damage scale. Teamwork Assault may push them abit futher but you have to remember Starlkers are +400% damage cap whereas Widows are 300.
|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Using 66.86 number with 95% damage enhancement is about 130 dps. Is this considered high among Brute/Scrapper/SoA or?
I remember Night Widow can go over 200dps? |
Quote:
Ah, that explains it.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
I used on original thread level ONE DPA unenhenced outcrit numbers.
|
Quote:
| (watch that Hide isnt activated since part of the def goes away when uncovered) |
As to the build, it depends on what (if) you are planning to do for incarnate powers, because you have two big problems that would both be taken care of by Ageless: your recharge is a bit low for the top regular chain, and your endurance consumption is going to kill you. Ageless Core will help both of those, and combined with Spiritual Core could probably fix your recharge entirely.
You might want to grab some more AoE defense, for which you can sacrifice a little of your melee defense.
Otherwise you have pretty good power choices. I would replace Smoke Flash with Hibernate; Smoke Flash isn't nearly as good, and you can still get a temp power version of it if you really want it.
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Quote:
You also need to include your average damage bonus from buildup, plus assault if you have it and set bonuses, add in any procs, and then apply the tohit clamp. But no, that will not be considered "high."
|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Using 66.86 number with 95% damage enhancement is about 130 dps. Is this considered high among Brute/Scrapper/SoA or?
I remember Night Widow can go over 200dps? |
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Quote:
I was planning on taking Musculature for Alpha and Ageless +rec. Ageless rec really makes endo a non issue.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
As to the build, it depends on what (if) you are planning to do for incarnate powers, because you have two big problems that would both be taken care of by Ageless: your recharge is a bit low for the top regular chain, and your endurance consumption is going to kill you. Ageless Core will help both of those, and combined with Spiritual Core could probably fix your recharge entirely.
|
I can throw Sirroco's x5 to reach 41% AoE def. I lose 5% global rech but win ForceFeedback rech proc (which is not nearly as good). If i could snag 2 slots somewhere I'd cap with Perf Shiftx6 in Stamina or go with Sirroco's in Jacob's (+PvP proc) but losing a purple proc really makes me cry.
I also kina dislike Hibernate but all in all it seems to be the best option. Maneuvre with an Enzyme may also be an option if Ageless covers it.
Def caped.
Maneuvre, Jacob's frankensloted for dmg/rech/proc (with pvp n purp proc, purple rec), CI for mucho recharge (+global in Crushing Impact), Water Spout carries little AoE def but Status protection only goes one Recharge.
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1394;695;1390;HEX;| |78DA65934D4F13511486EFB403A585020581F25528082D2D0C544C8C898685A051D| |BD28871A14019CB958E4CA64D3B22E8C68D1BE32746FD038A1A16AE4CDCA9FF83BF| |E0C75EB19E39E7148C2521CFDCF79EF7BDA773CFA436679B84B8372314FF19532F9| |7B30BB66EAECB92EFB2CCE5AD825958DB6A4819655B9606CF79841021DECFA6A429| |A53667CA9C5D3272BA4942B0BA3D2B6F48AB2CB5B461DD34ECF2ADC0792B2F4BD2B| |2B5EA832F532898DA4251CA553F3E9E35D6F2B661AD35E12A29F5222C5AAA8B5559| |2AE78D6268AE68E4B4EA2949B961E8765EB7B229DDE9712B082D8EC0FF03AFE0BF4| |A9D380550DDC2F51FD5A85B888450D78583FAB8CBC145C7A8A051111D8A234DEEC3| |AA5F3CF4F206442A152CAEFF8368D8279C44F84E1366303D092E37E5B9DC94D7748| |2CEAF7208DE6B1D1F5917C7669A0929307BD8EC2173339B5A998FA0C4CB5D79B380| |88685D46B45D232C218E2C12AE22D260696457E3273CABF323611ABB0F1E23EC28C| |E4FEFA17686A1513FB9847F0F0BE621A8853A142D54F518A4006707DE6255CF0EA2| |EF0DE13522F41E1179877802AE76CE6EA7A00C481D24A91D19FCF5A179C46092902| |2A4110A74D7C5095D3D98F00C12BAB995EEBB28853611913B88C90DC26D44E23EB6| |F2145CBDECEA5DC19DB1EB88580E312E09AB888917E872C3F1FD7C8BFD417C6DE12| |EC436E40D70DE000D4E58E070847FE16AF83781C6689886EA12B886D835B482D251| |9DB04858428C2E13B20815BA18E18919A18919E54989303BA124CA5716A5923DE82| |6CE67C53FBB9C9B18FF8298F84AA0E1487C20EC220210A47190C6E16DA04DB13615| |C6B25EF5E053ACF41D3E3BCB4A45C46A94A91A2551A34CD728C76B94648D92510FB| |E60A1A0E26D15CE4D606FDF7CB0CBAD2B13D8FA8F434951AEE0AB8A5D509C0FE8FB| |BFC5512CFE7928B99557781B63DB84E788D84BC45FC2C8E3EE| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
That looks better, but ideally you're gonna want 3.96s recharge on Chain Induction, as well as some more recharge in hasten. If you don't mind using more purples you can try this:
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1394;694;1388;HEX;| |78DA65934B53134114857B92E1914084F00CAF40504848608002454B2C1682969A4| |04A2C576A18434B46A69254121174E3C68DE5134BFD033ECB852BABDCA9FF83BFE0| |63AF18EF9CDB01CBA42AF54D9FBEF7F4E99E9EC4E67CA31077E684E63B699BC5626| |AB964DAEBB2E0BD20D3996CCECEAD6DD527AC624916064ED70921826A3E9590B694| |C6822DD3A58295366D160295E979794D668BD258B4B2D7AD52F186FF4C36230B325| |B322A0FDE642E671BCB7929577D783C65AD654A5676AD11A3B834F33468AA0C5665| |A198B1F2C185BC95362AABC4E586659632663695309D8C5B018A3844FF7B1EA17EE| |51A314BD0DDC2F51FF5885B8849A1AF0B07B5319783734EA386464DB46B8E34BE4B| |A33E71DFA326C8523B8EE2DA59A0FE28E318E03DC198837B9CBADCECE772B35FE30| |C8D6ADD7B1CA473AD512535318439C0686324C8A34E15D4B1C78119DE43B3E2032A| |E12D9775CF300234878196086304688B028B54DBA0F6D2F0098B74CC60A6630A081| |C664C03DD47808314D4C75DC2B70369898C9A389A68E2B40F49F22B6FFF1BEE7F0D| |F4BE62BC0482EF80F05BE01175B52AEF56364A92D4AEF6D49EC4B6834BC0409C916| |02C021AA5EB540E9DDD7078420E5D2A4AD76D48C14D207C0B18DF60DC0426EF22CA| |63EAEA515D3D2B9819B90A44D3C0A864AC0263CFD0E5A6E5FBD4C5E90B68CE8D097| |502DBE4D7AFFCFACB280E095C8ED02F3ED7DF8C5DC61FE03C750DAAAEC11548874C| |C625C66560F80A2305E89462485D9521BE2AC3EA8A84153BA824A25E59844B76284| |D4CAD15FBEC72DEC4E81760EC2BE3231FD007C67BC04F4686323294790B69134A9B| |08A1AC47DFFB14CBBDFBCFCEB05C16D12A65A24A99AC52A6AA94E92A255EA524F5B| |D2F5868503CCDC27913C8F6CD4BB32ABA3686E83FF6254DBB88A38A9E2584C5F77F| |8B2328FEB92FB9B517781B23DB8CA740F439F0171E88DFEC| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Quote:
Still ignoring Arcanatime? |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
AS without stealth is inferior DPA, but with Assassination it's great. Caltrops, Water Spout, and Lightning Rod have pretty high DPA as well(though Caltrops and Water Spout take a long time to apply it).
I suggest you read Microcosm's guide about it. Quote:
|
Scale 7 for AS from hide (2.5 base + 4.5 crit) in 3.168 seconds (Arcanatime for 3 second animation) is damage scale 2.210/sec. To convert to level 50 damage, that's 122.876 damage/sec. For comparison, Blaze is scale 2.102/sec with average DoT ticks accounted for (damage/sec variable based on AT - for Blasters it's 131.49, for Corruptors 88.66 - that's why I normally use damage scale since it's just a straight power-to-power comparison).
And taking AS-from-hide out of the picture, using a 10% critical rate and 100% chance to hit (not capping at 95%) the powers that fall within 65-90 damage/sec are pretty slim - here's the list that's above 64 unenhanced, with over 65 highlighted:
1. Energy Transfer (87.32)Note that pretty much all of Martial Arts is in the top 15 DPA attacks for Stalkers - Thunder Kick and Assassin's Blow are the only two missing.
2. Storm Kick (76.46)
3. Midnight Grasp (75.24)
4. Sweeping Strike (71.62)
5. Golden Dragonfly (70.44)
6. Crippling Axe Kick (70.17)
7. Soaring Dragon (69.51)
8. Smite (67.97)
8. Ablating Strike (67.97)
8. Chain Induction (67.97)
11. Concentrated Strike (65.21)
12. Crane Kick (64.88)
12. Cobra Strike (64.88)
14. Eagle Claw (64.44)
15. Focus (64.41)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am terrible with math but can you calculate MA's dps if Cobra/Crane have 1.33 activation time, Axe has 1.36? (not sure if they would use this kind of number) and Eagle has 2.33s.
I really find MA a bit too slow for its ST dps. They should trim it down a bit. |
2.33 activation = 2.508 sec Arcanatime; current Arcanatime is 2.772 sec, difference of 0.264 sec.
I'm too lazy to come up with attack chains using those activation times, but if you make an attack chain just add up all the damage it would do, then use those numbers for the time the attacks take in the denominator.
It would make the following changes to the list above, though - same situations:
1. Energy Transfer (87.32)(This is why I use a spreadsheet to do all these calculations for me: just fill in new values, let it spit out results! I also let it handle the crit rate for me so I only have to change one number to see how things change around with the no-crit/reduced crit powers!
2. Crippling Axe Kick (81.87)
3. Storm Kick (76.46)
4. Crane Kick (75.69)
4. Cobra Strike (75.69)
6. Midnight Grasp (75.24)
7. Sweeping Strike (71.62)
8. Eagle Claw (71.22)
9. Golden Dragonfly (70.44)
10. Soaring Dragon (69.51)
11. Smite (67.97)
11. Ablating Strike (67.97)
11. Chain Induction (67.97)
14. Concentrated Strike (65.21)
15. Focus (64.41)
)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
I dont understand your conclusion mate.
Quote:
Just nitpicking on skipping Arcanatime after you posted before that you really should take it into account when it was brought up before, and disagreeing with your arbitrary 65-90 range and substituting my own completely arbitrary list.|
Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
I dont understand your conclusion mate.
|
As for the second part of the post... somehow I don't think that the devs are going to give one set 5 of the top 8 DPA attacks, and the top 4 that actually critical.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
1.33 activation OR 1.36 activation = 1.584 sec Arcanatime; current Arcanatime is 1.848 sec, difference of 0.264 sec (2 server ticks).
2.33 activation = 2.508 sec Arcanatime; current Arcanatime is 2.772 sec, difference of 0.264 sec. I'm too lazy to come up with attack chains using those activation times, but if you make an attack chain just add up all the damage it would do, then use those numbers for the time the attacks take in the denominator. It would make the following changes to the list above, though - same situations: 1. Energy Transfer (87.32) |
So the average of 5 best martial arts powers is 76. Using 95% enhancement, MA has about 148 dps (not counting chance to miss of course). The current MA is about 68. I think it's a very reasonable buff for MA. :P
Is this number too good? This doesn't seem that overpowering to me if they trim down the activation time even more for MA since it has no aoe. Each kick needs to be quicker!
It's just sad to see that MA's best attack is a tier 2.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
I think for a set that has zero aoe attack, I think they can make an exception. :P |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
As for the second part of the post... somehow I don't think that the devs are going to give one set 5 of the top 8 DPA attacks, and the top 4 that actually critical. |
Because if you are not taking Patron aoe, you'll need to kill ONE at a time. For a set that has no aoe to work well in a team situation, MA's activation time needs to be a lot quicker than what it is now.
I mean hell, you already have Brute/Scrappers doing +4/8 with great ST damage and AoE damage.
I really think MA is too slow.
(by the way, Claw seems pathetically low? They got rid of the cone but Claw ends up being not a great aoe set and definitely not a good ST set. WTF???)
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Energy Melee is far worse off than Martial Arts in regards to animation times and also has zero AoEs for Stalkers. And it was deliberately changed to be that way when it had little-or-no AoE (based on AT using it) and just high single target damage going for it. So no, the devs aren't going to buy off on giving one set the end-all-be-all single target advantage just on a whim.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I think for a set that has zero aoe attack, I think they can make an exception. :P
Because if you are not taking Patron aoe, you'll need to kill ONE at a time. For a set that has no aoe to work well in a team situation, MA's activation time needs to be a lot quicker than what it is now. |
Or did you miss that every useful power in Martial Arts fits between the DPA of Energy Transfer - admittedly still the highest for Stalkers - and the next best attack for EM, which varies based on your critical rate between Bone Smasher and Total Focus, even without your proposed buff?
While I agree with the premise that if you have no AoE you should be able to make it up with high single target damage, you are in no way coming remotely close to balancing things - it should either be done for both sets, or not done at all and another alternative chosen.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
So electric will be able to do the free AS now with any secondary with spring attack, but Ninja blade and Broadsword will now be able to do it too with ninjutsu since their assassination activation times are slightly longer: Caltrops>BU>spring>AS|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I'm thinking Ninjutsu won't be all that necessary with Spring Attack coming up. EleM/EA will be yummy with the extra recharge and drain+stun synergy, and it fixes the endurance issues.
|
Dual blades and claws might be able to do it too, depending on the redraw time of those weapons.
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Quote:
Yep, but the whole 2 minute recharge thing on Spring Attack bummed me out.
|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
So electric will be able to do the free AS now with any secondary with spring attack, but Ninja blade and Broadsword will now be able to do it too with ninjutsu since their assassination activation times are slightly longer: Caltrops>BU>spring>AS
Dual blades and claws might be able to do it too, depending on the redraw time of those weapons. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Any one keep the numbers from Street Justice from Beta to include here for comparisons sake?
I know they are subject to change but the set was ready for prime time just pulled back to have something to be a big splash on the market after launch so I don't expect a ton of changes.
Global: @Kelig
Quote:
I have the scrapper numbers listed(with crits calculated) here.|
Originally Posted by joebartender
Any one keep the numbers from Street Justice from Beta to include here for comparisons sake?
I know they are subject to change but the set was ready for prime time just pulled back to have something to be a big splash on the market after launch so I don't expect a ton of changes. |
Seeing as everything is the same for scrappers and stalkers except damage(and powers, stalkers don't get Rib Cracker and get BU instead of CR), here are the base(no crits or combos) Stalker damage numbers:
Initial strike: 46.71
Heavy Blow: 64.51
Shin Breaker: 91.2
Sweeping Cross(0): 83.42
Spinning Strike(0): 85.34
Crushing Uppercut(0): 176.84
I wonder if Placate gives +1 to your combo count, hmm.
On a different topic, it just occurred to me that even if Spring Attack has a 2 minute timer, you can still alternate it with Water Spout since as it's on a timer twice as long as Lightning Rod's.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Are you guys using a different notation, or are stalker DPS just that pathetic.
Comparing to the common figures given on the scrapper forums, these numbers suck.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!