Lists of things we could do for Stalkers
By
AzureSkyCiel,
Posted on: 2011-08-24 10:35 in Suggestions and Ideas
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You've said that a couple of times, and in general I agree with you. However, I'm starting to feel that Stalkers are right about due for an actual revamp. Here's the thing: A Brute can make use of his Fury all the time, a Scrapper gets a critical chance on every strike, a Blaster gets Defiance buffs with every attack and gets to use his first two powers from every status effect. Stalkers only ever get to use their toys once every minute. Why?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Rather than completely revamp the AT or sets or whatever, I'd go the route of adding 'moves' to individual sets to give them unique advantages but still in line with the AT's playstyle. What those might be is all a fantasy though, but it's a good step toward making each set unique like the scrapper melee sets tend to feel like vs the afterthought effect stalker melee feels like.
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Honestly, it feels to me like whoever designed Stalkers initially (Castle?) was deathly afraid that the ability to score controlled criticals from Hide was so overpoweringly strong that he effectively Crippled Stalkers' ability to do so. In effect, we have an AT primarily built around delivering shock damage, which has its ability to deliver shock damage severely hamstrung and is then thrown into prolonged fights with multiple opponents where rare occasional shock damage constitutes a very, very small part of the overall fight contribution.
I honestly can't think of another AT where the AT's Inherent plays such a minor, insignificant, ignorable role in the AT's overall performance. I guess Scrappers come close, but at least those guys are a solid, strong AT even without an Inherent whereas Stalkers are built on their Inherent. Basically, for how much Stalkers depend on their controllable criticals, it's a crying shame how much the game cheats them out of said criticals. If a revamp of the whole AT is needed to either make Stalker Hidden criticals more frequent or otherwise make Stalkers less reliant on them, then I'd support a larger-scale revamp. What that revamp may look like, I cannot say, but one might just end up being necessary.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Now that the Paragon Market has it set up to buy ATs, it's a possibility that new ATs might come into existance one day.
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Perhaps if we start paying for them, there might be a good chance of getting those more eccentric ATs. I wouldn't hold my breath for it, however. This is one of those pie-in-the-sky dreams that's not very likely even with Freedom.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Sort of a pointless reply, but I wanted to bring a bit more context as to why I suggested that Assassin's Strikes be given cone and AoE damage components. And the reason for this is simple - Piercing Rounds. Both Assassin's Sword and Assassin's Blade have animations that look like they could hit people well beyond the 7-foot range of melee, reaching all the way out to 10, maybe even 15 feet. I've been playing a Ninja Blade Stalker recently, which is where I got a lot of these ideas, and one thought that always crosses my mind when I use Assassin's Blade in a large crowd is "Man, I so wish I could shishkebap that neat row of three people with one Assassin's Blade right about now!"
Playing a Dual Pistols Blaster to level 40 taught me one big thing - with a narrow enough cone and a difficult enough setup, long-cone piercing powers are generally only useful as an opener either way, since they're so hard to line up. Exactly like my Assassin's Blade, right? Oh, hey, wouldn't it be cool if Assassin's Blade could hit multiple targets? The animation looks right for it and Stalkers do need more AoE.
That was my train of thought around suggesting this change. The rest of the suggestion I sort of cobbled together around that singular idea of making Assassin's Blade go through multiple people 
And I say this as my game is Alt-Tabbed, with my Stalker standing nest to two Longbow soldiers side by side, itching for a penetrating attack. I just hope my finger doesn't slip and I don't use Golden Dragonfly, instead of the massive orverkill on one target while leaving the other unscathed that is Assassin's Blade.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here's a monkey wrench to consider, that would make Stalkers into more of a "flickery" type of Hit-and-Run attacker.
- Critical Hits when NOT Hidden will automatically cast a 3 second Melee Range PBAoE Placate and Hide the Stalker.
- Critical Hits when HIDDEN will automatically recharge Build Up for all Stalker Primaries.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I know that's not what you're saying, but this is something I wanted to pick up on. Once upon a time, Stalkers were called "hit-and-run" fighters, and this was taken literally. You would assassinate a target, then run away and lose aggro, then do it again. The Stalker Fix took care of most of that erroneous thinking by making Stalkers a lot more solid in terms of scrapping power, but the notion still persists even to this day, and it lives on in the Stalkers' basic design. With the slow recharge on Placate and the finicky interruptibility of Assassin's Strike, Stalkers really do lend themselves best to this sort of hit-and-run tactic.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Here's a monkey wrench to consider, that would make Stalkers into more of a "flickery" type of Hit-and-Run attacker.
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Except in this game, that is not and has never been a viable option, because it takes bloody ages to accomplish anything, and, crucially, because it utterly fails on a team. One of the earliest complaints about Stalkers back in the day was that they spent a lot of their time doing nothing just waiting for Hide to come back, especially during AV fights. If we are to help Stalkers, the first thing we need to do is get away from the unreliable, sporadic use of their inherent gimmick. Which, by the way, your idea seems to do
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
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Actually, how about this:
Hide is no longer a toggle. It is, instead, a fast-recharging click power with an infinite duration (99999 seconds, like Mastermind pets). If you have your Hide broken or you break it yourself, you can re-hide immediately, but would then have to wait another, say, 30 seconds if you want to re-hide AGAIN. This moves the waiting time to immediately after you've hidden, instead of putting it down as a buffer between breaking hide and regaining it. It also means that, if you can stay hidden for long enough to have your timer expire, you can re-hide again immediately after breaking hide, and that's without the use of Placate.
Ideally, what I want to happen to Stalkers is for them to gain the ability to hide in plain sight at a moment's notice and do this very frequently. Placate can't really do this, because making it recharge too fast would add too much soft control, like what Touch of Fear delivers, and that's not my point. That's why I spoke about divorcing the placate mechanic from the ability to re-hide.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The *only* way you'd be able to do Hide as a Click Power, rather than a Toggle, would be if you can "click off" buffs on yourself (like WoW permits, for instance). Currently, in Issue 20, that functionality does not exist. But supposedly, in Issue 21, we will be able to "Click to Expire" buffs that are in effect on yourself. So it would be possible to recode Hide as being a Click Power with a LONG duration and a short(ish) recharge like you say.
Still don't think that would be that wise a choice to implement though.
We do know that it is possible for NPCs to cast powers "upon defeat" ... Exhibit A being Nemesis Lieutenants and their Vengeance. It should therefore be possible to apply a "Grant Power" effect to Stalker Primary Attacks which will cause the affected $Target(s) to cast a(n invisible) "carrier power effect" in a PBAoE when they are Defeated which then triggers a HIDE NOW activation on all Stalkers within melee range of the Defeated $Target(s) ... because they have been Defeated.
So it would seem to be technically feasible to do this ... but I honestly don't see the "game changing utility" of being able to implement this, mainly because it will be far more useful on Piles o' Minions, where it's not really needed, rather than on Tough Boss(es), where it is. So although a Hide On Defeat Of $Target mechanic would be "nice to have" in that it would aid Stalkers in better leveraging their Hide Mechanic than they have up until now, it isn't the sort of Combat Aid that I'm thinking Stalkers need to be something OTHER THAN gimped Scrappers.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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I don't think any of this is necessary. The game currently allows buffs marked as "does not stack from the same caster" to simply refresh their duration when a new one is cast before the old one expires. Something as simple as Deflection Shield does exactly that, only it buffs defence as opposed to Stealth radius.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
The *only* way you'd be able to do Hide as a Click Power, rather than a Toggle, would be if you can "click off" buffs on yourself (like WoW permits, for instance). Currently, in Issue 20, that functionality does not exist. But supposedly, in Issue 21, we will be able to "Click to Expire" buffs that are in effect on yourself. So it would be possible to recode Hide as being a Click Power with a LONG duration and a short(ish) recharge like you say.
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The bigger problem is that such a buff cannot be turned off, meaning people would never actually stop being transparent, which would be a pretty big problem. I suppose the buff dispelling tech in I21 might help with this, but I agree that it's a ham-handed approach.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
We do know that it is possible for NPCs to cast powers "upon defeat" ... Exhibit A being Nemesis Lieutenants and their Vengeance. It should therefore be possible to apply a "Grant Power" effect to Stalker Primary Attacks which will cause the affected $Target(s) to cast a(n invisible) "carrier power effect" in a PBAoE when they are Defeated which then triggers a HIDE NOW activation on all Stalkers within melee range of the Defeated $Target(s) ... because they have been Defeated.
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I suggest fixing this by requiring a Stalker to have dealt more than 50% of the total damage against a defeated foe before that foe buffs the Stalker in question. This would encourage Stalkers to actually deal damage, as opposed to just attacking things, though I'm not sure if it may not cross over into tagging, as well.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
So it would seem to be technically feasible to do this ... but I honestly don't see the "game changing utility" of being able to implement this, mainly because it will be far more useful on Piles o' Minions, where it's not really needed, rather than on Tough Boss(es), where it is.
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Now, one could argue that a Stalker shouldn't be fighting +anything spawns, let alone multiples of those, but even were I content to play my Stalkers on an easier difficulty setting than my Scrappers, the fact remains that when on a team, you WILL be fighting precisely that, if not more. Think of your average ITF, Admiral Stutter or Tin Mage - nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is going to sit around and wait for you to hit and run. As a random example, I've tried using Time Bomb on the ITF, and out of about two dozen tries I only got it to connect once. No-one wants to sit and wait for me to set it up and I can't set it up once the fight has started because I keep getting interrupted. Assassin's Strike is much the same way.
Stalkers do pretty well against bosses right now, and if they need to do better, they just need a better Placate power and a faster or heavier Assassin's Strike. It's loads of minions that cause a big problem as Stalkers are very bad at delivering AoE damage and their lower damage mod makes it hard to kill enemies one at a time fast enough, and the way the game is designed, you WILL fight loads of minions, and not very rarely. I mean, run a Stalker through Praetoria and you'll see what I mean
Now, I don't know that divorcing the Hide mechanic from the Placate mechanic in the actual Placate power is necessarily the way to do this. What I DO know, however, is that one of the things that needs to happen to Stalkers is for them to have a much better chance to achieve Hidden status much more often. I don't know how this should happen, and whether it should be through one of my suggestions, one of the others in the thread or something else entirely. But Stalkers need to be able to Hide and score Criticals much more often.
*edit*
Incidentally, I do feel that Assassin's Strike SHOULD hit a little (or a lot) harder. In the lower levels, one-shotting stuff with it is easy, but in the higher levels... Not so much. Right before I came to post this, I used Assassin's Blade on a +1 Crey Crisis Unit - a standard lieutenant for any reasonable difficulty - and I took off no more than half of his health because of his Lethal resistance. And mind you, that's an Assassin's Blade 3-slotted for damage with SOs and using Build Up and I still didn't really do all that much to simple lieutenant. Not good.
And then a while after that, after having engaged one spawn while an unannounced ambush hit me, the one power which saved my *** wasn't Assassin's Strike at all, but a Hidden triple-critical Golden Dragonfly. Assassin's Strike really needs to have something happen to it if even I'm starting to criticise the thing, and I'm generally a fan of the power.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Here's a thought. What if Assassin Strike, rather than being a Melee Range Snipe (yes, it's basically that stupid of a construction) ... what if instead, we had something like a Build Up TOGGLE (yes, toggle!) that had a 1 second activation time with 5 second duration buff ... so you could stack it 5 times on yourself. You'd then get a variable damage increase that corresponds to the amount of prep time spent preparing the strike (ie. 1-5 seconds). While the toggle is building up, you are rooted, and the toggle is automatically shut off by your next attack and then has to recharge.
Cross couple that with making Hide give you +Defense to Melee, Ranged AND AoE while Hidden ... not *just* AoE ... and you'd be able to sidestep a tremendous number of problems with making Placate "work right" through Debuffs (which EVERY Stalker Primary applies!). It would be a workaround, rather than a solution, but one that would "work" in actual gameplay ... except when it "doesn't" due to a Lucky Hit. Hide would then become something akin to a Pocket Elude, which then "breaks" when hit, or when attacking, for 10 seconds.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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That's the elephant in the room, I think. Having corner cases that offer such incredible benefits just as a side effect of offering not that significant a functionality is something that has a huge potential to backfire. For instance, what's to stop Hide-enabled Stalkers from ghosting any mission and escaping from any fight at the push of a button, with no-one really able to stop them? All you'd need to do is fire up Placate once and you're effectively untouchable. Granted, that's what Elude used to be back in 2004 (I still have the original manual which describes it as such), but giving that much protection to Stalkers just doesn't strike me as a safe bet. In fact, giving them almost perfect AoE defence in itself is a kludge.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Hide would then become something akin to a Pocket Elude, which then "breaks" when hit, or when attacking, for 10 seconds.
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I feel a much more direct solution would be to simply make the Hidden not suppress when you receive damage (though the invisibility still could) and only suppress when you attack, and to make Assassin's Strike uninterrputible. That way, Stalkers gain the ability to assassinate in combat and the ability to score much more reliable Hidden criticals with much more room for error, which is something I'm finding they have very little of for being as mediocre fighters as they are.
Assassination and Hidden criticals should not be considered the exception for Stalkers. They should be the norm.
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I also wanted to go back to something Leo suggested - longer Build Up instead of more frequent Build Up. Initially I disagreed with this, but I neglected a very important problem. If a Stalker wishes to assassinate with Build Up, then nearly half the buff time of the power is used up just charging up that Assassin's Strike attack. The only other powerset type where this is even an issue is Blast sets for Blasters, Defenders and Corruptors. Trying to use Aim + Build Up + Snipe is probably the WORST use of Build Up time available, but at least for these ATs, that's actually a provably bad move. For Stalkers, that's what they're supposed to be doing...
I'm starting to wonder if it might not be a better idea to assassinate bare and THEN use Build Up even on targets I can't one-shot.
*edit*
After running a few numbers, it turns out that... No, I'm really not better off using Build Up after I assassinate, as an Assassin's Strike constitutes both the highest DPA and the highest DPS of at least Ninja Blade, and with other sets being slower, I have some degree of doubt things will be different there. However, even on the best day, Assassin's Blade's DPA of ~106 isn't all that much higher than those of Gamblers cut and, crucially, Golden Dragonfly. This tells me that assassination powers are either too slow or too weak, or possibly both. And I'm not even looking at DPS since proper Assassin's Strikes are next to impossible to pull off in a melee.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Maybe as an 'out of hide' 'bonus'. Being able to AS 3+ guys? Heh, you think people complain now about how hard AS is to pull off because "It's their signature power! you're *supposed* to be using it every time you can!" just imagine how many will get frustrated because you *have* to hit multiple foes with it or else it's garbage.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Sort of a pointless reply, but I wanted to bring a bit more context as to why I suggested that Assassin's Strikes be given cone and AoE damage components. And the reason for this is simple - Piercing Rounds. Both Assassin's Sword and Assassin's Blade have animations that look like they could hit people well beyond the 7-foot range of melee, reaching all the way out to 10, maybe even 15 feet. I've been playing a Ninja Blade Stalker recently, which is where I got a lot of these ideas, and one thought that always crosses my mind when I use Assassin's Blade in a large crowd is "Man, I so wish I could shishkebap that neat row of three people with one Assassin's Blade right about now!"
Playing a Dual Pistols Blaster to level 40 taught me one big thing - with a narrow enough cone and a difficult enough setup, long-cone piercing powers are generally only useful as an opener either way, since they're so hard to line up. Exactly like my Assassin's Blade, right? Oh, hey, wouldn't it be cool if Assassin's Blade could hit multiple targets? The animation looks right for it and Stalkers do need more AoE. That was my train of thought around suggesting this change. The rest of the suggestion I sort of cobbled together around that singular idea of making Assassin's Blade go through multiple people And I say this as my game is Alt-Tabbed, with my Stalker standing nest to two Longbow soldiers side by side, itching for a penetrating attack. I just hope my finger doesn't slip and I don't use Golden Dragonfly, instead of the massive orverkill on one target while leaving the other unscathed that is Assassin's Blade. |
Besides, one less downfall to AS and the playstyle in general is you don't have to worry about foe positioning. This will just emphasize the need to herd foes up rather than simply getting the job done.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I know that's not what you're saying, but this is something I wanted to pick up on. Once upon a time, Stalkers were called "hit-and-run" fighters, and this was taken literally. You would assassinate a target, then run away and lose aggro, then do it again. The Stalker Fix took care of most of that erroneous thinking by making Stalkers a lot more solid in terms of scrapping power, but the notion still persists even to this day, and it lives on in the Stalkers' basic design. With the slow recharge on Placate and the finicky interruptibility of Assassin's Strike, Stalkers really do lend themselves best to this sort of hit-and-run tactic.
Except in this game, that is not and has never been a viable option, because it takes bloody ages to accomplish anything, and, crucially, because it utterly fails on a team. One of the earliest complaints about Stalkers back in the day was that they spent a lot of their time doing nothing just waiting for Hide to come back, especially during AV fights. If we are to help Stalkers, the first thing we need to do is get away from the unreliable, sporadic use of their inherent gimmick. Which, by the way, your idea seems to do I actually like this, to be honest. It gives Stalkers a more controllable means to abuse their Inherent, and that's the one thing which could set them apart from being just stealthy Scrappers. I wonder, though, if its still random nature won't be better served by something more predictable. I mentioned killing enemies causing you to hide before because it's slightly easier to plan for when an enemy you've damaged will fall... But it's not all that much more controllable, actually. Actually, how about this: Hide is no longer a toggle. It is, instead, a fast-recharging click power with an infinite duration (99999 seconds, like Mastermind pets). If you have your Hide broken or you break it yourself, you can re-hide immediately, but would then have to wait another, say, 30 seconds if you want to re-hide AGAIN. This moves the waiting time to immediately after you've hidden, instead of putting it down as a buffer between breaking hide and regaining it. It also means that, if you can stay hidden for long enough to have your timer expire, you can re-hide again immediately after breaking hide, and that's without the use of Placate. Ideally, what I want to happen to Stalkers is for them to gain the ability to hide in plain sight at a moment's notice and do this very frequently. Placate can't really do this, because making it recharge too fast would add too much soft control, like what Touch of Fear delivers, and that's not my point. That's why I spoke about divorcing the placate mechanic from the ability to re-hide. |
But if I were simplifying the suggestion above, it'd be to swap Assassination and Hide. Hide would be the Passive and Assassinate the toggle. Basically, you get passive stealth and defense that never turns off or need to be reapplied, you'll just go transparent after using an awake or whatever. Assassination would be a -stealth toggle that'd basically give you a free crit when turn it on then 10% crit while you keep it on. You can then lower rehide to 4 sec so, you can crit from hidden, toggle on assassination and crit again, then just fight as normal until you need to hide again.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It's loads of minions that cause a big problem as Stalkers are very bad at delivering AoE damage and their lower damage mod makes it hard to kill enemies one at a time fast enough, and the way the game is designed, you WILL fight loads of minions, and not very rarely. I mean, run a Stalker through Praetoria and you'll see what I mean
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Stalkers aren't bad at delivering AoE. They're actually pretty darn good if someone else set up the enemies for them. All I know is my Spines/DA stalker is set to +4 by default and goes higher depending on what foes he faces. My Elec/Regen orchestrates mob killing before he even drops LR and although my DB/Nin isn't IO'ed well, on teams, it's quite easy to demolish all herded minions in 2 moves or a LT and 3 moves if you use a red or two with her procced out Sweep combo.
I'm honestly confused when people mention AoE and Stalker. Is 50% chance of crit + a high dmg buff (and hey, pop reds when you know when your boom is going to be biggest!) *twice in a row* not effective? Or are you just comparing across select AoE builds?
To me, dead and dead fast mobs are the same no matter how you do it and Stalkers can do it too. Looking forward to more sets with varied AoE on Stalkers. Fire Melee, Ice Melee, Axe/Mace, Super Strength and all the new sets. If those sets aren't enough to make people get beyond the stigma that 'Stalkers can't do AoE well' I guess I'll just be forever confused...
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Not if it retains its original Assassination critical and just spreads a more minor damage component, say its out-of-hide damage (which isn't half bad, actually).|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Maybe as an 'out of hide' 'bonus'. Being able to AS 3+ guys? Heh, you think people complain now about how hard AS is to pull off because "It's their signature power! you're *supposed* to be using it every time you can!" just imagine how many will get frustrated because you *have* to hit multiple foes with it or else it's garbage.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
We're just getting further and further from viable changes, if you ask me. It's just going to be less likely that the devs will consider using these suggestions.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Prove it.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Stalkers aren't bad at delivering AoE. They're actually pretty darn good if someone else set up the enemies for them. All I know is my Spines/DA stalker is set to +4 by default and goes higher depending on what foes he faces. My Elec/Regen orchestrates mob killing before he even drops LR and although my DB/Nin isn't IO'ed well, on teams, it's quite easy to demolish all herded minions in 2 moves or a LT and 3 moves if you use a red or two with her procced out Sweep combo.
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If you don't see Stalkers as having problems against multiple small targets, then I have a hard time believing you see them as having problems against single large targets, which was the point I was trying to make with that half a paragraph you quoted. Against bosses, a decent Stalker can do wonders, even if said boss is resistant. Elite Bosses are sometimes a problem, but I can say the same for my Scrappers and Brutes and Masterminds.
My point was that when fighting a boss, you can apply a lot of your Stalker tools against that boss. When fighting a large spawn, what do you do after you've used up your Hidden status and your Placate? What do you do when you're fighting Hro and enemies just keep on coming and keep on coming? What do you do when you fight Hector and six boss ambushes stream to you one after the other? What do you do when you take two steps in Praetoria and get three ambushes spawning on top of you simultaneously?
Because, really, the only two options you have are "scrap like a Scrapper" and "run away to regain Hide." The latter is a waste of time and the former puts you at a disadvantage. That's all I'm saying.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I guess, but I'm just not a fan of it. You'd still have players only wanting to use it on a huddle of foes rather than the target that needs to be dead. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Not if it retains its original Assassination critical and just spreads a more minor damage component, say its out-of-hide damage (which isn't half bad, actually).
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| There's no need to be hostile, Leo. If you disagree, feel free to disagree, but please don't throw things like that in my face. It helps nobody. |
I'm simply stating a fact and asking you to better express why you feel the contrary.
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| My point is that, as compared to Scrappers, Stalkers both lack an AoE delivery power AND have a lower damage mod at that. I'm sure your Spines and Electric Stalkers are good at AoE, but are you comparing them with Scrappers and Brutes? Are you specifically aiming to get your AoEs to hit critical damage? Becuase I tried doing that with mine on my Ninja Blade and Broadsword Stalkers and the results were a lot of squandered Hides. |
My main is a Kat/SR like yours. He's adaquate at AoE and that's about it. Lotus Drop, while a nice chunck of PBAoE, isn't going to win any farming contests. The point is the set itself, Katana, isn't an AoE focused set. It just *can* do AoE. This goes for MA, EM, and DM too. The only outlier to the comparison is Claws which can do GREAT AoE except on Stalkers where it can simply do 'some'.
What will you say when Stalker get more proliferation? Honestly, I'd like to know. I haven't really lost faith and am sure the devs have learned some valuable lessons from the past. Just remember, Stalkers haven't had a melee set proliferated since Elec Melee...and BS doesn't count. But more will happen.
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My point was that when fighting a boss, you can apply a lot of your Stalker tools against that boss. When fighting a large spawn, what do you do after you've used up your Hidden status and your Placate? What do you do when you're fighting Hro and enemies just keep on coming and keep on coming? What do you do when you fight Hector and six boss ambushes stream to you one after the other? What do you do when you take two steps in Praetoria and get three ambushes spawning on top of you simultaneously? Because, really, the only two options you have are "scrap like a Scrapper" and "run away to regain Hide." The latter is a waste of time and the former puts you at a disadvantage. That's all I'm saying. |
As for the last part, it's really just preference. I don't see Stalkers as being at a disadvantage engaging and I don't see running as a waste of time. One is just what you gotta do and the other is self preservation.
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I don't know... I realise AoE is king in City of Heroes, but I've seen what happens to attacks that are AoE but are balanced like single-target attacks. I'm speaking of Golden Dragonfly, Head Splitter, Dark Maul and a few others. Sure, those ARE AoE and everyone will at least try to snag multiple targets, but so long as the things aren't actually hurting you for using them on single targets, then I don't really see them as very problematic.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I guess, but I'm just not a fan of it. You'd still have players only wanting to use it on a huddle of foes rather than the target that needs to be dead.
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Take, for instance, Slice/Flashing Steel. The power has a DPE that's almost equal to that of single-target attacks. As such, I ended up using it as a single target attack a lot of the time. With AoEs like Whirling Sword or Fire Sword Circle, you're typically burning too much endurance to "waste" them on just one or two targets, so I tend to hold those back, but with Flashing Steel... If it comes up in my attack chain against a single target, I'll use it without actually even thinking about it.
To me, that's the goal of making Assassin's Strike AoE. If you have enemies clustered before you engage, great! If you don't... Well, it's still an awesome power.
Of course, I can't make you like something you don't
And I suspect this might also cause some fairly serious balance problems. But, hey, that's why I left it at the back. It's a long shot, but like I said - I'm trying to put together a list of everything we COULD do to Stalkers to improve them, not necessarily everything we SHOULD do to them Quote:
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Your problem is, you think Katana has amazing AoE on non-stalkers.
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The reason I bring this up is that's kind of like the Blaster situation. People kept telling me Blasters are just fine and super strong, and then directing me to play specific set combos. When I wanted to play something else, I was told that's obviously not going to have great damage or great survivability or what have you.
My main is a Kat/SR like yours. He's adaquate at AoE and that's about it. Lotus Drop, while a nice chunck of PBAoE, isn't going to win any farming contests. The point is the set itself, Katana, isn't an AoE focused set. It just *can* do AoE. This goes for MA, EM, and DM too. The only outlier to the comparison is Claws which can do GREAT AoE except on Stalkers where it can simply do 'some'.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
As for the last part, it's really just preference. I don't see Stalkers as being at a disadvantage engaging and I don't see running as a waste of time. One is just what you gotta do and the other is self preservation.
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If we're intended to occasionally break aggro and attack anew, this should be part of the Stalker's own tools, like Smoke Flash is for Ninjutsu, not effectively an abuse of the game's poor AI. And mind you, I WOULD actually support adding a Smoke Flash like power to more Stalker sets as something inherent. I just fear that making Stalkers take longer to deal with a spawn isn't in their best interest, especially in light of their other problems. If we're looking to improve them (and we are), we should be looking at ways to make them have to run away less.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You also seem convinced stalker AoE is fine when the example of melee sets for stalkers were heavily AoE sets (Electric, spines, and dual blades).|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Your problem is, you think Katana has amazing AoE on non-stalkers.
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however, compare to Energy melee, which loses it's own AoE attack, or claws, which loses one AoE attack and has it's most powerful melee attack get turned into a Single Target attack.
Then there's the fact that Stalkers have a reduced crit chance on their AoEs, even from hide, compared to a scrapper or Brute, who do not lose out on damage potential just because it's an AoE.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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And continue on with that question - What sets, in general melee, are considered to have great AoE damage? Well, Elec Melee and Spines are regarded as AoE focused possibly to the extent of being poorer at ST. Then there's Dual Blades, Axe/Mace with its 2 cones + PBAoE. Claws, a strike against Stalkers, with its faster recharging cones and PBAoE. Fire Melee has only 1 cone and a PBAoE but they do more dmg with DoT. Then outliers like Super Stength's Footstomp and armor sets like Fiery Aura and Shields...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
On a Stalker? It kind of does, but I guess we disagree on that part. Let me invert that into a question, though - what sets do you feel have great AoE on a Stalker? If we discount Katana, we also have to discount Broadsword, that goes double for Martial Arts and Energy Melee, I assume claws loses its Spin, so that would probably go for that, too, Dark is obviously discounted and... What am I forgetting? I get that Spines is seen as having great AoE, but what else really is there? Energy Melee, that's what I was forgetting!
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MA? DM? Stone? Energy? Kinetic? BS? These are not sets known for 'Great AoE'. Now compare the sets that do 'great AoE' to sets Stalkers currently have access to...
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Well... You were the one who insisted that running away to rehide was a complete waste of time when last we discussed this, and I agreed with you then. Running away to lose aggro takes even longer. In general, yet, it's down to preference, but the thing is that I'm comparing speed of progress through missions. I can grab a Scrapper or a Brute and never have to disengage from a fight. If I grab a Stalker, I don't want my fights to routinely take twice as long because I had to run away. This is the exact reason I gave up on Blasters, and I don't want to do the same for Stalkers. Them I actually like. If we're intended to occasionally break aggro and attack anew, this should be part of the Stalker's own tools, like Smoke Flash is for Ninjutsu, not effectively an abuse of the game's poor AI. And mind you, I WOULD actually support adding a Smoke Flash like power to more Stalker sets as something inherent. I just fear that making Stalkers take longer to deal with a spawn isn't in their best interest, especially in light of their other problems. If we're looking to improve them (and we are), we should be looking at ways to make them have to run away less. |
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
You also seem convinced stalker AoE is fine when the example of melee sets for stalkers were heavily AoE sets
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It's why I don't say 'Stalkers' have poor or good AoE, but 'sets' have poor or good AoE.
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| Then there's the fact that Stalkers have a reduced crit chance on their AoEs, even from hide, compared to a scrapper or Brute, who do not lose out on damage potential just because it's an AoE. |
10-50% is greater than 5-10%.
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If Stalkers have a much greater proportion of sets that have poor or no AoE, I think it's fair to say Stalkers in general are not strong in that area. It looks like you disagree there. /shrug|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
It's why I don't say 'Stalkers' have poor or good AoE, but 'sets' have poor or good AoE.
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Speaking only for myself, I have no interest in playing sets that have no AoE or only a single 5-target cone. What that means is that if I want to roll a Scrapper, almost every single attack set available to Scrappers is on the table. On the other hand if I want to roll a Stalker, my options are severely limited.
From my perspective there is a deep and wide chasm between the two in terms of AoE potential. I can understand that you may value things differently, but your attempts to paint a picture of Stalkers as not being disadvantaged at all in that area seem disingenuous at best.
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And I generally do try to do just that. Ninjutsu's deliberately inferior defences in favour of control notwithstanding, a Stalker can typically "stand and fight" about as well as a Scrapper, ignoring outgoing damage effects. Well, ignoring Ninjutsu and Willpower and Regeneration, since the latter two cap their hitpoints on their own, but we're talking about raising the the Stalker max hit points cap, aren't we? |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The difference between a Stalker running and a Brute/Scrapper running is, one isn't wholly penalized while the others are. I'm not saying Stalkers should run or fit it into their routines, but that,when one *has* to run, it isn't wasting time. Being dead is more a waste than hopping away for 10-12 sec. If you can say you'd never have to run on Brute/Scrap, then you can probably build a Stalker to do the same.
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What I mean is that if we find Stalkers having to run away too often, I'd consider this a problem that needs to be addressed, not a natural part of playing the AT. If a Stalker is forced to flee, then something went wrong. Even as a Ninjutsu Stalker, I rarely have to do this, and I maintain that when I do, either I screwed up bad or the game screwed me (such as stacking defence-debuffing Roman ambushes on top of me).
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
It's why I don't say 'Stalkers' have poor or good AoE, but 'sets' have poor or good AoE.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Stalkers do not hace reduced crit values on AoEs. A Scrapper will crit 5-10% on Ripper or Spine Burst. A Stalker will crit 10% on each of those naturally and 50% on those from hide.
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Furthermore, here's a big problem with low-percentage AoE criticals - it robs Stalker sets of their heaviest hitters. Literally robs them, as both Claws and Spines have their big hitters changed from a cone to a single-target attack. This is done to give them a good attack from Hide, but it comes at the expense of their scrapping performance, and I can attest to just how awesome it is having a high damage cone like Head Splitter or Golden Dragonfly first hand. If we make Hidden AoE criticals guaranteed or at least a much higher percentage, we can give Stalker sets their heavy-hitting cones back. Head Splitter/Golden Dragonfly would become much more awesome, the Claws and Spines heavy attacks (why do I keep forgetting their names?!?) would return to being awesome, Thunder Strike will become even more impressive, and then we can work on adding at least SOME AoE to Martial Arts and Energy Melee. I don't know where, but I'm sure there is room for improvement.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Thinking about it, it could be that giving the limited AoEs stalkers get guaranteed crits from hide, while not unbalancing in PvE, would be for character creation. Players would gravitate towards much more AoE heavy sets, resulting in sets that lost all their AoEs to be unplayed.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
But shouldn't we take into account that Stalkers sets generally lose an AoE attack from their Scrapper counterparts when their sets make the jump? Or are you arguing that this is irrelevant and made up by... What, Hidden criticals? ...
I'm pretty sure that's 60%, but I could be wrong. Either way, do you see it as a problem if Stalkers had guaranteed Hidden criticals on their AoEs, or at the very least a very high chance percentage, something on the order of 90-95%? It wouldn't really help sets like Martial Arts and Energy Melee, but it would help all others. |
Admittedly, they could avoid THAT by not taking away the AoEs in the first PLACE!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If we make Hidden AoE criticals guaranteed or at least a much higher percentage, we can give Stalker sets their heavy-hitting cones back. Head Splitter/Golden Dragonfly would become much more awesome, the Claws and Spines heavy attacks (why do I keep forgetting their names?!?) would return to being awesome, Thunder Strike will become even more impressive, and then we can work on adding at least SOME AoE to Martial Arts and Energy Melee. I don't know where, but I'm sure there is room for improvement.
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On the second point of where one could fit it in, my proposal: since we've talked about Hide becoming an inherent, perhaps we could even go crazy and propose Placate and/or Assassin's Strike ALSO become an inherent. While the only example of AT's with multiple, slottable inherent are Kheldian travel powers, I don't quite see why it couldn't be extended to a regular AT while giving back a power of the set.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Lol why do you guys listen to me? Then I get all drawn into the discussion and have to elaborate/defend my perspective :P
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And then a new set shows up on the block and a couple more sets are proliferated. One statement will remain true while the other becomes moot. /shrug|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
If Stalkers have a much greater proportion of sets that have poor or no AoE, I think it's fair to say Stalkers in general are not strong in that area. It looks like you disagree there. /shrug
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| Speaking only for myself, I have no interest in playing sets that have no AoE or only a single 5-target cone. What that means is that if I want to roll a Scrapper, almost every single attack set available to Scrappers is on the table. On the other hand if I want to roll a Stalker, my options are severely limited. |
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| From my perspective there is a deep and wide chasm between the two in terms of AoE potential. I can understand that you may value things differently, but your attempts to paint a picture of Stalkers as not being disadvantaged at all in that area seem disingenuous at best. |
If I'm painting a picture of Stalkers not being disadvantge, then you're painting a picture that Stalkers are crippled. Newsflash: neither is true.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
But shouldn't we take into account that Stalkers sets generally lose an AoE attack from their Scrapper counterparts when their sets make the jump? Or are you arguing that this is irrelevant and made up by... What, Hidden criticals? What are you saying, exactly? The only reason I bring AoE up is Stalker sets almost universally have fewer AoE attacks than Scrapper sets, and therefore their AoE suffers. The drive of my AoE Assassin's Strike suggestion was to give them back the AoE they lost. I highly doubt this will hurt the AT.
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AS is an attack shared by every Stalker but not all Stalker sets lose AoE. So why should the ones that lose nothing gain more? The addition isn't justified, IMO.
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| I'm pretty sure that's 60%, but I could be wrong. Either way, do you see it as a problem if Stalkers had guaranteed Hidden criticals on their AoEs, or at the very least a very high chance percentage, something on the order of 90-95%? It wouldn't really help sets like Martial Arts and Energy Melee, but it would help all others. |
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| Furthermore, here's a big problem with low-percentage AoE criticals - it robs Stalker sets of their heaviest hitters. Literally robs them, as both Claws and Spines have their big hitters changed from a cone to a single-target attack. |
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Cards on the table: I'm clearly missing something. Which Stalker set is it that gains an Assassin's Strike without losing an AoE power in the process? Are we looking at Dark losing... What, Dark Consumption? Soul Drain? This isn't sarcasm, by the way. This is me honestly not knowing.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
AS is an attack shared by every Stalker but not all Stalker sets lose AoE. So why should the ones that lose nothing gain more? The addition isn't justified, IMO.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I also advocated guaranteed AoE crits now that KM's burst gets to keep its little advantage there. You can compensate the ST sets in other ways.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
FYI, Ripper is still a cone.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Just kind of poking through (admittedly not really *reading,* skimming while on lunch break) and reading this - |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I also wanted to go back to something Leo suggested - longer Build Up instead of more frequent Build Up. Initially I disagreed with this, but I neglected a very important problem. If a Stalker wishes to assassinate with Build Up, then nearly half the buff time of the power is used up just charging up that Assassin's Strike attack. The only other powerset type where this is even an issue is Blast sets for Blasters, Defenders and Corruptors. Trying to use Aim + Build Up + Snipe is probably the WORST use of Build Up time available, but at least for these ATs, that's actually a provably bad move. For Stalkers, that's what they're supposed to be doing...
I'm starting to wonder if it might not be a better idea to assassinate bare and THEN use Build Up even on targets I can't one-shot. |
Assassin Strike - if used alone, no build up. If used with build up, adds a build up to the end to make up for the time? Or, while we're doign the AOE fear, a bit more of a debuff of def or res?
*shrug* Random thought.
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The only one is Electrical Melee, provided that when you say "AoE power" you really mean "AoE damage power." I think that is the way most people look at it though. Electrical Melee is unique in that way, which probably helps explain its popularity.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Which Stalker set is it that gains an Assassin's Strike without losing an AoE power in the process?
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Edit: FYI in case you weren't familiar, Lightning Clap (a clone of Hand Clap from SS) was the power removed in the Stalker version.
Edit2: Also it's interesting that the original version we were shown had Thunder Strike removed for AS instead of Lightning Clap. It was only after much complaining and cajoling that we were able to get the version we have today.
A.S. with AoE. . . Set Bomb! (Must retreat after setting or be caught in the blast with targets). . .
Well the visual is cool!
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Yes we're talking about 'AoE damage power' because he's talking about adding in universal AoE dmg to each set.|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
The only one is Electrical Melee, provided that when you say "AoE power" you really mean "AoE damage power." I think that is the way most people look at it though. Electrical Melee is unique in that way, which probably helps explain its popularity.
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And there's the new Street Justice set which removes a single target attack (Rib Cracker that does moderate dmg and -res -dmg) for AS.
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Aaah! OK, NOW that makes sense. Frankly, I feel very strongly that taking Lighting Clap away from Electrical Melee is an improvement to the set even if you put nothing in its place and leave the set with just 8 powers. So trading that for Assassin's Shock is an unambiguous improvement. OK, I see what you mean now.|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
Edit: FYI in case you weren't familiar, Lightning Clap (a clone of Hand Clap from SS) was the power removed in the Stalker version.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Assassin Strike - if used alone, no build up. If used with build up, adds a build up to the end to make up for the time? Or, while we're doign the AOE fear, a bit more of a debuff of def or res?
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I'm not sure if I appended that to my original post, but someone suggested something to this effect previously. That one was just a flat damage buff after a successful assassination, and I honestly did like that one, and I honestly do like yours, as well. Considering how long Stalkers spend doing Assassin's Strike and Placate, having some way to elongate Build Up or supplement it would be swell.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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