On a scrapper, how well do you keep targets inside Burn ?
I don't. They run to the four hills as soon as I drop Burn.
In my experience, despite forum claims, KD was never enough on tankers or brutes back when Burn caused fear, even on something like Stone Melee spamming 2 PBAoE KDs or Ice Melee with Ice Patch, and what I'm seeing on scrappers is pretty close to what used to happen at that time, except that on tankers and brutes the mobs actually ran back and forth quite fast whereas on scrappers they are more than happy to run away for literally 20 seconds at time, or sit at range, I'm guessing because of the lack of taunt. Slows don't do the trick either as even at the slow cap they just run away too fast for the tiny radius. The only AoE immob that seems available to scrappers is TT. Teaming could be the answer, assuming one would always want to wait for someone else to initiate the fight and grab aggro (which can be in itself a damage loss if the tanker isn't as fast as you are).
The DoT is so big in Burn - twice bigger than what is shown in Mids and CoD - that I simply can't accept losing most, or even just half of it.
My experience is similar. On Ambush farms it's not a problem but in normal content they flee like sissies. Of course, they usually don't live long enough to run. (see second youtube link in sig)
Didn't try this myself yet but supposedly Double Blades sweep combo just before burn should work (I saw someone doing this in an ITF run and it was working fine maybe except for bosses but he was using auto-follow on bosses and usually enters another mob with running boss than making same move.
Did burn get changed again? Last time I checked the fear component was removed from it, did they add it back in?
Quote:
It's gone, but stuff still runs. This issue goes beyond Burn. My brutes can see runners, but with the taunt aura and attacking they usually come right back. On scrappers, those guys just run.
|
Originally Posted by Mechafang
Did burn get changed again? Last time I checked the fear component was removed from it, did they add it back in?
|
Quote:
The fear that used to be in Burn was a programmed effect that told the targets to GTFO NAO!! Note: This is not the same as the Terrorize effect in powers like Fearsome Stare.| Did burn get changed again? Last time I checked the fear component was removed from it, did they add it back in? |
The running that Burn causes now is just an aspect of enemy AI that triggers due to the enemy receiving too much damage. That causes the enemies to run once their morale breaks. Morale basically measures the amount of damage/debuffs or other effects on an NPC and tells it "you're good, stay and fight" or "you're screwed. Run away." Taunt auras can override this portion of the enemy AI causing them to hang around and enjoy the warmth. Scrapper's version FA doesn't have a taunt aura, so the enemies will still flee.
It's good to see this thread because I was wondering about this myself. I've just recently started playing a /FA Brute which is too low level to have endurance under control enough to run the damage aura. I've noticed the constant running and was wondering what was going on. I remembered reading that the fear component was removed, and I checked CoD to be sure. I considered it might be just the demoralize effect, but they sure do take off more than that seems to explain.
I don't see mobs run off like that even on other ATs using high damage attacks. It seems like mobs run as soon as I use Burn. Is there something about the heavy ticking DoT that triggers the demoralize effect more than another attack that does the same damage but delivers it in one lump? I'm currently at a loss to fully explain what I'm seeing when using that power.
Mobs naturally try to avoid damage patches, their AI tells them it's bad to stand in them.
Honestly I think FA is a poor secondary choice for scrappers because it takes too much effort to keep foes in burn.
Quote:
Mob morale is not just individual, its also group base. One example for this if you hit and one-shot (or drop him lower than %50 hp) much lower level enemy in a mob whole mob starts running even if you didn't attacked them. Its like something between "I am taking x amount of damage in y ticks" and "My group took x amount of damage in 1 tick" or at least this is how I observed the situation. Burn probably triggers both conditions in a crowded group and if conditions made like a meter and first conditions fills some second conditions fill some more it may explain the chickens in the CoH :P
|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
It's good to see this thread because I was wondering about this myself. I've just recently started playing a /FA Brute which is too low level to have endurance under control enough to run the damage aura. I've noticed the constant running and was wondering what was going on. I remembered reading that the fear component was removed, and I checked CoD to be sure. I considered it might be just the demoralize effect, but they sure do take off more than that seems to explain.
I don't see mobs run off like that even on other ATs using high damage attacks. It seems like mobs run as soon as I use Burn. Is there something about the heavy ticking DoT that triggers the demoralize effect more than another attack that does the same damage but delivers it in one lump? I'm currently at a loss to fully explain what I'm seeing when using that power. |
I am simply rerolling all my scrappers without a taunt aura as Brutes, especially now that the sword sets are going to Brutes.
Running mobs are just too frustrating.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Quote:
There also seems to be the "OMG I am debuffed" run code, which kicks in for Katana, Broadsword, and other sets with inherit debuffs. I don't seem as many runners on my MA as my Katana where everything runs as soon as it gets the -Def debuff.
|
Originally Posted by Kangstor
Mob morale is not just individual, its also group base. One example for this if you hit and one-shot (or drop him lower than %50 hp) much lower level enemy in a mob whole mob starts running even if you didn't attacked them. Its like something between "I am taking x amount of damage in y ticks" and "My group took x amount of damage in 1 tick" or at least this is how I observed the situation. Burn probably triggers both conditions in a crowded group and if conditions made like a meter and first conditions fills some second conditions fill some more it may explain the chickens in the CoH :P
|
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Quote:
Depressingly, that makes them smarter than me a lot of the time |
Originally Posted by TheOOB
Mobs naturally try to avoid damage patches, their AI tells them it's bad to stand in them.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
English does not borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar.
|
Quote:
That's one of the main reasons I prefer Brutes over Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
Running mobs are just too frustrating.
|
I understand that the devs don't want their mobs to be dumb sacks of hit points that just stand there and get pounded, but the running doesn't make things any harder, just annoying and frustrating. It seems to be here to stay though.
Quote:
This is the same behaviour I've observed, as a brute. They still manage to run, as the taunt is "mild". However, If I smack them again, they'll usually come back, but not always. I can also herd them back up with the aura if I want, or I can just ignore the few really stubborn runners and move along. But with no taunt at all, as a scrapper .... |
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
It's gone, but stuff still runs. This issue goes beyond Burn. My brutes can see runners, but with the taunt aura and attacking they usually come right back. On scrappers, those guys just run.
|
My number one problem to achieving some of my goals is runners.
- Reactive makes things run so fast it's not even funny. It must be the fire dot.
- Romulus running like a lunatic in both mission 3 and mission 4 of the ITF.
- Romulus running like a lunatic and having an additional +3 immobilize protection in mission 3 that he doesn't have in mission 4.
- Wanting to maximize AoE Dump, otherwise what's the point of all that AoE if it doesn't hit anything. Might as well stick to Katana with an immobilize.
All of which means I may have to stick to the Brute side of things for the AoE builds that aren't INV, WP, or SD. That or figure out how to pickup an immobilize and use it effectively, and I'm not real sure how viable that will be as a scrapper. If only scrappers could get Mu Fences, I'd be set.
PS: When I measured dps on an AV, I lost a minimum of 20% to runners, thus eliminating the tauntless scrappers damage advantage.
As a brute, you have a mild taunt effect in Blazing Aura. The taunt is mild, but helpful, even though things can still run away.
As a scrapper how do you, or how well do you, keep targets in Burn and in close proximity for your PBAoEs ?
I'm very interested in (WM primarily or BA secondarily) / FA as a possible scrapper, but I'm cringing at the thought of no taunt at all. I know the KD will help with the running issue, but may not be enough.
I know one answer is: "Burn dumps more damage up front now, so I don't worry about runners."
I'm wondering if there are any other answers ?