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I'd say both are useful - however from my experience WHEN they'll be more useful differs. |
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Hello. I'm building a Defender with MIDS. I want this character to be the ultimate support teammate. I'm not interested in having DPS. Let the other ATs handle that. This character merely exists to keep his/her teammates on their feet and fighting. Therefore, the Primary will be Empathy for the Heals.
The question is about which Secondary Powerset would be best. Sonic's attacks do -RES. Rad's attacks do -DEF. I know the difference. -RES lowers their Resistance (no really!) to the damage done, thereby having the bad guy take more damage than they normally would while -DEF makes bad guys easier to hit. Which is preferable? Also, is the Leadership pool worth getting? Somewhere on these forums, someone mentioned that the bonuses for the +DEF from Maneuvers, the +DMG from Assault, and the +THBuff from Tactics really aren't worth the END drain that they cause. I should know . . . My Blaster had all 3 three of them and during combat, my END disappeared quicker than chocolate chip cookies disappear from my cookie jar. I respecced out of it and took the Medicine pool instead. Teammates like it when you can rez them.  Any advice will be most appreciated.  |
-DEF is most useful in the early levels. Despite the "beginner's luck" mechanic, it's when you'll never be able to slot enough accuracy in all your powers to ensure consistent hits. This gets truer the bigger your team gets, and is especially prevalent in the early 20s levels when beginner's luck goes poof but you still can have slotting shortages. Between say, 10 and 30, -DEF is most desirable (though it remains useful all the time, of course). Once one hits SOs, above 30 IOs and 3-slots-gain levels though, not to mention global set bonuses, accuracy becomes less of an issue.
-RES is also useful at all levels, of course, but when it really shines is late in the game, when every other mission ends in an AV fight, GM hunting becomes a pastime instead of a challenge, and TFs are the prefered way of earning stuff. hitting an AV isn't that hard most of the time (there are exceptions of course) but even if you do hit, if your damage output doesn't beat its regeneration, you can wham it till kingdom come and never get anywhere. -RES can be (and often is, along with -REGEN) the deciding factor between getting stuck and getting the badge.
That's my 2ยข, and I'm more than willing to hear counterarguments, but as far as I'm concerned, I think the secondary effect of Sonic is more profitable in the long term. Meanwhile Rad will be useful right away but less so as you go up in levels. Of course, that's only taking that aspect into consideration. Depending on playstyle and taste, the individual powers, their stats and heck, even their look can make more of a difference.
As far as Leadership goes... It depends what type of team you're on. When there's lot of ranged powers, they can bunch around you and gain the effect. If there's lots of melee, you'll have to go into the fray to help, and that's not a place you want to be. Personally, I've never found them that useful. People tend to wander too much, especially on fast teams, and often don't like having to stick close to one another.
Solo, they're a waste of endurance. Even at the ED cap, all three toggles together will eat close to one endurance a second, so unless you got mad recup, you'll be hard-pressed to chain your other powers (especially with other toggles running.) Even with Cardiac, they remain far too expensive for what they give. Assault solo is nice but hardly needed with out new inherent. Maneuvers is weaker than other def-enhancing pool powers solo, and far more expensive. Tactics is rarely that useful. Vengeance is, of course, useless solo. the slots needed to make them even barely worthwhile would be more useful elsewhere.
For me, I'd rather take Medecine if my Primary had no heal, or powers that help keep ME alive so I can keep the rest of the team alive. Hover, Combat Jump, Stealth, and such are a better use of my power picks. But that's just the way I play.
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Just a bit of advice when it comes to empathy... Don't take the set because of the heals. Take Empathy because of the buffs; they are far more useful in the higher levels. Make sure that you take and slot Fortitude, Recovery Aura, Regen Aura, and Adrenalin Boost. These powers will make it so that you don't have to heal and you can lay down your -RES on everything. (and IMO, Sonic is the much better choice, unless you just want to make an Emp/Rad. There isn't anything wrong with /Rad and you won't be gimped, but -RES is definitely more useful than -DEF)
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Originally Posted by Wanderer
Hello. I'm building a Defender with MIDS. I want this character to be the ultimate support teammate. I'm not interested in having DPS. Let the other ATs handle that. This character merely exists to keep his/her teammates on their feet and fighting. Therefore, the Primary will be Empathy for the Heals.
The question is about which Secondary Powerset would be best. Sonic's attacks do -RES. Rad's attacks do -DEF. I know the difference. -RES lowers their Resistance (no really!) to the damage done, thereby having the bad guy take more damage than they normally would while -DEF makes bad guys easier to hit. Which is preferable? Also, is the Leadership pool worth getting? Somewhere on these forums, someone mentioned that the bonuses for the +DEF from Maneuvers, the +DMG from Assault, and the +THBuff from Tactics really aren't worth the END drain that they cause. I should know . . . My Blaster had all 3 three of them and during combat, my END disappeared quicker than chocolate chip cookies disappear from my cookie jar. I respecced out of it and took the Medicine pool instead. Teammates like it when you can rez them. Any advice will be most appreciated. |
/sonic unless you want something more AoE based. Leadership is worth taking on defenders since they get the biggest numbers from them.
I was deciding on the secondary to take on my new defender on the beta server. I got briefly excited that I would be able to slot achiles's heel on multiple attacks from Rad. Then I realized that would just be ghetto sonic and picked that instead. -Def is useful for including your vet attacks in your attack chain and after that becomes unnecessary, it's less useful.
For a defender Leadership is amazing. I don't have a 50 without at least one leadership toggle, and around half have all three. They are useless on speed runs, but if your group intends to actually kill things occasionally, I don't know of many powers that would be more useful.
Tactics is kind of weak for the same reason -def is, but is still handy if there are pets around. Plus you don't have to hit first to make yourself more able to hit. It's at the bottom of the list.
Maneuvers is strong on a defender and mediocre on anyone else. It also might become useless if there are enough other sources of def.
Assault is good on anyone and unless you have a kin around remains useful.
I like how you aren't focused on damage, but then you want to take the secondary that will give the greatest damage output :P. Anyway, sonic is best if you're looking for contributing the most damage on a full team of 8. And yes, leadership is worth it.
Rad is better for AoE, Sonic is better for ST.
Mind you Rad isn't terrible at ST once you proc it out(see sig).
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Most characters have enough accuracy to hit most any target 95% of the time. That means the -DEF from /Rad comes into play only rarely (when you're dealing with things that have high defense, like Nemesis soldiers with Vengeance on).|
Originally Posted by Wanderer
The question is about which Secondary Powerset would be best. Sonic's attacks do -RES. Rad's attacks do -DEF. I know the difference. -RES lowers their Resistance (no really!) to the damage done, thereby having the bad guy take more damage than they normally would while -DEF makes bad guys easier to hit. Which is preferable?
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The -dmg res from /Sonic comes into play all the time, almost always increasing damage.
The area attacks in /Rad don't work very well together. One's a PBAoE, one's a cone, and one's a targeted AoE. That makes it hard to work a decent AoE attack chain up, because you have to jump around a lot to hit the same spawn with the three AoEs. /Fire (which defenders will get in the next issue), has a targeted AoE, a cone and a click AoE which work much better together. But fire doesn't get a force-multiplier effect like /Sonic does, just some minor DoT. A /Sonic defender will help the team do more overall damage than a /Fire defender will.
If you solo, the cone sleep in /Sonic is very useful, allowing you to run with higher spawn sizes.
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/Fire also doesn't get a -res proc.
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Originally Posted by Rodion
Most characters have enough accuracy to hit most any target 95% of the time. That means the -DEF from /Rad comes into play only rarely (when you're dealing with things that have high defense, like Nemesis soldiers with Vengeance on).
The -dmg res from /Sonic comes into play all the time, almost always increasing damage. The area attacks in /Rad don't work very well together. One's a PBAoE, one's a cone, and one's a targeted AoE. That makes it hard to work a decent AoE attack chain up, because you have to jump around a lot to hit the same spawn with the three AoEs. /Fire (which defenders will get in the next issue), has a targeted AoE, a cone and a click AoE which work much better together. But fire doesn't get a force-multiplier effect like /Sonic does, just some minor DoT. A /Sonic defender will help the team do more overall damage than a /Fire defender will. If you solo, the cone sleep in /Sonic is very useful, allowing you to run with higher spawn sizes. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Wow! That's a lot of info. Thanks!
So, I've decided to go Emp/Sonic. Do I take all of the powers in each powerset? Or are there some that I should skip? I will take Resurrect for sure so I'll have 2 rezzes (I'm taking the Medicine pool as well). Absorb Pain? What do you think? Like it, love it, or hate it?
Also, since I'm planning out my character on MIDs, should I just go with Power Mastery (again) for my Epic Pool, or can someone suggest a better one?
Glad we all could help. I'm interested in the Leadership pros and cons, but I still stand by my opinion : unless you have a well-behaved, mostly ranged team, the toggles are mostly gonna affect YOU, and though useful, they are horrendously expensive for what they provide. However, the only one who can say if you'll find them worthwhile is you, ultimately. 
One detail about Tactics we all forgot to mention is that it provides +perception, which is a godsend against Arachnos Night Widows - they love to Blind you, and short of a yellow inspiration there's no way to counteract that. Which can be a pain since it'll turn off all your offensive toggles like Rad Infection, Darkest Night or Snowstorm. Tactics can help avoid that.
As for power picks : I'd say take all of Empathy, but prioritize. Absorb pain will save your Tankers' life at time, but the side effect on you is dangerous, and until you get to level 30+ the first two heals are usually enough to get by - but at high levels it's NEEDED. Likewise, Clear Mind is great once you run into mezzers, but that doesn't happen regularly until the early 20s, so I'd take Fortitude and maybe Recovery Aura first (YMMV).
I can't stress enough the need to keybind your empathy powers and teammates selections so you can react on the fly. There are numerous threads with tips on that, and it can make all the difference between a decent empath and a GREAT one.
As for Sonic... Depends. As a team-oriented Defender, I'd say you'll need the three ST blasts, Howl, and Screech to debuff res (Howl should be at the least 4-slotted ASAP). Amplify will insure your blasts actually HIT. Shockwave and Siren... Could be taken for when you run solo, but are gonna be next to useless on teams. Dreadful Wail can be taken as a panic button, but since it'll crash your endurance, be VERY careful - you don't want to bottom out on endurance when the team needs your buffs and heals the most. Slot heavily for accuracy - you're not there to damage, you're there to debuff, and that's only if you hit.
If you wanna solo, Shockwave can be useful until you get Siren, letting you Howl on prone targets and get melee mobs out of your face. Just remember that Siren cannot be stacked on bosses due to its damage component.
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There are plenty of powers in blast sets that are very skippable. I'd suggest not taking medicine. Absorb pain is a big Your Mileage May Vary. I'm personally against it. For epics, you should also consider soul mastery from the patron pools. It has a much shorter recharge than power build up.|
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Wow! That's a lot of info. Thanks!
So, I've decided to go Emp/Sonic. Do I take all of the powers in each powerset? Or are there some that I should skip? I will take Resurrect for sure so I'll have 2 rezzes (I'm taking the Medicine pool as well). Absorb Pain? What do you think? Like it, love it, or hate it? Also, since I'm planning out my character on MIDs, should I just go with Power Mastery (again) for my Epic Pool, or can someone suggest a better one? |
I suggest these powers.
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...1BF203784D0AB5
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It sounds like what you really want is controller with empathy as your secondary. Disabling enemies as your first strategy provides much better team support than running straight for the first-aid kit immediately.
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Originally Posted by Wanderer
I want this character to be the ultimate support teammate. I'm not interested in having DPS. Let the other ATs handle that. This character merely exists to keep his/her teammates on their feet and fighting. Therefore, the Primary will be Empathy for the Heals.
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Sonic is technically "better" due to the large amounts of -Resistance.
Issue 21 introduces Beam Rifle, which is a blast set featuring some -Regen. Since that is completely lacking in Empathy, it might be worth consideration.
Radiation is still a very nice power set. My favorite aspect of Radiation is the Tier 3 stun/blast combo.
-Defense gets a bad rap, IMO somewhat unfairly. If you a PUG a lot it is actually somewhat better than it sounds, because most teams these days contain characters scattered across multiple level ranges who either aren't yet fully slotted or are exemped below their normal max performance range.
I agree that a Controller might also be a consideration for you. Illusion/Empathy technically allows you to do very little fighting at all, because the pets do most of it for you.
But really almost any Controller or Defender set will pair servicably. The only ones I'm not particularly crazy about are Electric Blast, Assault Rifle, and Energy Blast.
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Let's walk though this. Do I think I am a bad player? No. Because I don't think I'm a bad player, I don't expect my teammates to due a lot. Because I don't expect my teammates to die a lot, there is no reason to take a 2nd rezz. I'm probably even competent enough to where I can support my teammates using the primary that the game deemed to be good enough to support a team. Because of this, I don't need to use the Med pool at all.|
Originally Posted by Wanderer
I will take Resurrect for sure so I'll have 2 rezzes (I'm taking the Medicine pool as well).
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Now, you may suck bad enough at playing an Emp that this doesn't match up with your thinking and in that case don't play an Emp at all. Or maybe even a defender although FF is like Defender for Dummies.
I will second the controller recommendation based on your like of support and not caring about damage mindset.
Absolutely agreed on Resurrect. You only need the one from your primary and arguably don't need that. I always email my tier 3 & 4 wakie drops to myself, so that I have a quick rez for myself or someone else. You definitely don't need to invest in the Medicine pool as an Emp. Your heals will charge quickly enough.
Not so much agreed on the Controller bit. Empathy is one of those sets that functions noticeably better as a primary than as a secondary. If you really want to be the best buffer/healer, then Defender is what you want.
For the Emp mindset, it helps to think of yourself more as a buffer and less as a healer. Keep Clear Mind on everyone that needs it and Fortitude on those that benefit the most from it. With Adrenalin Boost on the lead meatshield (whatever AT they may be) and your RAs in effect, you won't have to spend much time at all healing or resurrecting.
I levelled an Emp/Psy Defender to 33 during the past weekend (my first Emp). Had a great time playing the character and could easily see it becoming a favorite. I went with Psy for the range, controls and good single-target options (the better to keep unwanted aggro away). The -Recharge doesn't hurt either.
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Also, if you really feel like you want another rez power(for things like Apex maybe), you can get the day job accolade and the invention temp power, both can have up to 10 charges.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Let's walk though this. Do I think I am a bad player? No. Because I don't think I'm a bad player, I don't expect my teammates to due a lot. Because I don't expect my teammates to die a lot, there is no reason to take a 2nd rezz. I'm probably even competent enough to where I can support my teammates using the primary that the game deemed to be good enough to support a team. Because of this, I don't need to use the Med pool at all.
Now, you may suck bad enough at playing an Emp that this doesn't match up with your thinking and in that case don't play an Emp at all. Or maybe even a defender although FF is like Defender for Dummies. I will second the controller recommendation based on your like of support and not caring about damage mindset. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Sonic.
Tho I find Illusion controller an easier Healer. Numbers are abit lower but numbers matters less on Empath than on Sonic/ FF/ Cold/ etc... Group Invis gives defense, and if you are a pure teamplayer you will find Recall Friend with Invis/Resurect VERY usefull. It also drops your aggro generation drasticly. Picking "only" Blind, Decieve, PA, Group Invis (potentially Sup Invis too for the extra def and LotG), Spectral Terror and Phantasm; it gives you the tools to drop buffs and pets and concentrate on your healing.
Deceive (confuse) is an incredible tool to get out of tricky situation using very nasty enemies as a strengh. Confused Sky Raider's FF Gens, Rikti Guardians, DE's Quartz and Cairns or CoT Mages can completely turn the outcome of a fight. Did you know that if you pre-confuse Carnie's Master Illusionist they will summon ALLY Phastasm, 2 illusionist and Dark Servant?
PA is also incredibly powerfull to "MezTank" badass targets like 4pylons LR on STF or other tanker-eating AVs.
Not to mention that both sets are hungry for recharge so its easy to find the way to IO up.
Resurrect with one even-level recharge SO in it is back up in two minutes and fifteen seconds. That should be more than enough. If you three slot it, it's back up in about a minute and a half.
Anybody who needs to resurrect people more often than that is either hopelessly incompetent or playing with suicidal imbeciles.
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Yes, definitely do not get a second rez. Please don't take this too harshly, but taking empathy and the medicine pool basically gives the impression that you are from some other MMO with "pure healers" and want to be one and are not really familiar with the mechanics of CoX.|
Originally Posted by MechaCrash
Resurrect with one even-level recharge SO in it is back up in two minutes and fifteen seconds. That should be more than enough. If you three slot it, it's back up in about a minute and a half.
Anybody who needs to resurrect people more often than that is either hopelessly incompetent or playing with suicidal imbeciles. |
I second people saying that it sounds like you want to play a controller with empathy as a secondary. "I'm not interested in having DPS. Let the other ATs handle that. This character merely exists to keep his/her teammates on their feet and fighting. " It sounds like ultimately a controller might fit your desired role better. Rather than playing a defender and ignoring the secondary, you could play a controller and pay attention to both primary and secondary.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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The empathy numbers are a little better on defenders, but you're only looking at half of the character. The damage that controllers can prevent with their primary more than makes up for the difference in empathy numbers.|
Originally Posted by streetlight
Not so much agreed on the Controller bit. Empathy is one of those sets that functions noticeably better as a primary than as a secondary. If you really want to be the best buffer/healer, then Defender is what you want.
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The original poster wanted an optimum team support character with little or no emphasis on damage powers. In that context, I believe the controller with an empathy secondary fits his stated desires better than a defender. But I won't be offended whichever path he chooses.
On the resurect point, the only time you should need a second rez power is if your team is getting slaughtered (which can certainly happen on big missions if the tanker bites it, even with good players.) That's a fairly specific situation. HOWEVER, if you're concerned about that, I'd like to recommend you have a look at Dark Miasma instead of Empathy. I know, it's not a pure "support" set, it's a debuffing one. But it features the one and only "mass resurect" power in CoX, along with a PBAoE heal that blows Empathy's one out of the water (so long as you have a mob target to use it on...)
If your concern is "to keep your teammates alive and fighting" and not just "be a he4lorz" then a debuff set like Dark Miasma can be just as effective as empathy, just in a very different way - your team won't be stronger, but the enemies will be weaker and easier to defeat. I have a Dark/Sonic defender myself and it's become my main toon in no time - it made the difference twice on a team getting through a +3/x6 mission only to get slaughtered on the next one once I left. With my current, cheap-and-easy build, I can heal anyone close to me for over 500 hp every 5 seconds - that's about half a health bar for anything but a high-level brute or tanker. And my debuffs mean I can even go briefly in melee range to heal the tanker(s)/scrapper(s)/brute(s), something an empath should never do.
It takes some getting used to, it's not an obvious "big green number/flashy auras" set, but it gets the job done admirably. And it doesn't need the medecine pool to make you a good healer too, or the best reanimator in the game. And remember, Controllers don't get to play with THAT set - gotta love the elitist feel of it. (at least until Freedom lands....)
Otherwise, there's always Kin/, but I'll leave that to those who play it more regularly than I do. 
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Would you be willing to post your cheap-and-easy build please? I'd like to take a look at it. |
Originally Posted by Netphenix5
I have a Dark/Sonic defender myself and it's become my main toon in no time - it made the difference twice on a team getting through a +3/x6 mission only to get slaughtered on the next one once I left. With my current, cheap-and-easy build, I can heal anyone close to me for over 500 hp every 5 seconds - that's about half a health bar for anything but a high-level brute or tanker. And my debuffs mean I can even go briefly in melee range to heal the tanker(s)/scrapper(s)/brute(s), something an empath should never do.
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nooo
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Originally Posted by Wanderer
(I'm taking the Medicine pool as well)
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You know, I never really tried a character with a Dark power before. I am intrigued by the possibility. So much so that I've already created a costume and thought up a name for her. Again, if you would be so kind as to post your cheap-and-easy build, along with tips on how to properly run her, I'd be most grateful as I feel myself being drawn to the Dark Side. |
Originally Posted by Netphenix5
I have a Dark/Sonic defender myself and it's become my main toon in no time - it made the difference twice on a team getting through a +3/x6 mission only to get slaughtered on the next one once I left. With my current, cheap-and-easy build, I can heal anyone close to me for over 500 hp every 5 seconds - that's about half a health bar for anything but a high-level brute or tanker. And my debuffs mean I can even go briefly in melee range to heal the tanker(s)/scrapper(s)/brute(s), something an empath should never do.
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Btw, is Howling Twilight a rez for one fallen ally or every fallen ally within range? I read the power's description in MIDs, and the way it's worded, it sounds like a group rez.
Hello. I'm building a Defender with MIDS. I want this character to be the ultimate support teammate. I'm not interested in having DPS. Let the other ATs handle that. This character merely exists to keep his/her teammates on their feet and fighting. Therefore, the Primary will be Empathy for the Heals.
The question is about which Secondary Powerset would be best. Sonic's attacks do -RES. Rad's attacks do -DEF. I know the difference. -RES lowers their Resistance (no really!) to the damage done, thereby having the bad guy take more damage than they normally would while -DEF makes bad guys easier to hit. Which is preferable?
Also, is the Leadership pool worth getting? Somewhere on these forums, someone mentioned that the bonuses for the +DEF from Maneuvers, the +DMG from Assault, and the +THBuff from Tactics really aren't worth the END drain that they cause. I should know . . . My Blaster had all 3 three of them and during combat, my END disappeared quicker than chocolate chip cookies disappear from my cookie jar. I respecced out of it and took the Medicine pool instead. Teammates like it when you can rez them.
Any advice will be most appreciated.