-DEF vs -RES


Amy_Amp

 

Posted

Wondering which is better to have, powers which have -Defense effects or -Damage Resistance effects? Assuming both are desirable yet only one can be selected, which would be most beneficial to myself (the wielder) and the team environment? I'm thinking -Damage Resistance but would welcome any discussion on the matter. Thanks!


 

Posted

-res is indeed more desirable in virtually all cases. The main reason is simple: -def can be replicated by anything that causes you to hit your target, and once you have a 95% chance to hit your target you no longer gain anything from additional -def. On top of this, -def effects are more commonly available to players, being built right into many attack and control sets and nearly all debuff sets. -res is available in debuff sets, sonic blast, tanker bruising, venom grenade, and some epic powers, usually but not always with relatively poor uptime or effectiveness in the latter.

In addition to the difference in rarity, though, -res is beneficial to stack all the way up to the -200% cap, a very difficult number to reach on your average pick up team. Thus the rule of thumb would be "more -res is always better." As if this weren't enough, -res and +dam are not only not redundant like -def and +tohit are, they go fantastically well together. A single kineticist can kick most of the team up to the damage cap and at that point there is no further benefit from +dam. Bring some -res to the party and you can still as much as triple the team's damage from there.

As sad as the situation is for -def, it does have one trick up its sleeve: most -def powers accept the achilles' heel chance for -res proc. What a pyrrhic victory.


 

Posted

-res. [/thread]


 

Posted

It actually think it's a somewhat complicated question, because -Defense and -Resistance rarely show up independently.

Take a look at Radiation Blast and Sonic Attack, which debuff Defense and Resistance respectively. Some people might conclude that Sonic completely outperforms Radiation based only on the secondary effect. In practice this isn't entirely true because the powersets don't match up 1:1. It's also a matter of degree; IMO the two sets are more evenly matched on Blasters than on Defenders because as the amount of -Resistance decreases other factors become more competitive. On Defenders I would go so far as to say Sonic Attack is overpowered, if only in the sense that it rarely makes sense to play anything else from a powergaming perspective.

Basically, it depends on what power or powerset you are asking about.


 

Posted

-Res.

Reasons are that once your chance to hit is capped vs enemies, further -Def does nothing (on the other hand, it's really, really hard for a team to get enemies down to the -Res cap); and that there are other, arguably more reliable ways to cap your chance to hit vs enemies (accuracy buffs, tohit buffs).


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laevateinn View Post
-Res.

Reasons are that once your chance to hit is capped vs enemies, further -Def does nothing (on the other hand, it's really, really hard for a team to get enemies down to the -Res cap); and that there are other, arguably more reliable ways to cap your chance to hit vs enemies (accuracy buffs, tohit buffs).
The other reason is a psychological one that has been mentioned often before: People will take care of their own accuracy/tohit problems. You had better bet that the average person is going to be pissed off enough about seeing miss after miss that they will make sure by themselves they can hit things well enough. You can still help them do more damage though.


"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator

 

Posted

-def is rarely helpful. -res is always helpful. It's that simple.


I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.

 

Posted

-Def still has a place against +4 and AVs.


Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.

 

Posted

I'd say -Res. Most enemies in the PvE game aren't able to muster enough defense for it to be a significant form of protection solely on its own, and in the mechanics for defense in PvP (cue announcement that PvP is broken) render its effects far less useful than resistance.

Now, I'd never turn -Defense AWAY if it was offered, but if given the choice between one of the two, I'd choose -Resistance. It's one of the reasons I love seeing Rad/Sonic defenders so much. They can utterly debilitate an enemy group with the primary, including -Res debuffs, and then you throw in the magnificent -Res debuffs which come standard with Sonic Blast.

Same thing goes for the Incarnate procs. There is a reason that 90% of Integration Powers in use are Reactives, especially with AoE-centric characters.


Too many alts to list.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psylenz View Post
-Def still has a place against +4 and AVs.
Actually in that case -res is far preferable, at least for AVs. They resist -def in the neighborhood of 85%, -res is not included in AV resistance. +4s will reduce the effectiveness of both debuffs by the same amount due to purple patch. I'd still far prefer -res in that case as well, simply because I insure that my builds have 95% final to-hit chances against +3. I view fighting +4s as some temporary step to getting a level shift.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
It actually think it's a somewhat complicated question, because -Defense and -Resistance rarely show up independently.

Take a look at Radiation Blast and Sonic Attack, which debuff Defense and Resistance respectively. Some people might conclude that Sonic completely outperforms Radiation based only on the secondary effect. In practice this isn't entirely true because the powersets don't match up 1:1. It's also a matter of degree; IMO the two sets are more evenly matched on Blasters than on Defenders because as the amount of -Resistance decreases other factors become more competitive. On Defenders I would go so far as to say Sonic Attack is overpowered, if only in the sense that it rarely makes sense to play anything else from a powergaming perspective.

Basically, it depends on what power or powerset you are asking about.
(Emphasis mine)

I would actually argue the opposite. That all other Defender secondaries give up too much damage for their debuffing component.

Sonic blast provides debuffing to benefit the team, and increases it's own damage at the same time. All other sets provide debuffing to benefit the team, but are stuck dealing crap for damage. (Except sets like Archery (plus a couple others), which don't even provide any meaningful debuffing.)

Sadly the recent addition of a solo/duo/barely-there-on-a-trio damage buff to Vigilance means that it's highly unlikely this issue will ever get addressed. I can't even call it a "Small team" buff with a straight face. Small team is 3 or 4. You get nothing for 4 people. You get a whopping 10% for 3. Stop the presses.


@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too

 

Posted

I agree and at the same time don't expect any changes. You could always make a hero corruptor if you want to go the other route. You can't have it both ways.


My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oathbound View Post
(Emphasis mine)

I would actually argue the opposite. That all other Defender secondaries give up too much damage for their debuffing component.

Sonic blast provides debuffing to benefit the team, and increases it's own damage at the same time. All other sets provide debuffing to benefit the team, but are stuck dealing crap for damage. (Except sets like Archery (plus a couple others), which don't even provide any meaningful debuffing.)

Sadly the recent addition of a solo/duo/barely-there-on-a-trio damage buff to Vigilance means that it's highly unlikely this issue will ever get addressed. I can't even call it a "Small team" buff with a straight face. Small team is 3 or 4. You get nothing for 4 people. You get a whopping 10% for 3. Stop the presses.
Nope it's not much. But at that time you either have additional Damage dealers or additional buffers/debuffers to make the difference anyways.

To the OP. -Resist is just better.

As said previously by others, I get enough ACC/+To Hit in my build to make -Defense not all that important.

However, that -Def component in abilities is nice in that you can slot a -Resist Proc (except for Crippling Axe Kick which needs to be allowed to slot the Defense Debuff just for that proc imo).


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection