Defender Primary Balance Suggestion

I would tend to disagree, particularly when its also perception being debuffed. For me, Flash Arrow is a tohit debuff in teams, and a -perception power while solo, for the most part. -perception is only situationally useful in teams, and the situations are specialized. But -perception is much more useful solo, and it does mechanically add a significant increase in options. Particularly at lower levels I found it made divide and conquer much easier. Aggro isn't as simple as its being described here. Flash arrow can significantly delay critters detecting and choosing to shoot at you. It can make pulling and single target isolation temporarily easier. Because the power's design has to be viewed across the entire leveling spectrum, the devs are extremely unlikely to dismiss either the autohitting nature of the power or the perception debuff out of hand and I don't see an obvious way to convince them to do so.

Most of the other suggestions I'm still working through, because I still don't see where the "balance" part is coming from yet: I'm having to reverse engineer the thought behind why things are being set the way they are. One rule I think you're attempting to follow which may cause problems for you is that there actually is no rule that says every variant of a power must be similar or identical to all other variants. That is *sometimes* true and sometimes deliberately false. The devs tend to balance powersets as sets first, and tweak the individual powers second.

For example, using an out of domain example, there is no rule that says SR passives must be stronger, weaker, or identical in strength to Invuln passives. Those powers serve different purposes in those sets. Applied to defender changes, Flash Arrow has the strength it has for a number of overlapping reasons: its mechanics, its place in the set, its effects combined with the other powers, its intent relative to the powerset's overall intent, constraints placed on it by other balance concerns, etc. Saying its safe for Flash Arrow to be in the neighborhood of, say, Fearsome stare, is dangerous. Fearsome stare only provides an example of a power with arguably stronger effects in certain areas, which only means such a power isn't totally unacceptable to the devs. But the devs may decide its unacceptable for Trick Arrow.

My question is still: do all these changes bring the primaries in closer balance with each other, or do they just buff individual powers that appear individually lacking. The latter is something the devs are cautious about, because without powerset constraints it promotes power creep.

There are so many changes in here it may take days to untangle them all. Part of the problem is that they are essentially all buffs. This means even if I think powerset X lacks relative to powerset Y, that prior knowledge is inapplicable here because both X *and* Y are being altered, and I'm having to compare altered sets to altered sets and then to the rest of the game.

I plan to do exactly this if this goes well and we move on to ranged blast sets.

In my opinion, yes (though of course that would be my opinion). With these changes, trick arrow moves slightly closer to being among the top tier of debuffing sets, sonic resonance ceases to be a mediocre set, and poison actually becomes a viable option. All other sets gain a greater variety in power options as weak powers have been brought up to average and overly situational powers have been made more useful, or at the very least not counter-intuitive in the case of intangible powers.

Whoa, yeah...that would be WAY too high in my opinion and way out of line. 20% debuff for 20 seconds on a 30 second recharge could be easily stacked to provide a perma 40% debuff which would exceed rad and dark's -resistance debuffs. Sets that are intended to provide debuffs. I definitely cannot support that change.

And I think that would support my claim about the original paradigm. Empathy and Forcefields were the original buff sets (for survival at least, kin is a buff set, but isn't really targeted at survival). Remember that sonic wasn't added until later.

Several things. I wasn't concerned about the changes making forcefields obsolete. You aren't taking anything away from FF, just adding new things. My concern is about making other debuffing sets obsolete, if you try to bring the buffing sets into line with the existing debuffing sets.

I also don't think cold should necessarily be the standard that you are comparing other sets to, as I think cold is likely overpowered as is. Having buffs that are that strong combined with debuffs that are that strong is a bit much. I don't think I can get behind creating another cold.

I could get behind these changes and even the -to-hit and -damage in force bubble. That would help it stand out more from cold. It's mostly the -resistance that just doesn't sit well with me, especially at the magnitudes being suggested.

I'm a little confused by this. I don't deny that Freezing Rain and Sleet may be overpowered, but as they currently work they are actually weaker than designed, due to a bug with lingering debuffs. I'm curious what bug you think makes them stronger than intended? Do you think they're not supposed to stack?

Not to mention the one likely to generate the most rage.

I explicitly said non-stackable. It'd never be more than 20% -Resist.

Also, because of the pseudopet thing, Dark can and regularly does stack its -Resist. Tar Patch lasts for 45 seconds and has a recharge of 90 seconds; my D3 regularly has two of them out at once

It might've been the original paradigm, yeah, but that was six years ago and experience has shown that the original paradigm (if that's what it was) didn't work out so well.

Even with the changes, it won't be as good a debuffer as Cold or Dark or Rad or Storm. It's got better buffs, so it makes up. I am willing to hear other suggestions, though... This is meant to be the starting point for discussion, not the end.

Even if it doesn't stack? -20% isn't a huge amount. My reason for something besides -ToHit and -Damage is that these are defensive debuffs and Forcefield already has the defense side of things down pat; when it comes to helping the team offensively it has very little to provide (Repulsion Bomb is really it).

Hm...

Rad isn't either, but I think it is looking at powers that could use some tweaking. Even as somebody who has played more than my fair share of Kins, I draw blanks when trying to think of tweaks for the set. It would be nice if there were IOs for Siphon Power and Fulcrum. I would say generally speaking people take 7-8 of the powers so at least 25% of the powers from one of their sets don't take IOs.

My logic is that when a control-ish power shows up in a Defender primary it's not "Control," its a Defense method. It's taking the place of what would otherwise be a buff/debuff ability. I think Defenders should be around as good at using Thunderclap and EMP Arrow as a Controller is. They still would not get the Overpower ability (note: Controllers typically don't either with their secondaries). What keeps Defenders in check is that they don't have access to the major AoE Control powers anyway, so while they might be sort of comparable in some capacities, they would still not be bringing the house down. I don't think this would completely repair Trick Arrow but it would at least start it down the right path.

They should be, but we missed them. Kinetics repel should have the end cost reduced and the cost per target removed, and EM Pulse should have its end crash removed.

From playing TA as both a defender and controller the thing the devs have to do is make sure that any change that they make to TA for defenders doesn't unduly overpower the set as a secondary for controllers.

Trick Arrow's biggest problem is that it has a LOT of small and medium sized debuffs. In order to get an average amount of benefit from the set you need to use most of them each spawn. TA has fairly fast animations but even with that considered, to lay down Flash Arrow > Glue Arrow > PGA > Acid Arrow > Disruption Arrow > Ice Arrow takes 7.98 seconds. Once you've done that you have to reapply, PGA every 20 seconds, Acid Arrow every 20 seconds, Glue Arrow every 30 seconds, and Disruption arrow every 30 seconds.

There are 2 states the defender will find him or herself in. Teamed and solo. On fast moving teams many spawns won't last the 8 seconds it takes to layer all the every spawn debuffs, which means that much of the benefit of playing a TA defender is moot. All you will contribute is one or 2 debuffs and a couple of anemic attacks before it is time to move on. Further, when you get to the next spawn those debuffs may not even be recharged with out slotting sets that provide recharge bonuses.

Solo you have a similar problem. You have to spend too much of your time debuffing and you don't get enough time to attack. It can take you 2 - 3 minutes to solo a spawn and 25% of your animation time is going to be (re)applying debuffs.

Increasing durations (and in the case of some powers, radius) will solve the solo problem. Reducing animation times will provide the same amount of relief to both cases (I see absolutely no reason that any of the primary powers should have differing animation times. You are, after all, pulling a single arrow, of identical size, out of exactly the same place and firing for each and every power)

The problem I see with most of your suggestions is that they are "power non-sequitors" from my point of view.

Most of your proposed solutions don't really solve the set's problems nor do they really fit the theme of the set.

A more thematic solution for this problem would be to make the net bigger. A radius 10, 5 target cap for this power would be a better fit. This wouldn't over power the controller version since the majority of controller sets have an AoE immob as their tier 2 primary.

The real problem with Flash Arrow on teams is that you rarely can get it applied before the team has aggroed the next spawn. This renders the -perception part moot and provides no Alpha strike mitigation. A 30% increase on the base range of this power would make a difference as you could then potentially get it fired before the next spawn is aggroed (and you would still be out of perception range when it hits rather than in perception range with any stealth you may have supressed). This change doesn't make it any better for the controller and has no real effect on the solo game.

Again this isn't really thematic. The biggest problem with Glue arrow is that it is a targetted AoE with a 60' range. If you fire it on the mob in the front of the spawn it only has to wade through 1/2 of the power's diameter before it's free. Even at the -run speed cap 1/2 of the spawn can be out of the area of the glue before it has expired let alone before it's recharged again. This power should be changed to a non-targeted AoE so that the entire diameter of the debuff patch can be used rather than 1/2 of it. If you really want to buff it you could make it web evelope-ish and have any targets that are in the area of effect at the moment the glue hits be affected by a 10 second mag 3 immobilize. Making those 2 changes would keep the spawn in the other debuffs from TA's primary for most, if not all, of their durations.

Not all that thematic and while it is a decent buff for the defender it's likely too much for the controller. Ice Arrow should be a scale 1 damage power in addition to it's being a hold (it is an arrow after all, and isn't that the reason there is no "healing arrow"?).

Changing any of the mez magnitudes and durations of any of the TA powers makes the controller version "too good" once the controller modifiers are applied.

I've never understood the logic behind sleep in PGA. Yes I get that they are standing there choking but I don't understand why hitting them suddenly makes them stop choking. The -damage component makes sense but I've always thought that PGA should be a larger radius, toxic DoT power. Making that change would improve things more for the defender version and not benefit the controller version as much.

I agree mostly with this. Increasing the duration for the defender while keeping the lower version for the controller would be thematic and keep the controller version from being better than the defender version. It would also have the advantage of reducing the amount of animation time a solo TA defender needs to use.

I don't believe this needs to be done either. A slight decrease to the recharge time and slight increase to the duration coupled with making the target cap 16 is all this power really needs and again benefits the defender more than the controller (since the controller version should keep it's current recharge, duration, and target caps to compensate for having the same debuff values)

I still think this is too much. There is no reason to remove the self -Recovery since the defender "should" be benefitting from vigilence while the controller does not. I will agree that the recharge is too long and should be reduced to 4 minutes (but only for the defender version)

In all fairness (and good conscience) ... I have a hard time conceptualizing why these two powers should have such a wild discrepancy in effectiveness of their Debuffs. The Endurance Cost is almost certainly driven by the Animation Time discrepancy (Entangling Arrow's is shorter, hence the lower Endurance Cost), and is therefore "fair" even though it might not appear so at first blush.

Counter-proposal.

Leave the To-hit Debuff as is ... and add a Tanker Taunt-ish styled

• Range -75% for 15s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs][Effect does not stack from same Caster]

... and maintain the Does Not Aggro.

Also ... add a +14.5s Placate (mag 3) after 0.5 seconds (33% chance) (PvE and PvP)

What about giving Flash Arrow a "Sniper Range" of 150 ft?

Counter-proposal.

Increase the Recharge Debuff from 20% to 40%.

Apply an Anti-Conserve Power Debuff which makes all Powers used by affected Targets cost MORE Endurance than normal (ie. everything takes more "effort" to do). Possible balance point: amount of increase in Endurance Cost "normalized" to Recharge Debuff strength. A power that costs 10 END and recharges in 10 seconds, when debuffed costs 15 END and recharges in 15 seconds (for purposes of illustrating principle, if not proposed values).

10 seconds, not 8.

Counter-proposal.

Make Poison Gas Arrow work in a manner analogous to Static Field in Electric Control via a psuedopet pulsing a Sleep Effect. Guaranteed Mag 3 Sleep only (does not self stack), no other Debuffs (ie. remove Damage Debuff). Does Not Aggro (like Flash Arrow). Conceptualize as being more of a (self-)repeating Mass Hypnosis (ala Mind Control).

The only thing Acid Arrow needs is MORE RADIUS! 8 ft Radius? REALLY?!? Try 25 ft Radius ... to match Disruption Arrow.

If a Regeneration Debuff is deemed necessary for the Trick Arrow Set, Acid Arrow is the place to put it, not Poison Gas Arrow (think about it).

-30% Resistance (All) and -30% Defense (All) ... would be ... nice ... if we could get it.
Transfer Damage Debuff to Foes effect from Poison Gas Arrow to Disruption Arrow.

As for any kind of "something extra" for Disruption Arrow to make it "special" in some way ... I'd say add another power to the Pseudopet that operates like a PBAoE (around the Pseudopet) Target *Friends* "Clarity"-ish Buff on a 5s Activation cycle in a 25 ft Spherical Radius that offers:

• -3.5 Mag Stun, Sleep, Immobilize, Held, Confused, Terrorized for 5.25s (does not stack from same caster)
• +35% RES(Stun, Immobilize, Held, Confused, Terrorized) for 5.25s (does not stack from same caster)
• +70% RES(Sleep) for 5.25s (does not stack from same caster)

This way Disruption Arrow "hurts" the enemy (through Resist and Defense Debuffing) ... while at the same time "disrupting" any enemy Mez Effects on you and your Team/League within the Disruption Field, freeing you to act. This would allow Disruption Arrow to be used both offensively and defensively, increasing its utility.

Maybe not, in the grand scheme of things ... but it *IS* thematically "appropriate" to the nature of the power (even if the Recovery Debuff isn't "useful" because it doesn't have anything to stack with). The 300 second Recharge however could be dropped to 180 ... to match that of Oil Slick Arrow (to give the set a "reliable" native ignition source).

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

That's an interesting idea, and one I like.



Also an interesting alternate solution. I've always liked the idea of applying -Enhancement(Endurance Reduction) effects as an alternative/supplement to endurance draining (I think ArcanaVille came up with it first, way back when). My only issue with it is that it takes a long time to have a noticeable impact, and part of the problem Trick Arrow has is that it moves slowly to layer its debuffs.


While I personally think that's a good idea, it might be considered too much a control power. Leaving it similar to Poison Gas Trap is probably for the best.

I can't believe I forgot about the radius on this power. It really is horrid, and a huge hit against the set.

We're talking about the self -recovery, not the endurance drain on the target. And we won't get this power's recharge dropped, not when control aoe holds are 180 seconds.

I was loathe to touch Kinetics and Rad, because they're already such strong performers that entire FotMs and SuperTeams are built around them. I didn't think it was pragmatic to put them on the list... I originally didn't have Storm or Dark, either, for similar reasons, but they got put in for completeness' sake. We should add in Kin and Rad as well, just to have a complete list.

Most sniper ranged powers get a longish interrupt and a longer animation. This would defeat the purpose....

Most (true) Sniper powers also do damage ... unlike Flash Arrow ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

The original Post was thoughtfull and put together well.
I hope that the developers consider these suggestions.

My experience with Empathy in particular makes me willing to throw in my 2 pennies on these suggestions.

The suggestion for resurrection is very interesting and I like it. However, it doesnt do very much to help strengthen Empathy in the solo game, nor improve (a.k.a reduce) the amount of time spent rotating buffs).

Clear Mind is definitely a case for improving Empathy. The argument regarding stacking status protection for certain AV fights has been used alot, and personally, this is more of an argument to change said AV rather than CM. What would be more helpful for Empathy is to grant the set the same benefit that FF and Sonic currently have, which is self status protection. Change Clear Mind to a PBAoE power which affects the caster and all within a certain radius. Bump the cost and recharge somewhat, and Empathy is fixed IMHO.

Although I like the idea of reducing the recharge on Recovery Aura, I would like to see BOTH auras dropped down to 360sec. If that meant that their effectiveness also was lowered, so be it. Being able to make them Perma SHOULD be possible. The original recharge when the game launched was shorter, and it was changed way back then because of how this could be abused with 6-slotted recharge and multiple empaths. So make it Not-Stackable with itself or other empaths, but allow it to be perma (at 200% recharge or more). But again, if these Auras were left alone and CM was made a PBAoE which affected the Empath, I would consider the set balanced for solo and team play.

***Another option suggested by someone else in the past would be the following***
Leave CM as is, reduce the recharge on both auras to 360sec, but make them both "unstackable", and finally, add certain status protections and/or debuff resistances to the auras, so that the caster and his allies get additional mezz protections. This would involve the least impact on the cottage rule.

Recovery Aura could grant protection from any of the following; Slow, Endurance Drain, Sleep, Hold, Confuse etc...
Regen Aura could grant any of the following; Stun, Knockback, Regen Debuff, Resist Debuff, Defense Debuff, Fear, etc...

Great work Garent and Diellan !

I don't really understand what you mean by "thematic", Miladys Knight. I don't think that Trick Arrow's theme is "too long of a recharge".

Ah! Great idea. Years ago, -range occured to me (or someone else mentioned it and I stole it) but I didn't recall it during our brainstorming. Thanks for the feedback on TA from you and other people. I gave out the call for help in improving that area and you guys did not disappoint.

(above post clipped)

I completely agree with you that empathy should have status protection of some kind. It's an (almost) completely reactive set that needs to be unmezzed and capable when things go bad. However, we had to limit ourselves to things we knew the devs at least had a chance of accepting. Black scorpion recently said that he doesn't think that the single target mez protection powers should be given AoE power. Not something I agree with, but that's the end of the debate right there.

As for regeneration aura, it's actually an EXTREMELY powerful buff. It's pretty much instant healing, except it doesn't have reduced power from healing enhancements like instant healing does. I'm sure a lot of people would like to have it be a less powerful, but perma, buff, but the developers are really mindful of removing functionality that players are used to, and I think a lot of people would miss the ability to have god-mode regeneration aura for a small amount of time.