Remove the damage delay from Lift/Levitate
By
Aura_Familia,
Posted on: 2011-05-06 15:02 in Suggestions and Ideas
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Let's not go into what happens when you slot for higher KU in those powers.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
This is real physics, not a movie. I don't care how convinced you are you're being shot, you can't give yourself a hysterical bullet wound and cough up blood.
There's not enough data to find that number. Plus enemies fly the same distance whether they're a 5-foot tall flesh and blood hellion or a 7-foot tall steel and plastics Freak tank. But if I had to put a value on it, I'd say "enough force over a wide enough area to cause scale .8 smashing damage and give you 1.5 seconds of air time." |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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This is a game, not real life. Or are you next going to push for high damage on *each* landing someone makes while superjumping?|
Originally Posted by Vanden
This is real physics, not a movie.
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See, this is what I mean. You're *so* incensed by damage taking place about two seconds (approximately when most even level enemies are going to "land") into the power - but I bet you're *fine* with superjumping doing no damage on its own - even though you "fall" from much higher up. I don't care how much control you have, if you're looking at damage from falling from, oh, 10-15 feet up, falling *from higher than many buildings* should do more damage.
Or you're fine with my character healing your completely-human character by setting them on fire - not just stopping bleeding (cauterization) but making you perfectly healthy by BURNING you to health, or healing their knife/bullet/caltrop/fire wounds by setting off unnamed radiation near them, or making you tougher and able to do more damage by making you cold. Or setting your head on fire so you can't be confused. (Now, admittedly part of that probably IS realistic - if you're sleeping and I light your head on fire, you're not likely to stay asleep.)
Or, hey, someone being able to just up and fly - taking no damage fom a sudden liftoff - with no damage whatsoever. Or being able to perform a Knockout Blow (lifting someone just as high into the air as Levitate) while taking no damage yourself.
You're fine with all that *and more,* but... oh my god, the enemy you used lift on takes damage two seconds into the power!
I'm pushing for the damage to happen at the start of the power because of quality and professionalism. I'm justifying the thematics of the change with physics.
I'm not saying it should move because that's how real physics works. Having the damage happen because of the ground impact is also perfectly thematic and physically accurate, but ragoll physics have messed that up so it doesn't look right. Plus, these are the only two powers in the game among dozens that cause knockback where an impact with the ground causing damage is simulated.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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No?|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I'm pushing for the damage to happen at the start of the power because of quality and professionalism. I'm justifying the thematics of the change with physics.
I'm not saying it should move because that's how real physics works. |
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Originally Posted by vanden
This is real physics, not a movie.
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| Having the damage happen because of the ground impact is also perfectly thematic and physically accurate, but ragoll physics have messed that up so it doesn't look right. |
And yes, I edited and added more while you typed this. Waiting for justification for all that other stuff. I mean, me burning you to health goes against *real* chemistry and *real* medicine, too.
I'll try to simplify it for you.
"A should change to B because of C. This would not violate X because of Y."
DOES NOT EQUAL
"A should change to B entirely because of Y."
A = Damage after delay in powers
B = Damage immediately in powers
C = Quality
X = Suspension of disbelief
Y = Physics
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Now to play a bit of devil's advocate for Vaden, I still want to know, if the damage from Levitate and such are supposed to be purely from hitting the ground, shouldn't knockback enhancments, which would increase the height which they fly and fall affect damage.
And how are flying Enemies affected when there's not even a -fly component which causes them to hit the ground?
But ultimately, this might mean that these powers should deal two ticks of damage. one from the throw, and another from the 'drop'.
but now i'm just nitpicking and experiencing a 'fridge logic' moment.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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That's actually a fairly good thematic argument for changing the damage and -Fly to happen at launch. |
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Now to play a bit of devil's advocate for Vaden, I still want to know, if the damage from Levitate and such are supposed to be purely from hitting the ground, shouldn't knockback enhancments, which would increase the height which they fly and fall affect damage.
And how are flying Enemies affected when there's not even a -fly component which causes them to hit the ground? |
Since the point of a Devil's advocate is to take the opposing viewpoint, but instead you've managed to agree with me, unfortunately you've failed at your goal.
But keep trying, it gets easier. 
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Except you haven't made the case for "quality." And, again, going through and independently testing it, the powers *as is* make for a decent simulation of "You're damaged because you hit the ground," except for in *one* case - where I'm so far above the level of what I'm fighting I wouldn't typically be seeing that *anyway.* |
Originally Posted by Vanden
"A should change to B because of C. This would not violate X because of Y."
DOES NOT EQUAL "A should change to B entirely because of Y." A = Damage after delay in powers B = Damage immediately in powers C = Quality X = Suspension of disbelief Y = Physics |
There's no stated reason how or why someone is lifted into the air. YOU want to make arguments about what forces are applied how that are unsupported anywhere but in your head.
Also, one other that I've held off on - if someone's being damaged for being lifted FROM the ground, as you suppose, how bad do you think it's going to look if they take no damage after hitting it again afterward? Seems to me that you'd have *lessened* the "quality" you claim you're going for.
Edit: I actually have no argument against moving the -fly to the beginning. You're disrupting the target's flight/concentration/air density around them/whatever excuse you have for it. I don't, however, agree that moving the damage to the beginning would be an improvement. I feel it would make it look worse.
For the last time Bill, my arguments about why they would take damage on being lifted are to justify why it would be okay IF THE CHANGE IS MADE. They DO NOT describe how the power is NOW.
I don't know what CoH you're running, but on my screen when I use Lift or Levitate the damage happens a noticeable length of time AFTER the enemy has landed, NOT on impact.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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And I haven't said what you are saying DOES describe how it is now, quite obviously. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
For the last time Bill, my arguments about why they would take damage on being lifted are to justify why it would be okay IF THE CHANGE IS MADE. They DO NOT describe how the power is NOW.
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Again, though, you haven't "sold" it. It would look worse. They get some sort of hit of damage for "some reason" as they go up into the air, and then absolutely nothing as they land on... what, featherbeds made to look like concrete? Bean bags that have replaced the rocks around the Cities? Have the roads been paved with Fluffyum so that nobody falling on them gets hurt?
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| I don't know what CoH you're running, but on my screen when I use Lift or Levitate the damage happens a noticeable length of time AFTER the enemy has landed, NOT on impact. |
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I dunno. Maybe we should ask Knockout Blow or Repel.*|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Again, though, you haven't "sold" it. It would look worse. They get some sort of hit of damage for "some reason" as they go up into the air, and then absolutely nothing as they land on... what, featherbeds made to look like concrete? Bean bags that have replaced the rocks around the Cities? Have the roads been paved with Fluffyum so that nobody falling on them gets hurt?
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*Knockout Blow Makes them fly upwards. They take damage from the punch, but not when they hit the ground after. Repel violently flings them away from you but no damage is done
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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However:|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I dunno. Maybe we should ask Knockout Blow or Repel.*
*Knockout Blow Makes them fly upwards. They take damage from the punch, but not when they hit the ground after. Repel violently flings them away from you but no damage is done |
(A) you're not asking for changes to them, though given the mindset you're showing here, you should, and
(B) I already made a point about Knockout Blow, though it's in it doing no damage to your hand or arm when applying that amount of force (one place where, yes, you *can* unequivocally say what exactly is lifting that individual into the air.)
You *can't* say just what's causing the lift in Lift or Levitate, or if it would cause damage. The target hitting the ground, though, definitely would.
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On this train of thought, also notice how anytime you use a knockdown power, enemies take falls HARD. In my experience in martial arts, taking a fall like most enemies from standing height alone can leave you down for the count for the count for a decent while, possibly even incapacitated if you forgot to breath out. But maybe I'm just a wimp.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I dunno. Maybe we should ask Knockout Blow or Repel.*
*Knockout Blow Makes them fly upwards. They take damage from the punch, but not when they hit the ground after. Repel violently flings them away from you but no damage is done |
That, and realism is tough to implement in this game's universe.
Either way, Vanden's got a bit of a point here. Also, I can vouch that in some my own experiences with levitate and lift, the damage does lag after the fall. Though this maybe the result of them hitting something else on the way down.
Edit: Also, keep in mind that enemies that might be resistant/immune to KB still take damage from these two powers regardless.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Um, no. If I'm arguing against a power simulating damage from hitting the ground, why would I then suggest that another power SHOULD do that?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(A) you're not asking for changes to them, though given the mindset you're showing here, you should, and
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(B) I already made a point about Knockout Blow, though it's in it doing no damage to your hand or arm when applying that amount of force (one place where, yes, you *can* unequivocally say what exactly is lifting that individual into the air.)
You *can't* say just what's causing the lift in Lift or Levitate, or if it would cause damage. The target hitting the ground, though, definitely would. |
One thing that is constant is something happens to the enemy when the power hits, and no matter where their path sends them, that knockback still hit them and the damage being there wouldn't be out of place.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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So, essentially, we should go from a simple power (lift - enemy is, unless they're resistant, subject to a soft control from the knockup, then has damage applied two seconds later) to one that:|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
On this train of thought, also notice how anytime you use a knockdown power, enemies take falls HARD. In my experience in martial arts, taking a fall like most enemies from standing height alone can leave you down for the count for the count for a decent while, possibly even incapacitated if you forgot to breath out. But maybe I'm just a wimp.
That, and realism is tough to implement in this game's universe. Either way, Vanden's got a bit of a point here. Also, I can vouch that in some my own experiences with levitate and lift, the damage does lag after the fall. Though this maybe the result of them hitting something else on the way down. Edit: Also, keep in mind that enemies that might be resistant/immune to KB still take damage from these two powers regardless. |
- If you're immobilized, you take damage right away (you're "lifted" from your legs with force, but your legs don't want to move, so... broken bones?)
- If you're not, assumptions outside of your control are made to just how and why some amount of force is applied to an enemy, causing damage at the beginning.
- To keep it from just "looking bad" (as that's the justification given for the change,) MORE damage would have to be done on falling, unless the enemy is immobilized as mentioned in the first point, in which case you're losing a chunk of damage,
- AND, though he doesn't mention it, we now need another potential source of damage for the times you "lift" someone into a ceiling...
- AND we now have to go through every power case to alter, apply or change where and when damage is applied, with the "fallen" damage now having to take more CPU time on the server to do "impact detection" not just with the ground, but with ceilings and walls (which it currently doesn't do.) for powers like Repel, Repulsion Bubble (which does no damage now, but if you fall into a group of enemies on, it would make contact with them at your falling speed PLUS they'd hit the ground and/or walls,) Force Bolt (damage only at the beginning,) the Nemesis Staff temp powers, Focus (only damages when the power hits, not when the enemy gets knocked back/down) and so forth...
I mean, why only do it to two powers, right?
OR...
We can say "Damage after two seconds is good enough in most cases, giving the player a wide variety of excuses as to the power lifting the target and letting 'ground impact' be the reason for damage," or maybe tweaking the timer on the damage if you think there's some horrible lag and making it (say) 1.8 seconds.
I don't know why you insist on making it so complicated. I think you're just being bull-headed on purpose. Or filibustering?
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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You're the one spouting "quality" and "professionalism" and all this other nonsense, ignoring that you have *no* reason (other than you wanting it) for the damage to be done as the power is applied - as there's *NO VISIBLE SOURCE* for said damage. I can call it illusion on my part, I can say I've reduced the gravity under their feet, I can say I've spread the force over their entire body so they wouldn't take damage, I could say they're *being levitated* (which tends *not* to be suggested as a violent action - though the drop is) - none of which would need to do "apply a damaging force" at the beginning. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
I don't know why you insist on making it so complicated. I think you're just being bull-headed on purpose.
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If you want this done, you should be pushing for all those other changes, too. After all, if I jump down on a group with Force Bubble running, they take two impacts - when the bubble hits, and when they hit the wall/ground. Why are they not taking damage? That doesn't look professional, to use your own argument. Hell, we can put in "That would help some of the lower damage classes, too, as most of them have Force Field!"
I'm expanding your argument to a sensible conclusion for other powers and how they do (or don't do) damage, as well. Or are they not worth the same "quality?"
Bullheaded?
You're being just as bad.
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Are there? Because you say so? I know this will be a shock to you, but it's not your job to filter suggestions to the developers. There's this swarm of forum flies that, without fail, descend to devour any suggestion submitted here as though each is some personal attack against the status quo. Most of that crowd have "Forum Cartel" under their names and are mystified why the rest of us hate coming here and interacting with them.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Second, there are so many *bigger* issues to deal with - yes, even in terms of animation and powers - that this just seems ridiculous to even bring up.
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The suggestions forum is an archive of any and every suggestion. You don't need to sort, rate, categorize or trash it; there are people at Paragon Studios paid to do that and they will do an immensely more fair and balanced job at it than you.
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/fail for bringing up "forum cartel" and post count like it's some sort of conspiracy. Really, that's the best "argument" you could come up with? *snort* |
Originally Posted by Ruff_Tuff_n_Buff
Are there? Because you say so? I know this will be a shock to you, but it's not your job to filter suggestions to the developers. There's this swarm of forum flies that, without fail, descend to devour any suggestion submitted here as though each is some personal attack against the status quo. Most of that crowd have "Forum Cartel" under their names and are mystified why the rest of us hate coming here and interacting with them.
The suggestions forum is an archive of any and every suggestion. You don't need to sort, rate, categorize or trash it; there are people at Paragon Studios paid to do that and they will do an immensely more fair and balanced job at it than you. |
/fail #2 for the whole "see each suggestion as an attack on the status quo" - especially as I agree with others (hell, even agree with a part of this one, if you'd *bother* to read, which you obviously didn't) and make some myself. Pay attention, sonny. (Then again, if you'd actually paid *attention* to post history, you'd see WHY vanden gets mentiond for bringing absolutely trivial, piddly things up like they're the end of the world and why he's getting called on it.)
And if you don't see the gutting of PVP, the lack of base attention, various *actual* power issues and the like as bigger than "I don't like when this power does damage," well, I don't know what to tell you other than to get some perspective.
Plus, if you'll notice, I'm making arguments *with reason* against the change. You? You're just making odd-smelling noises in the wind. Guess what, sparky, I have every right to argue against a change I think will make it worse. If I thought it would make it better, or better with a small tweak, I'd argue *for* it. I play a fair number of Mind and Gravity characters, I'd be exposed to this quite often, and don't want my experience made worse. Don't like that? Too damn bad.
Last, if you don't like it, guess what - YOU aren't employed by Paragon Studios or NCSoft either. Don't take me to task while you believe you can play moderator, hypocrite. See those buttons down on the left side? Use them, or submit a job application to NCSoft.
You keep ignoring key points of my posts that should handily quell concerns before you even raise them.
For example, this latest thing. The powers do damage as if to simulate the enemy crashing into the ground. I say "let's not do that, it doesn't look good even if it works properly." Apparently you take that to mean I'm also in favor of doing the opposite, and going through every power that does knockback and making it do damage because the enemy probably hits something.
I point out that there's precedent for ignoring the way knockback should realistically hurt independent of what caused that knockback and use a simple example from physics to explain how damage at the start could be justified. You see the word "physics" and launch into a list of ways other powers should do damage based on physics, and refuse to see the distinction between using a concept to support a change made for a different reason and using that concept as the actual reason for the change.
I'm done arguing with you Bill. You won't allow yourself to be convinced, and trying to do so is a fool's errand.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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And you refuse to see how your arguments that "justify" doing the damage at the beginning are, frankly, weak. I've given you a number of ways that there would be *no* damage at the beginning, and you ignore those. So don't try painting me as the bad guy here. I've also pointed out that it makes SENSE for the damage to be at the end - you can SEE the person hitting the ground in a way that, frankly, would HURT. Having no damage there counters your own "quality/looks bad" argument for how it is now, but hey, you ignore that as well. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
You keep ignoring key points of my posts that should handily quell concerns before you even raise them.
For example, this latest thing. The powers do damage as if to simulate the enemy crashing into the ground. I say "let's not do that, it doesn't look good even if it works properly. They're also the only powers in the game that do that." Apparently you take that to mean I'm also in favor of doing the opposite, and going through every power that does knockback and amking it do damage because the enemy probably hits something. I use a simple example from physics to explain how damage at the start could be justified. You see the word "physics" and launch into a list of ways other powers should do damage based on physics. You refuse to see the distinction between using a concept to support a change made for a different reason and using that concept as the actual reason for the change. I'm done arguing with you Bill. You won't allow yourself to be convinced, and trying to do so is a fool's errand. |
Go play the martyr if you want, it's as silly as the way the powers would look if done the way you want them.
Leave Lift and Levitate alone. 99.99% of the time in my experience the damage happens when they hit the ground.
There is no reason whatsoever to waste time and resources fixing something that is working just fine the way it is.
Vanden: Has it occurred to you at all that the discrepancy you're seeing on when the damage occurs could be because of LAG, and not because there is anything wrong with the power? I bet not. And I bet that is EXACTLY what is happening, because I tested it myself and Bill is correct. Unless you are so many levels above your target that it launches them off the screen, they take the damage right about as they are hitting the ground.
And Bill is right on another point: If the damage happened at the beginning of the animation, and there was no damage upon them landing, it would look bat guano, pants-on-head STUPID
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Leave Lift and Levitate alone. 99.99% of the time in my experience the damage happens when they hit the ground.
There is no reason whatsoever to waste time and resources fixing something that is working just fine the way it is. Vanden: Has it occurred to you at all that the discrepancy you're seeing on when the damage occurs could be because of LAG, and not because there is anything wrong with the power? I bet not. And I bet that is EXACTLY what is happening, because I tested it myself and Bill is correct. Unless you are so many levels above your target that it launches them off the screen, they take the damage right about as they are hitting the ground. And Bill is right on another point: If the damage happened at the beginning of the animation, and there was no damage upon them landing, it would look bat guano, pants-on-head STUPID |
Agreed. It looks better he way it is now.
/unsigned to the OP's suggestion.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Leave Lift and Levitate alone. 99.99% of the time in my experience the damage happens when they hit the ground.
There is no reason whatsoever to waste time and resources fixing something that is working just fine the way it is. |
^This.
Gravity Control has plenty of issues at the moment crying out for attention. This isn't one of them, it works fine as-is.
But if I had to put a value on it, I'd say "enough force over a wide enough area to cause scale .8 smashing damage and give you 1.5 seconds of air time."
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.