Blasters vs Corruptors vs Defenders


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Post invention system and Going Rogue there was no reason to roll a defender instead of a corruptor. The incarnate trials have changed that. The better Defender buffs are again useful (but only in that part of the game) and can be useful for the entire team and not simply for the squishy blasters.
I agree that BUFFS are coming into play a lot more in the new content, but I disagree that the fact of a fender's DEBUFFS also being more effective than the corr counterparts wasn't enough reason to roll a fender over a corr in any case.
It's really always been more of a question what the specific build design goals for the toon in question were if it should've been a fender or a corr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
Blasters need a buff, plain and simple. The minor damage advantage blasters hold over corruptors and defenders is nothing compared to the buffs/debuffs corruptors and defenders have.
Agreed.
If you look purely at the theoretical raw damage output of a blaster it will outdamage a corr, but if you take into account the debuffs most corrs carry along with them and then look at the effective damage the targets of their attacks actually take post-[all factors that impact this] the corr nearly always seems to outdamage the blaster.

And what does the blaster get in return for this?

....

Err...

*scratches head*

....

*shrugs*

Pretty much, I think the blaster's main use was for rolling something Corr-like (or should I say "CorrLite™"?) blueside pre-Going Rogue.
One thing does need to be said though... pwning mobs like mad when held with new Defiance is awesome. Apart from that: Corr.


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

i'm seeing a lot of arguments in this thread ignoring the blaster secondary. If all things were equal, and your only source of damage for a blaster were its primary, then yeah, corruptors (particularly rad or kin) can out damage and out survive a blaster.

But blasters get a secondary damage set, which allows them, if you build them right, to put out some absolutely insane damage... unfortunately not quite as much as a /kin... but there it is.

I do agree however, that Blasters, as a class, are a bit underpowered... They do about the same single target and area damage a strong scrapper/brute can manage, yet have none of the survivability. they need either a massive damage boost or a massive survivability boost. or a little of both.


 

Posted

Insane damage compared to what? A blaster doesn't do "insanely" more damage than a scrapper, and scrappers (and stalkers) get armor secondaries.

Comparing blasters to corruptors 1:1 is kind of a pointless thing to do, especially in the context of the new trials.

However much damage a blaster does compared to a corruptor, it certainly isn't enough to keep up with how much larger team sizes favor ruptors' debuffs. Maybe on 8 man teams they're relatively even, but on the BAF? Tar patch is "worth" a lot more damage when it's increasing 23 people's damage than it is when it's increasing 7. Blasters benefit from the larger team too, because there are more debuffs for them to take advantage of, but not as much as the corruptor benefits.

This arguably would be okay if blasters had a set devoted to survivability (scrappers are in the same boat, scaling-wise), but they don't. Their secondaries consist of a few melee attacks (that new content is making increasingly difficult to use effectively) and some anemic debuffs and controls. Blasters are effectively using their primary and secondary to do what other damage dealers do with their primary alone.


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Posted

Blasters always seemed more like Scrappers & Brutes to me: focused on the damage that they alone bring to the team. All three can bring a lot of damage, which is nice, but they rarely bring anything more than that. For normal teaming (e.g. everything but AV/GM), damage can be enough.

Corruptors and Defenders can bring additional survivability and/or damage for the entire team, which is a big advantage. Both really shine in difficult teaming (e.g. AV/GM). You won't notice their contributions quite so much when you're steamrolling mobs. You'll also notice them when enemies activate godmode powers.

I would say that Corruptors have an advantage overall. They can throw damage when it's most useful (normal teaming) and force multiply whenever something more is called for. That's just a great combination.


 

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Originally Posted by Laughing Alex View Post
In response though that depends on the player and the defender build. A Very high recharge speed defender/corruptor has little difficulty doubling up fulcrum shift. My kin/energy defender, using ENERGY blast has little difficulty out-damaging some blasters purely because of two factors; I'm willing to move in close range to fulcrum shift up, and at the same time, I have nearly maximized the amount of recharge speed in her. Even some of her incarnate powers are designed around that, some cover for her weakness of low damage mitigation, but in the end, she's able to devastate things like a blaster.
Having played a few kins, I have to say I'm skeptical, and I hope that doesn't seem like I'm just being antagonistic. Later in this post you say:
Quote:
Many blasters don't get that, they get heavier melee attacks in there secondary for a reason; so they can completely annihilate any minions/lieutenents or even lower-damage bosses within seconds or even instantly.
In my experience, I was never killing bosses or LTs instantly. Even a fully damage capped Total Focus didn't really have much oomph. I could log back onto that character for specific numbers when I get home, but compared to spamming Blaze for 300+ every few seconds on my current character while my Flytrap hits for 100% over and over again and my creepers hurl out half a dozen 10-20 damage attacks and set off proc after proc, it's just not comparable. The only thing I miss is the final blasts, but with Judgement even that's not a big deal anymore.

Our perspectives seem to be so different that it feels like the only way we could find common ground is to post videos of our characters in action.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laevateinn View Post
It frees you to take the initiative and play how you like as opposed to following another player about in scripted roles.
This is what it's about for me. Some archetypes fill certain niches very well, and some archetypes can do whatever they want whenever they want. Take a Rad/whatever defender vs. an Illusion/Rad controller. There's no comparison. Or take a blaster vs. a scrapper. The scrapper keeps up in the situations in which the blaster excels, and then does just as well in the situations where the blaster falters.


Blasters were fundamentally broken by the invention system. They're the only class that has two attack trees, and it's just overkill with the amount of recharge everyone has. Back when the game first came out and you had to choose between damage and recharge, having half a dozen fully damage slotted attacks meant something. Nowadays you can build a full attack chain off of three attacks and Blasters suffer because of it.

In spite of that, I've still never seen a defender melt a spawn nearly as fast as blasters. In spite of my complaining proficiency, I have no idea what it would take to fix anything.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
It isn't damage that blasters need, it's survivability.

<snipped a lot of valid arguments as to why blasters are fragile>

In my opinion there's something intrinsically wrong with that from a design standpoint.
Actually, I think the original design was fine. Blasters were glass cannons. I have zero problems w/being fragile dealers of copious amounts of damage. It's just that the other ATs have largely caught up on the damage dealing, and Judgment just makes it worse. If blasters were again *clearly* (yes, I know, some blasters can still outdamage all other ATs, but it's just not that big a margin any more, and not all blaster combos/builds can do this in any case) the damage kings of the game, I wouldn't mind the lack of any built-in defenses.

Having said that, everyone is outputting so much damage anyway, esp at 50, giving blasters yet more damage might break the game even more than it currently is. So maybe the more practical route is to give blasters a bit more innate survivability, though too much and the question will be flipped to, why scrappers?


An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by dave_p View Post
Actually, I think the original design was fine. Blasters were glass cannons. I have zero problems w/being fragile dealers of copious amounts of damage. It's just that the other ATs have largely caught up on the damage dealing, and Judgment just makes it worse. If blasters were again *clearly* (yes, I know, some blasters can still outdamage all other ATs, but it's just not that big a margin any more, and not all blaster combos/builds can do this in any case) the damage kings of the game, I wouldn't mind the lack of any built-in defenses.
There is another issue as well.
Despite the fact Paragon Studios keeps saying the game was not made specifically harder post-i9, IOs are still completely optional and all content bar incarnate content is still doable with SOs there is one major difference in a lot of 'new content' in comparison to the content from before that.
The difference are ambushes. I've never looked into it enough to be able to back this up (seeing as I'm perfectionist when it comes to builds myself and don't bother with SOs at all), so I can't guarantee the truth in this, but it does seem to me that over the course of time content has become increasingly ambush heavy.
For a blaster following the original concept of the AT (which was a more than fine concept, I might add) that can be very troublesome.
All the more since the fact lots and lots of others do go IO / set heavy the use - and especially the proper use - of tanks has decreased a lot.


Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_p View Post
Dammit, you beat me to it. Most of my blasters have RotP as parts of their attack chains. It's kinda annoying when your high def keeps you from dying quickly after a nuke crash though. I'll be sitting in the middle of mostly dead bosses yelling at them, "c'mon, hit me already!"
Self Destruction.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_p View Post
Actually, I think the original design was fine. Blasters were glass cannons. I have zero problems w/being fragile dealers of copious amounts of damage. It's just that the other ATs have largely caught up on the damage dealing, and Judgment just makes it worse. If blasters were again *clearly* (yes, I know, some blasters can still outdamage all other ATs, but it's just not that big a margin any more, and not all blaster combos/builds can do this in any case) the damage kings of the game, I wouldn't mind the lack of any built-in defenses.

Having said that, everyone is outputting so much damage anyway, esp at 50, giving blasters yet more damage might break the game even more than it currently is. So maybe the more practical route is to give blasters a bit more innate survivability, though too much and the question will be flipped to, why scrappers?
Yep heard those arguments before too. The comparison is misleading.

Glass cannon was valid back in the days when blasters actually out ranged stuff and could get a few attacks off before stuff entered melee range with them. The devs patched that "exploit" out.

I personally have no problem with a High damage output low mitigation AT. I have no problem with an AT that's designed to survive through active mitigation. The problem is that in order to do so the blaster has to be able to stay active. Mez means that a blaster is no longer active. Having no built in remedy to that issue is the part of the design that's bad.

The dev reasoning for mez protection is that toons that have it available are designed to be in melee. Tanks, scrappers, brutes all are designed to be in melee. Veats and Doms are also designed to be in melee at least part of the time. They too have reliable mez protection available to them.

The blaster secondary is, in most cases, designed to be used in melee yet the blaster has no real mez pretection available to them. This is contrary to the design purpose of mez protection.


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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
Prior to Issue 20 I would have agreed with you.

Now? After seeing what Interface and Destiny can allow ANYONE to do . . . I don't think it's the same dev team of old.
I wouldn't put it past them. I could still see the devs implement a massive DR-esque mechanic and just leave incarnate abilities exempt.


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Posted

I think the problem with blaster is, that the devs forgot to really adjust them to the game changes they made. Back when the game came out it was like range = defense because most mobs did not have ranged attacks. It was City of Blasters for a reason. They said Scrappers get shields in their secondary because they need to be in melee range where they get attacked. But now that all mobs have nasty range and mezz attacks I really think that blasters vs scrappers are unbalanced.


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Posted

I've always wanted to play a blaster, throwing energy or fire blasts is as iconic for heroes as smashing stuffs face in with super strength.

Problem is the secondary has always felt out of place, like it doesn't really add anything to the blaster and leave's him weak and defenseless.

Corruptors get the same awesome blastiness albeit slightly weaker but with an awesome and useful secondary to go with. Feel that blaster secondary sets should be completely overhauled and given new direction.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razia View Post
I think the problem with blaster is, that the devs forgot to really adjust them to the game changes they made. Back when the game came out it was like range = defense because most mobs did not have ranged attacks. It was City of Blasters for a reason. They said Scrappers get shields in their secondary because they need to be in melee range where they get attacked. But now that all mobs have nasty range and mezz attacks I really think that blasters vs scrappers are unbalanced.
This is actually a really good point. In the day a fire/dev would just toss down caltrops and nuke a whole spawn. Can't do that so much anymore, without a defense build anyway.


@Dysc, on virtue:
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxia View Post
On a good team, with a good tank does a blaster need his own survivability? Not everyone was made to solo equally afterall.
In my experience, I'd lean towards no. However, it depends which qualities we're assigning to a *good* team.

While there are many obvious exceptions, I've found 1 of 2 things to usually be the case:

1. The team is good, and it moves comfortably or rapidly through content.

2. The team isn't so good, and moves slowly and/or with lots of deaths.

In the former team, a good player on a blaster should have no real issues, and/or is likely to have buff support. I'm lucky enough to frequent these teams, but I consider myself to be one among a group of experienced players, so there isn't so much need for personal survivability. We're reinforced by good builds, we know each others play styles, we know the content, and embrace the force multiplication idea. You pretty much have to be trying to throw something off, in order to fail. This makes the answer to your question a pretty comfortable "no".

On the 2nd type of team (usually a PUG), I'd say the answer leans toward "yes"-- but personal survivability doesn't need to be passive power selections or soft defense caps, on paper. For example, I get a feel for the team first, and I'm a lot more selective with power usage to minimize aggro, especially before laying on the AoEs. If the team is just bad, then it's usually in my interest to survive longer than the next player, so I can powerboost veng, and assist in carrying things, while using other tactics to survive. There have been times where after a PB'd veng, I could then set a kill pace quick enough to bring in inspiration to top things off, while allowing me to keep moving, in combination with accolades, phase shifts, etc. or other small perks like the chance for KD, properly timed patron holds, and use of KB on bosses. All of these help to boost survivability, in a more active respect, or at least retard the amount of incoming damage vs my outgoing damage-- it gets back to being an experienced player.

Would I like more personal survivability? Sure thing, and as you've stated, there are a lot of good points in this thread to back it. However, there is always a tricky balance to be established.