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I've done some testing with my 3 widow builds, here's my view on it:|
Originally Posted by Murdok
So I'm looking at respeccing my widow into a melee build and I was wondering which is better for DPA, burst damage, AOE, teaming, etc, a Fort or a NW?
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- Teaming: it's really gonna depend on what leadership skills you take, across the board it's all the same really as all branches have access to all the same team powers. Only difference I can see is the fortunata path has a slower activating mind link, so you will need to ensure it is perma to best benefit both youself and your team.
- AoE: Fort has an edge here with the addition of psy tornado (which is actually pretty decent, just long cast and costs a ton of end) and the phenomenal psy wail. They also have aura of confusion, which does some -serious- AE damage if used right. NWs get evicerate, a killer cone that not everyone is crazy about. NW's psy scream does better damage than the forts though, but not by much. Both get spin and dart burst, two very nice attacks.
- Burst: vs. single targets it's NW, hands down. Forts have nothing in their pool that compares to slash, and a BU slash crit from hide with muscular core alpha and double assaults can hit for 850+ easy. Best burst attack forts get is either lunge from hide or shatter armor.
Also, NWs have the better DPS, backing the blood widow attacks with mental training and slash. I can sustain 225 DPS on my NW, which translates into a 6:55 pylon defeat. I can't break 8 minutes with my melee fort. There are folks who say they have comparable melee dps, I've just never seen it first hand and this is with purposely testing it out across builds. But again, as mentioned earlier, forts have more AE options than NWs, which probably balances things out.
My 3 builds are a pure NW, a pure fort and a blood widow that backs her standard attack chain chain of FU, swipe, lunge and spin with few select fort powers (aim, dominate, AoC and psy wail, with 2 procs is all melee atacks <--- prob the most fun of the 3 to play for me). All 3 are IOed to the gills w/ permahasten, 1500 minimum hps, etc. I'm only pointing this out because I want to show that the builds are comparable for the testing, that it isn't a 10 billion inf build up against a SOed build.
To be completely honest though, even though the NW is a melee powerhouse and the fort has better AEs they all perform about the same in standard PvE. It was only through pylon testing that I was able to get a good idea of how much bette the NW is over the fort in single target damage. Outside of that I would have never known because they all feel "powerful" when shredding enemies on maps. If your are going to do something crazy like solo AVs, the NW has the edge. Against hordes of minions/lts, a fort's psy wail is unmatched. But in general gameplay I don't see a clear edge one has over the other.
Edit: just did some testing on my fort, they are capable of decent burst if specced for melee: vs a 50 equinox archon I hit with lunge for 524 and shatter armor for 649. Kinda what makes widows rock, they can do well across the board regardless of how they are built.
It's mostly a matter of utility versus damage. If you want to do the best possible damage out of the various Widow builds, Night Widow's superior (as well it should be). What you get out of going Fortunata is better AoE and lots of really solid AoE CC. Teaming-wise, both are incredibly solid, with Night Widow having a slight advantage pre-IOs in being able to perma Mind Link relatively easily (whereas you need a pretty goofy amount of recharge on a Fort to get it to be permanent).
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Great input. I've got enough money to pimp one build out (multiple purples, uniques, procs, maybe even a few pvp IOs) so I'm just not sure which to run. I've seen lolclaws scrappers with proc specs absolutely melt /wp brutes in pvp before, so I know that DPS ain't no joke. But at the same time, burst damage just feels so right to me and most my other toons go for that kind of thing. |
Originally Posted by Person34
I've done some testing with my 3 widow builds, here's my view on it:
- Teaming: it's really gonna depend on what leadership skills you take, across the board it's all the same really as all branches have access to all the same team powers. Only difference I can see is the fortunata path has a slower activating mind link, so you will need to ensure it is perma to best benefit both youself and your team. - AoE: Fort has an edge here with the addition of psy tornado (which is actually pretty decent, just long cast and costs a ton of end) and the phenomenal psy wail. They also have aura of confusion, which does some -serious- AE damage if used right. NWs get evicerate, a killer cone that not everyone is crazy about. NW's psy scream does better damage than the forts though, but not by much. Both get spin and dart burst, two very nice attacks. - Burst: vs. single targets it's NW, hands down. Forts have nothing in their pool that compares to slash, and a BU slash crit from hide with muscular core alpha and double assaults can hit for 850+ easy. Best burst attack forts get is either lunge from hide or shatter armor. Also, NWs have the better DPS, backing the blood widow attacks with mental training and slash. I can sustain 225 DPS on my NW, which translates into a 6:55 pylon defeat. I can't break 8 minutes with my melee fort. There are folks who say they have comparable melee dps, I've just never seen it first hand and this is with purposely testing it out across builds. But again, as mentioned earlier, forts have more AE options than NWs, which probably balances things out. My 3 builds are a pure NW, a pure fort and a blood widow that backs her standard attack chain chain of FU, swipe, lunge and spin with few select fort powers (aim, dominate, AoC and psy wail, with 2 procs is all melee atacks <--- prob the most fun of the 3 to play for me). All 3 are IOed to the gills w/ permahasten, 1500 minimum hps, etc. I'm only pointing this out because I want to show that the builds are comparable for the testing, that it isn't a 10 billion inf build up against a SOed build. To be completely honest though, even though the NW is a melee powerhouse and the fort has better AEs they all perform about the same in standard PvE. It was only through pylon testing that I was able to get a good idea of how much bette the NW is over the fort in single target damage. Outside of that I would have never known because they all feel "powerful" when shredding enemies on maps. If your are going to do something crazy like solo AVs, the NW has the edge. Against hordes of minions/lts, a fort's psy wail is unmatched. But in general gameplay I don't see a clear edge one has over the other. Edit: just did some testing on my fort, they are capable of decent burst if specced for melee: vs a 50 equinox archon I hit with lunge for 524 and shatter armor for 649. Kinda what makes widows rock, they can do well across the board regardless of how they are built. |
I should have probably prefaced my original post by noting that I run with my brother on his Fort very often. The two of us stack dub assault, manuevers, and & mindlink. He prefers the Fort's ranged & AoE attacks and I like dropping bosses like a bad habit. But I'm just torn between procing the melees in a Fort build (to utilize Aim + dub FU) and running a BU burst damage heavy NW (or maybe a FU focused NW).
Anyway, thanks for the help.
Honestly, if you're not looking to duo AVs, I'd go with two Forts just because (with enough recharge) you'll be able to cycle mass CCs enough to trivialize just about any mission you go into.
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What attack Chain and alpha were you using and can we see the build? |
Originally Posted by Person34
Also, NWs have the better DPS, backing the blood widow attacks with mental training and slash. I can sustain 225 DPS on my NW, which translates into a 6:55 pylon defeat. |
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Yeah that's the thing with Range VS Melee. Even though NW has much higher ST melee dps, in normal gameplay, Fort's damage doesn't feel that inferior because Fort doesn't need to chase runners or re-position herself (foe got knocked back). Pylon testing only gives you an idea of what your "raw" dps can be against something that doesn't move.|
Originally Posted by Person34
To be completely honest though, even though the NW is a melee powerhouse and the fort has better AEs they all perform about the same in standard PvE. It was only through pylon testing that I was able to get a good idea of how much bette the NW is over the fort in single target damage. Outside of that I would have never known because they all feel "powerful" when shredding enemies on maps. |
My all-ranged Fort still can't take down Pylon but I am not disappointed by that because I know her performance in most content is beyond superior than most of the toons I've made.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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This I agree. My friend copies my fortunata build and it is now his most favorite character! He and I are both 4th tier alpha and we have a lot of fun doing x8 missions. He and I are on teamspeak so we communicate and cycle our mini-nuke in each mob. :P|
Originally Posted by Vermain
Honestly, if you're not looking to duo AVs, I'd go with two Forts just because (with enough recharge) you'll be able to cycle mass CCs enough to trivialize just about any mission you go into.
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Duo-Fortunata is definitely scary.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I'll always argue FOR fort...but I'm a ranged fort.
from what I have heard, actually...forts provide better damage melee than NW's...not sure HOW, but they do.
Overall also, fortunata is a cooler name. *insert sunglasses*
oh god and yes, Duo-forts are terrifying.
then again...VEATs are some of the best AT's in the game, and with the incarnate slots/powers, they're becomming even MORE well rounded.
I mean, what's something NW's and Forts lacked before....? well, good debuffs were one...but the interface slot clears that, and then my Fort because I'm more utility, gets an extra crashless nuke from judgement 
welcome to our wonderful world >:3
Magisterum- 50+3 Fortunata--Virtue
Lukerion- 33 Emp/Rad Defender--Virtue
Noah Heartily- 34 SS/SD brute- Virtue
Mika Heartily- 50+1 Fire/MM blaster-Virtue
Just stumbled across Murdok's thread. (I'm his brother) For sometime, too long really, I ran a Peacebringer. The PB went through numerous versions, tri/duo/human etc. Underwhelmed over all, especially how I was more of a leach on a team considering how the Kheldian inherent powers work, I prefer to be beneficial to a team. And then I got my Fortunata to 50.
Now everything, I mean everything has been put into my Widow, and I couldn't be more pleased. Ranged/AOE build, teir 3 Cardiac Alpha (45end 20 rng), teir 4 Interface Reactive (75fire/25-res), tier 4 Destiny Rebirth (+hp), tier 3 lore and judgement.
My assessment: +damage and defense and tohit for everyone close enough to me, psy damge (my favorite), pets, procs on almost every attack, TWO crashless novas.
By far my most helpful and fun character to play.
Thanks all for your help
@Phillon
Twitter @FiveIronBrony
Hmm kind of an old thread but I'll chime in here anyway.
Pylon testing has shown me that the best practical attack chain, with "practical" being defined as "works reliably ingame with achievable levels of +recharge in your build while not being overcomplicated" available to a night widow (Follow Up - Slash - Lunge - Strike - Swipe, or Follow Up - Lunge - Strike - Swipe - Slash depending on your preference) is about 10% stronger than the Follow Up - Lunge - Strike - Swipe chain available to both widow types, with all other factors being equal.
In practice the night widow's access to slash will amount to a stronger effective single target damage lead in regular content, since in regular content there's target-changing and movement, which force interruptions into your attack chain and cause it to reset before it uses its weaker attacks or at least, make your harder hitting, slower-recycling attacks more available when you're actually attacking. But either widow will put out exceptionally good melee single-target damage. I wouldn't choose one branch over the other based on the damage difference alone here, I'd look at their other powers - and my build budget - first.
The night widow's advantages, other than extra damage overall and extra bursts, are the availability of Elude for combatting cascade failure and helping with end management, the presence of mental training in their power selection, and a faster recycle time on Mind Link. Mental training and Mind Link's speed for night widows make them a lot easier and cheaper to build well, in practice. No-purples night widow builds are very, very competitive with heavily purpled ones in practical gameplay, both according to theory and what I've seen ingame. The night widow's drawback is that you have a limited scope to your abilities, which are more focused into essentially making you a claws/SR scrapper with very nice team buffs but a fairly limited bag of other tricks.
The fortunata's advantage, meanwhile, is their bag of other tricks. You can get strong single target and area control capabilities while providing the same team buffs as the night widow, having nearly the same passive survivability (which would then become superior survivability when your control is factored in to the picture), and more area damage output options. You also have the option of dealing some psy damage, which can become an advantage in praetorian content and against the increasing number of boss enemies who use Unstoppable in taskforces and tip missions. And you still do nearly as much single-target damage as the night widow, which is enough to make a lot of scrappers jealous. The downside to fortunata is mainly that because of the lack of mental training and the longer recycle on mind link, having a 'top tier' fortunata build, with perma-mind link and competitive +recharge to a night widow, is not cheap or easy. Expensive IOs are required, probably including at least -some- purples.
That said, the ultimate deciding factor should be what capability you want your character to have. If you want to be a kick-butt, team-buffing melee, you should pick night widow. If you want to be more of a hybrid who's a solid melee but with a grab-bag of tricks and abilities, be a fortunata.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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This is why I'm a Melee Based Fortunata. I think I used 2 purple IOs, and maybe 2 Hami's in my Original build. However, I admit I'm upgrading to a Purple Confuse set (very cheap for a purple), and 3 more Hamis (cheap Hamis at that). However, A good Fort build does not require Hami's or Purples. I think my original build ran about 1 billion. Up to about 2.5 billion now, just guessing.|
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
...The fortunata's advantage, meanwhile, is their bag of other tricks. You can get strong single target and area control capabilities while providing the same team buffs as the night widow, having nearly the same passive survivability (which would then become superior survivability when your control is factored in to the picture), and more area damage output options. You also have the option of dealing some psy damage, which can become an advantage in praetorian content and against the increasing number of boss enemies who use Unstoppable in taskforces and tip missions. And you still do nearly as much single-target damage as the night widow, which is enough to make a lot of scrappers jealous...
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Everytime I die as a Fortunata, I pine for Elude.
Everytime I die as a Nightwidow, I pine for Psychic Wail, Aura of Confusion, and Confuse.
The Fortuata version is better for the team, the Nightwidow version, better for soloing. But it's a very close thing.
My melee Fort has almost softcapped melee and ranged defense. Double assault and double maneuvers. The only power I wish I could get from Night Widow is mental training.
No one pays attention to me, cause I listen to the voices in my head.
So I'm looking at respeccing my widow into a melee build and I was wondering which is better for DPA, burst damage, AOE, teaming, etc, a Fort or a NW?