Group Fly rework - Group Hover
By
Dechs Kaison,
Posted on: 2011-03-09 08:40 in Suggestions and Ideas
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While maybe a bit better (as in somewhat less annoying), it still suffers from the same problems. Most people just don't want to be made to hover/fly by somebody else. Even Hamidon raids - most non-flyers would rather just use a backpack.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
My proposal:
These changes address many of Group Fly's problems and make it a usable power. What this doesn't do is make it a practical travel power. Seeing as it isn't one right now and that there is no use for a group travel power, I don't think that's a problem. Group Hover, as I'm calling it, would become a combat power, an excellent tool for support characters to keep their teams safe. The proposed defense bonus is less than Maneuvers. It's equal to that of Hover, but scales off of the ally buff modifier. The smaller radius is to allow use of this power without filling up a room, which means people who don't want to fly don't have to. Thoughts? |
The power itself is just badly conceived. Is there any precedence for a power that works like group flight in comics or movies? I suppose Jean Grey and Sue Storm kinda make people fly with their powers, but it's still quite different than granting someone the ability to move thru the air as they will (save for the annoying inability to land).
IMO: Tier 4 flight should be simply Hyperflight. Flying but moving as fast as SS (and with a distinct animation perhaps), balanced by the fact you have to get 2 other pool powers to get it.
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I've often seen this suggestion given as an alternative for Group Flight. The only problem with it is that no one ever seems to realize that the Devs will never give us a version of Fly that's as fast a Super Speed without some significant limitations. If "Hyperflight" worked as you suggested here the fact that it'd be a tier 4 pool power would likely not be "enough" to balance it.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
IMO: Tier 4 flight should be simply Hyperflight. Flying but moving as fast as SS (and with a distinct animation perhaps), balanced by the fact you have to get 2 other pool powers to get it.
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The only way they would make a version of Fly as fast as Super Speed is if they put some kind of timer on it (i.e. only works for 15 seconds) or if they made it so it was almost impossible to turn while Hyperflying. They would do something like this to make it not quite as cool as "Fly that's as fast as Super Speed".
Basically if they ever gave us "Flying Super Speed" without any limitations then almost no one would ever bother with "Grounded Super Speed" anymore. In fact that's pretty much why Fly is slower than Super Speed and Super Jump is right now. It keeps those powers from being completely pointless.
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The problem with group fly and support characters (or any character) is that, depending on powerset, it makes powers unusable. It's not an issue if it's YOUR character flying - you can just detoggle. Group fly, though, requires you to get out of the radius of the "bubble." When I'm trying to use - say - stalagmites, it interferes. Toggle it on while someone's trying to get an AS off, they're interrupted.
Group *hover* would make it worse, as - moving at hover speed - it takes *longer* to get out of the way.
Group Fly has its uses. It needs to have everyone move at the same fly speed, though. (Masterminds CAN get around this by just directing a pet they have on follow.)
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I'm aware of this problem, and I mentioned it. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I resolved this issue by cutting the radius to almost half, which reduces the volume of the sphere to about 1/8th of its previous, making it much easier to stay out of the effect if you wish to be.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The problem with group fly and support characters (or any character) is that, depending on powerset, it makes powers unusable. It's not an issue if it's YOUR character flying - you can just detoggle. Group fly, though, requires you to get out of the radius of the "bubble." When I'm trying to use - say - stalagmites, it interferes. Toggle it on while someone's trying to get an AS off, they're interrupted.
Group *hover* would make it worse, as - moving at hover speed - it takes *longer* to get out of the way. |
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The tier 4 travel powers are generally poor performers. I would definately like to see a tier 5 of 'useful' powers added in because some people inevitably fiind a niche use for every power in the game.
A boost option for flight, a combat teleport for TP (team recall...) SJ? an IR like power would be interesting.
group fly is interesting and fun for a little bit but it loses it's gloss pretty quick. It would probably benefit from some polish.
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They need to standardise it so that, like Acid Mortar, Poison Trap and Trip mine for MMs work atm, any 'ground only' power should fire/work when your hovering at ground level. It's stupid not being able to do the same on my AR/Ice Blaster when trying to lay an Ice Patch.
And yeah, any change to Group Fly would be welcome.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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All those suggestions I suppose would still make it more appealing than the current tier-4, so maybe they will someday... |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I've often seen this suggestion given as an alternative for Group Flight. The only problem with it is that no one ever seems to realize that the Devs will never give us a version of Fly that's as fast a Super Speed without some significant limitations. If "Hyperflight" worked as you suggested here the fact that it'd be a tier 4 pool power would likely not be "enough" to balance it.
The only way they would make a version of Fly as fast as Super Speed is if they put some kind of timer on it (i.e. only works for 15 seconds) or if they made it so it was almost impossible to turn while Hyperflying. They would do something like this to make it not quite as cool as "Fly that's as fast as Super Speed". Basically if they ever gave us "Flying Super Speed" without any limitations then almost no one would ever bother with "Grounded Super Speed" anymore. In fact that's pretty much why Fly is slower than Super Speed and Super Jump is right now. It keeps those powers from being completely pointless. |
I wonder if you're over-rating how much people would give up slots that could be used on better powers just to 'go faster'. Heck, tons of people I know give up their current speediness (settling for Ninja Run) so they can have more slots for other stuff. Was on a STF to the other night. 6 out of 8 on the team were using Ninja Run as their travel power. Heck, I do it on most of my alts.
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Your "extra slots" argument might have had more weight before inherent fitness. Now, with inherent fitness, I suspect there would be a much stronger motivation to gain access to a "flying super speed" despite having to slot for a tier 4 pool power to get it. The Devs limited Fly's speed on purpose to make sure Super Speed and Super Jump would remain viable alternatives against it. I simply do not believe the Devs would ever decide to change their minds on that by giving us an unrestricted power that "broke" that balance.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
All those suggestions I suppose would still make it more appealing than the current tier-4, so maybe they will someday...
I wonder if you're over-rating how much people would give up slots that could be used on better powers just to 'go faster'. Heck, tons of people I know give up their current speediness (settling for Ninja Run) so they can have more slots for other stuff. Was on a STF to the other night. 6 out of 8 on the team were using Ninja Run as their travel power. Heck, I do it on most of my alts. |
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Quick brainstorm for a Group Fly replacement
Eagle Eye + Range +To Hit +Perception
Your mastery of the skies has truly made you synonomous with the term "death from above". Your vision is increased allowing you to focus in on targets from a greater range with unerring accuracy and in some cases to see hidden foes. The increased perception is a constant buff while the +range and +to hit buffs only apply while in flight.
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I'd rather incorporate a large endurance cost (say, 10-12 end/sec base cost) to emulate "pushing" yourself and make it useful only in "burst" situations. The concept reminds me of the flight sequence at the end of Matrix Reloaded. Perhaps an animation of a "streamlined" form, fully prone position with head slightly up, arms tight at sides and feet pointed with toes back with a large dust eddy formed behind you.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I've often seen this suggestion given as an alternative for Group Flight. The only problem with it is that no one ever seems to realize that the Devs will never give us a version of Fly that's as fast a Super Speed without some significant limitations. If "Hyperflight" worked as you suggested here the fact that it'd be a tier 4 pool power would likely not be "enough" to balance it.
The only way they would make a version of Fly as fast as Super Speed is if they put some kind of timer on it (i.e. only works for 15 seconds) or if they made it so it was almost impossible to turn while Hyperflying. They would do something like this to make it not quite as cool as "Fly that's as fast as Super Speed". Basically if they ever gave us "Flying Super Speed" without any limitations then almost no one would ever bother with "Grounded Super Speed" anymore. In fact that's pretty much why Fly is slower than Super Speed and Super Jump is right now. It keeps those powers from being completely pointless. |
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Here's a radical solution that might save the power's current utility while removing its irritating limitations:
Make Group Flight give a temporary power to all players affected. You know how giving someone your Holiday Gift spawns a temp power in their tray? Same deal, only in an AoE around the caster.
So, Group Fly caster casts a click PBAoE that gives everyone in range a "Group Flight" temp power which lasts for, say, 60 seconds to 5 minutes of use time, after which the caster must cast the buff again, replacing the old power with a fresh charge.
That way, people who don't want to be forced to fly won't be, and those who do want to fly will not just be able to do so, but will also be able to fly without worrying about falling behind out of the bubble and dropping out of the sky, and could indeed conserve the power to use when they need it, rather than RIGHT NOW because someone decided go AFK with Group Energy Flight in the middle of Wentworth's.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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No! Everyone must think happy thoughts at the same time! |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's a radical solution that might save the power's current utility while removing its irritating limitations:
Make Group Flight give a temporary power to all players affected. You know how giving someone your Holiday Gift spawns a temp power in their tray? Same deal, only in an AoE around the caster. So, Group Fly caster casts a click PBAoE that gives everyone in range a "Group Flight" temp power which lasts for, say, 60 seconds to 5 minutes of use time, after which the caster must cast the buff again, replacing the old power with a fresh charge. That way, people who don't want to be forced to fly won't be, and those who do want to fly will not just be able to do so, but will also be able to fly without worrying about falling behind out of the bubble and dropping out of the sky, and could indeed conserve the power to use when they need it, rather than RIGHT NOW because someone decided go AFK with Group Energy Flight in the middle of Wentworth's. |
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"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
This is a spinoff of a thread in the kheldian forums that I believe warrants a discussion of its own.
Group Fly, right now:
Endurance Cost - 1.0/s
Fly speed between that of Fly and Hover
-tohit of 25%
Prohibitive endurance cost.
Absurdly high -tohit penalty.
Flight mode (and -tohit penalty) enforced on all members in the very large area, prohibiting some powers from being used (e.g. Footstomp, Grounded) and making the use of others difficult (e.g. All Traps).
As a group travel power, it is impractical. Easily obtainable temporary jetpacks are as fast and provide more freedom, as they do not drop you if you are not following close enough or lag out.
My proposal:
Endurance Cost - 0.5/s (The same cost as flight)
Fly speed equal to that of Hover
+defense bonus of (0.25*Ranged Defense Buff Mod)%
Group Hover, as I'm calling it, would become a combat power, an excellent tool for support characters to keep their teams safe. The proposed defense bonus is less than Maneuvers. It's equal to that of Hover, but scales off of the ally buff modifier. The smaller radius is to allow use of this power without filling up a room, which means people who don't want to fly don't have to.
Thoughts?
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.