Ideal Leveling Team

Dark itself is still layered with stun/fear/res/heal/def. Not capped out of the box but still has 5% def.

Plus the disorients and kd+kb from stone. All mitigation.

Sailboat, I didnt realize that IOs were not allowed. I am still interested in knowing what you find to have excellent layered defences.

Didn't know it was required to have it to play. Giving my Dark/stone tank capped def just reeks of all sorts of wrong. That's why I won't mind pulling it off.

C'mon. You're just messing with me now. It's SinisterDirge who brought capped defense in as an example of layering, not me. And that capped defense can be achieved in this case only with IOs -- so I didn't bring IOs into it either.

And now you're (SinisterDirge) claiming the knockdown in Stone makes Dark "layered?"

Examples of layered defenses: Invulnerability, Willpower.

Yes, this.

It's an unstoppable force. I've found against AVs and GMs, 7 fire/rads and a scrapper with good single-target damage is a little better, just to have someone dealing huge damage numbers against debuffed-into-uselessness foes. But, it's not like 8 fire/rads need any help with anything.

Actually I was refering to the disorient from fault stacking with Opressive gloom. Enough mag to make even bosses stop punching your face and wobble around. However, it has been argued that using KB/KD can infact increase surviveability. It could therefore be argued that that is a form of mitigation. Obviously, It cant be argued with you, and frankly, I am not even a fan of that position.

We are not going to be able to agree here. Obviously you are standing from a perspective that only uses the secondary as mitigation, no pool powers, no IO's, no primary/secondary synergy. Nothing but the defense set and SO's... From that perspective, Willpower and invuln are not very layered either. From that perspective, I wouldn't be interested in playing any of the defense sets.

No, I'm NOT arguing that. And you never argued that the entire character had layered defenses, although you might have been thinking it. You said DARK had layered defenses. Dark, dark, dark -- not Dark/Stone. THAT'S what I took issue with.

Dark has resistances, a great heal, and insignificant +defense. If "resistances + heal = layered, that's stretching the word "layered" pretty thin. Maybe Dark's controls do count, and I should have thought of them as defenses (as opposed to "controls") in this context -- that's where you should have made your (verbal) stand, not on "but I've soft-capped" (not specific to Dark) or "but Stone..." (not specific to Dark) or "but pools..." which you just now introduced, also not specific to Dark.

You're building a straw man by disputing claims I never made. I totally understand and enjoy synergies and all the other stuff you say isn't in my perspective. I was only saying that saying I don't find Dark by itself (as you implied) particularly layered. On that narrow ground, what is your response? If you meant to say something else, go ahead.

Except that each has significant defense, significant resistance, more hit points, increased regen (huge for Willpower, somewhat less for Inv if you count the effects of Dull Pain's hit point boost on Inv's regen rate) and in Inv's case also a large, long-recharge heal. That's 4-5 types of defenses from the secondaries alone, not 2.

Sure it can.

What, no Stone? Def + resists + regen/heals, further layered in self-gimped -rech, -dam, -speed, -jump/fly. First two are optional, at least.

Sure, I wasn't attempting a comprehensive review of all powersets I'd consider "layered." I agree that the -rech and -dmg "layers" do indeed help survival -- of your enemies.

So all this back and forth because I didn't say the bolded:

Appologies folks.

That's one way of looking at it.

"All these dead bodies and twisted metal are just because I didn't say to cut the blue wire on the bomb, not the red one?"

Maybe if the bomb tech is teaching a nub. But you are not a nub are you? You already know to cut the blue wire.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.