Rise of the phoenix

Level scaling will affect the duration of the stun, not the mag. It will still be mag 4 even against +4s, or against +50s for that matter. It just won't last as long against higher con foes.

In combat vrs a spawn set at +4/8 solo with bosses? On a team, one would quite possibly have someone else to take aggro for a few seconds, or Kill that boss... or lock them down. Solo? .25 seconds can be a long time.

There we go. I stand corrected. Now can anyone tell me what the duration of the stun would be vs a +4 boss?

my first toon and also my main about pve/pvp is a fire/fire/fire blaster. pre i13 when i was using rise of the phoenix the opponent got stunned and in his buff far you could see rise x4. I assume since pvp then was like pve that the same thing happens with mobs that dont get kbed from me. you can also notice they get stunned more time than the time you hit em only once and they get kbed

Yes, even solo.

On your hypothetical team, the player using RoP could be the tank and now all that aggro is lose on the team. The tank tries to rez but dies immediately from the .25s flaw in the untouchable portion of the power.

Roughly half as long as it would be against a +0.

As to your objections, they're irrelevant. A combat rez is a combat rez. RoTP is not working as explicitly described by the developers (at least in certain of its incarnations). Is it a big deal that a solo Blaster dies (again) against large spawns of higher level mobs? Not in principle. Is it a big deal if that death results from what appears to be a bug? Yeah.

Your views on difficulty level are for another thread.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Except even on the hypothetical team, there is no .25 second delay for the untouchable portion of the tanker/scrapper/brute power. Which is why I have never noticed it on my scrapper.

Ah, that I did not know.

I guess it's the other incarnations of the power that need a review.

Agreed. I don't know why Blasters, Controllers and Dominators have the .25 second delay, and really, I have no complaint about removing it. I assume however, it is something the devs have thought about, and made a actual decision on seeing as they have divided who gets it, and who does not.

If you check my original post again, you will find this...

My main problem is the 0.25s part. Not that the stun etc doesn't work on higher level bosses. But it wouldnt matter if you were untouchable right away. This is why your statements about what people farm are irrelevant. Fact of the matter - I do farm BM on +4 x 8 because it is faster and more xp for my alts than demons. Also, I don't die very often either on that difficulty. So it's not like I am using RotP all the time. But sometimes things don't go your way, you miss a hold on a boss, or they get a lucky critical on you etc, and you do die. This is why when I do need my rez I want it to actually rez me, and keep on going. But I don't die ever on +2x8 or even +3 by 8. So saying that my self rez power is only going to be effective on a lower difficulty level where I never need it, seems like something is definitely broken about it.

Thanks!

What objections? Looking at the in game real numbers, there is a .25 second delay for controlers, doms, and blasters. I was attempting to explain why he was getting killed during that delay. That explanation appears to be faulty, and I have conceded such. If it is not the purple patch, I would love to know why the stun is not working as well.

Where did I give my views on difficulty? I run at +4/8 all the time. Granted, usually on a scrapper or a tank, but I know many people that do it on controllers, dominators or even corruptors. I do not begrudge them that. So exactly what are my views on difficulty sir?

Granted. Here is your next post:

I was trying to explain your major source of frustration. That is all. Nothing against you, or the way you farm. First post was tongue in cheek.

Again, apparently I was wrong, and my explanation holds no water.

I do believe that the delay is intended though. I dont say it makes sense, or excuse it, I just think that it was designed that way, and in situations like yours, the devs are unlikely to have much sympathy.

Hmm. I will give this a try...

You're welcome.

The purple patch affects ToHit, too. Your chance to hit a +4 mob is 39% versus the 75% chance you get against +0s.

My guess is that the stun is missing a larger portion of the spawn at that level. Or, the player in question is facing something that's unusually resilient to stun effects. Or, the player is getting pummeled by mobs that are just outside of the stun's area of effect. (I've seen that last scenario myself on my Blaster while fighting +0s, in fact.)

It doesn't take all that many opponents to kill a rezzing squishy.

Perhaps I misread your intent, then. You did say the following, though:

Those comments imply to me that you're hand-waving the issue. I suppose the delay on the squishy version of RoTP could be intentional, but there is no obvious rationale for that intention. If the idea is to make the power more risky for squishies to use, then that's fine (IMO stupid, but fine in principle), but why is the period of vulnerability before the player can react at all, in any way?

After all, isn't that period of helplessness the very reason that rez inspirations are generally ineffective in combat? Isn't that, in fact, the very reason to take a combat self-rez in the first place?

It's not a big deal in the grand scheme. It's just really annoying that even the freaking self rez on a squishy (which generally dies more often) is markedly less effective -- and in such a head-smacking, counter-intuitive way -- than the same power on a melee character.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

Not that xp debt is a big deal these days. But squishies only get 20sec debt protection vs 90sec for tanks and scrappers, and 60sec for brutes. Why the disparity? No idea, but the devs have done many things that make me shake my head a bit. It is one more reason for me to think it is on purpose though.

Nope not hand waving. More like asking how much sense it makes to complain to the cops about a speed limit, when you are trying to do something they may turn a blind eye to, but not exactly approve of.

The debt is irrelevant, I think, to most players. The purpose of a combat self rez is to give players a tactical leg up on someone else who might have to go to the hospital or wait for a rez from a teammate. For that matter, the purpose of a combat self rez is to relieve some of the pressure on a rez-capable teammate.

Dying immediately -- and thereby invoking the sizable cooldown timer on your rez -- defeats the entire purpose of the power.

Fair enough, but again, the difficulty level is irrelevant. A squishy with half health, no access to toggle defenses, and no ability to react dies very easily to even a small handful of foes that have the benefit of a computer's (instant) reaction time. In fairness, the bug (if we can call it that) doesn't rear its ugly head very often in my experience, in part because of RoTP's stun, in part because of teammate aggro management and/or support, and in part because frankly I don't die all that often soloing ( ). But it does happen, and it's annoying when it does.

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze Nice build

To clarify my position...I am only frustrated because I keep dying when I rez. lol Either the kb/stuns don't work, or I am being attacked before I can do anything. I was not exactly sure what was going on when I posted that, but now after reading the thread in it's entirety, I have a better idea of why now.

I'm going to try the 4 (or more) second idea another poster suggested. It's entirely possible I am rezing while still targeted by enemies, or even if they have an attack already queued up on me that did not execute because I was dead already.

I had a spines/dark farmer before I had this fire/kin with RotP. So I was used to the scrapper version of the self rez, and hadn't even noticed in his real numbers that the soul transfer had 0 delay. When my spines/dark would die...I would just click soul transfer right away, click on all my toggles, and within 10 seconds be back in business. Doesn't work so well with my controller. lol

It seems more than a bit biased to have a time delay on the untouchable portion for already squishier archetypes than melee archetypes. Usually for scrappers/tankers etc, they have some built in auto defence or resistance, and more hp, etc so are generally speaking, more capable of surviving a rez in combat even if there was a 0.25s delay than a controller, blaster , or dominator would. As Obitus mentioned, it doesn't even have to be a really higher difficulty level, although it is more immediately noticeable in that scenario.

I'm probably going to respec out of RotP if that 4 second wait trick doesn't work reliably.

Depends. One mez is all it takes to put anyone down in that situation. Hope the 4 sec thing works for you, really do. I am used to tanks and scrappers that have a lot of built up hate with the mobs. Sometimes I can wait close to 10-15 seconds and have the mobs chase me down after I rez.

I have absolutely no recommendations for an epic powerset to replace fire with, sorry.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it. Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with.

I recently started having the same problem with the self rez for my Peace Bringer. I have a good ping so I doubt it is lag. When a mob does a self rez not even my imps can take them down right away now, yet when my PB tries it is instant gib. I suspect some code got changed with an inadvertent result.

As you can see with MM pets and trick or treating and similar situations, critters (including our pets) can often target things before we can, and often even fire at them.

To the OP, as mentioned, the purple patch means you have only a 39% chance to hit the foes with the knockback and stun. It might be worth trying slotting some Accurate Healing sets into Rise to get some accuracy in, assuming it doesn't take normal Accuracy SOs or IOs. You could try it on Test if you don't want to commit to a respec build on Live.

And I would guess the Devs made the self rezzes on the melee folks have a better untouchable period because its typically part of their AT power set, rather than a power pool, even an epic one. They generally try to make sure pool powers don't overshadow similar AT ones.

RotP is auto-hit.

The enemies have always had a small window to attack before the untouchable portion kicked in. I believe they made a change a year or two ago to make it less likely to happen. It is possible this change was not ported to the APP versions.

I find it to be a rare occurrence, but I usually team, so the aggro is off me as soon as I die normally. If you are soloing large spawns, it will likely be more of a problem.

Hopefully it can be improved.