Tar Patch vs. Glue + Disruption Arrow
By
CBeet,
Posted on: 2011-02-18 22:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Trick Arrow also debuffs everything else Dark can, in an AoE, plus -def, -perception, an AoE hold and AoE attack (Oil Slick Arrow when lit).
Trick Arrow also has Acid Arrow, another -res for a total of -40% in an AoE (as a Defender), plus the power has -def and some toxic DoT which can be abused for procs (chance for knockdown, 4 chances for damage, chance for +tohit and chance for another -20% resistance) all on a 20 second recharge at base. Acid and Disruption Arrow can both be thrown out in 2.5 seconds(ish).
Dark one-ups by superior -tohit and healing/ressurecting, Trick Arrow is there to stop the enemy from being able/alive enough to take anyone out in the first place. It also looks cool.
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Glue's debuff is persistent after enemies leave the AoE. Tar Patch's is not.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
This is really confusing for me. Tar Patch has the same movement debuff value as Glue Arrow.
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| It is also 50% to 100% more effective, depending on AT, at debuffing resistance than Disruption Arrow. On top of this, Tar Patch can stack the -Resistance debuff, which Disruption arrow can not, making it 3 to 4 times better at providing -resistance against AVs/GMs. |
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| Why is Tar Patch flat out superior to the two Trick Arrow skills that combined cost nearly 300% more endurance to cast? |
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| It seems the only thing that the Glue/Disruption does better is a 20% recharge debuff for nearly triple the endurance cost. |
Disruption's -Res pulses have a duration of 5.25s, so targets which exit the AoE will remain debuffed for up to 5.25s, whereas Tar Patch's -Res has a duration of 0.45s per pulse, which results in the debuff being lost within a fraction of a second after enemies exit the AoE.
Both Glue and Disruption have a base recharge time of 60s, thus permitting them to be used more frequently and/or stacked, as opposed to Tar Patch's more restrictive 90s recharge time.
Essentially, a TA's debuffs last longer outside of the AoE locations or after the AoEs expire. Additionally, no power exists in a vacuum, all powers within a set are balanced in comparison to the other powers within that set, not across sets. Glue and Disruption's debuffs are balanced versus the availability of Acid Arrow and OSA, not against Tar Patch, or Sleet, or Acid Mortar + Caltrops, or anything else. Yes, there is some balance work done between sets and within the AT as a whole, but at no point is any one power "better" or "worse" in relation to another power in an entirely different set. Ever.
Bottom line, context matters. Specifically, the context of how a power works in conjunction with other powers within the same set, not how a power works in comparison to a completely different set with a totally different focus and no real directly comparable powers.
Things break down to some degree because Tar Patch was originally a terrible and borderline worthless tier 2 power that was solely a slow patch which was then given its resistance debuff later without much regard to how early it came in the set.
And then Trick Arrow was designed...poorly, let's say.
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I believe Tar Patch must be used on the ground as well. I can't remember if you can use Glue Arrow on a flying target, but I know you can aim Disruption Arrow to work in the air.
Also, Glue Arrow is a targeted effect while Tar Patch is a summoned entity. I personally like to target a foe and click rather than use the mouse but YMMV with that.
First, as Luminara stated, they are different, target a foe, or target the ground. Stacking 20% recharge debuff is a BIG thing, especially if you have a) a psy blast secondary on yourself or a teammate, b) another defender/controller/corruptor with -recharge primary to stack. In the lowbie levels, I have teamed a trick arrow defender with a teammate with snow storm and the stacked -recharge and slow movement is devastating - think masses of trolls in the hollows.
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While I agree w/your larger point, the flipside of Glue's persistence per mobs hit also works the other way, i.e. mobs that wander into Tar Patch's AoE are affected. I don't really consider the target persistence an advantage over area persistence, esp if you can lock stuff down inside of the patch.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
Glue's debuff is persistent after enemies leave the AoE. Tar Patch's is not..
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But yeah, arguing power to power leads to all sorts of silliness. For balance, you have to argue set to set.
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Glue's AoE is persistent. It's a 30s duration AoE which leaves the debuff on enemies for up to 30s after the AoE expires*. It has area persistence and per-target persistence.|
Originally Posted by dave_p
While I agree w/your larger point, the flipside of Glue's persistence per mobs hit also works the other way, i.e. mobs that wander into Tar Patch's AoE are affected. I don't really consider the target persistence an advantage over area persistence, esp if you can lock stuff down inside of the patch.
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*Barring bugs, of course. Corruptor version is bugged, the debuff is removed if the enemy is inside the AoE when it expires. Need to remind myself to test my mastermind.
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Entangling Arrow can bring down a flying target, too. Dark Miasma does not have any -fly.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I believe Tar Patch must be used on the ground as well. I can't remember if you can use Glue Arrow on a flying target, but I know you can aim Disruption Arrow to work in the air.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Technically, Tar Patch does -Fly, but of course the enemy needs to be in it already. Useful for preventing escape, but not for getting them out of the air.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Entangling Arrow can bring down a flying target, too. Dark Miasma does not have any -fly.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I think where things might be balanced or not is better judged over what two different defenders can do over a few spawns. Some might performed better at different positions of safety, on different numbers of targets. Different powersets specialize in different ways and it's a matter of what specialization weighs well in comparison to another I suppose. Teaming with my all defender team as a TA doesn't make mine feel weak at all, I scout just ahead, flash arrow, maybe open with EMP, or poison gas and use oil slick + res debuffs and pretty much watch minion munching.
Edit: Reading CoD
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...nicDebuffArrow
It says effect does not stack from same caster. I tried it long ago in the past and it didn't appear to.
Edit: testing it this morning I got it to stack. Castle told me that that site was probably correct due to its source but I don't know if its been changed since that time.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Pets_SonicDebuffArrow is a pet. When you cast the power, you're summoning a new pet, and the pet itself is the caster. If two pets overlap, they will stack, since the effect is from two different casters (two different pets).
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Reading CoD
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...nicDebuffArrow It says effect does not stack from same caster. I tried it long ago in the past and it didn't appear to. Edit: testing it this morning I got it to stack. Castle told me that that site was probably correct due to its source but I don't know if its been changed since that time. |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Lol did you check Tar Patch's entry? It also says:
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...=Pets_TarPatch
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RunSpeed -0.9 for 0.5s Effect does not stack from same caster JumpHeight -500 for 0.45s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable] Effect does not stack from same caster Max RunSpeed -3.5 for 0.45s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] Effect does not stack from same caster -10 Fly for 0.45s [Non-resistable] Effect does not stack from same caster RES(All Types) -30% for 0.45s PvE only [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] Effect does not stack from same caster RES(All Types) -30% for 0.45s If target is a player [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable] Effect does not stack from same caster Unknown Null 0 for 0.45s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs] [Non-resistable] Effect does not stack from same caster |
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I not surprised people misinterpret the info. I do all the time |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Pets_SonicDebuffArrow is a pet. When you cast the power, you're summoning a new pet, and the pet itself is the caster. If two pets overlap, they will stack, since the effect is from two different casters (two different pets).
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Pseudopets stack 
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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On Defender, yes but for MM, /Dark is better because Tar Patch is a "pet" so the debuff value is higher than MM's Trick Arrow debuffs which use MM's debuff scale. |
Originally Posted by CBeet
Trick Arrow also debuffs everything else Dark can, in an AoE, plus -def, -perception, an AoE hold and AoE attack (Oil Slick Arrow when lit).
Trick Arrow also has Acid Arrow, another -res for a total of -40% in an AoE (as a Defender), plus the power has -def and some toxic DoT which can be abused for procs (chance for knockdown, 4 chances for damage, chance for +tohit and chance for another -20% resistance) all on a 20 second recharge at base. Acid and Disruption Arrow can both be thrown out in 2.5 seconds(ish). Dark one-ups by superior -tohit and healing/ressurecting, Trick Arrow is there to stop the enemy from being able/alive enough to take anyone out in the first place. It also looks cool. |
MM"s Trick Arrow debuff values feel so low....
Defender's Trick Arrow values are very high.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
This is really confusing for me. Tar Patch has the same movement debuff value as Glue Arrow. It is also 50% to 100% more effective, depending on AT, at debuffing resistance than Disruption Arrow. On top of this, Tar Patch can stack the -Resistance debuff, which Disruption arrow can not, making it 3 to 4 times better at providing -resistance against AVs/GMs.
Why is Tar Patch flat out superior to the two Trick Arrow skills that combined cost nearly 300% more endurance to cast? It seems the only thing that the Glue/Disruption does better is a 20% recharge debuff for nearly triple the endurance cost.