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There are four levels of defense that matter:|
Originally Posted by Bonnes
Defense - I remember that I liked having more than 45% Defense, such that I could take one Defense debuff and still be capped, having the ITF in mind. Are there other considerations that I should take into account now? I've heard something about Praetorian DE, and don't things in the new TFs have extra To-Hit? How much Defense do you think I should be going for?
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45%: This will protect you against almost all enemies that are less than +6 to you.
59%: This will protect you against Praetorian/level 50 DE, Battle Maiden in the Apex TF, and probably a few others.
70%: This will protect you against summoned pets.
145% (attainable by a Katana/SR scrapper in Elude, and probably nobody else): This will protect you against Devouring Earth buffed by a Quartz Emanator.
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| Accuracy - is 95% for +4s still a worthy goal? |
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| Recharge - When I last visited this character I was using the BF -> AV -> PS chain. Now with merits and other shinies, I should be able to work some LotGs into my build. Is there something else I should be keeping in mind here? How about perma-Hasten? |
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However, accuracy is one of the easiest bonuses to come by, which leaves nerve as one of the more useless alphas unless you're building for insane amounts of defense and need every little bit.|
Originally Posted by Katie V
You will be facing +4s in the Apex and Tin Mage TFs, as well as the +4 AVs in the Statesman TF. Keep in mind that a Nerve Alpha enhancement will give you a good part of the accuracy you need for these guys.
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I don't think it's worth getting your defense higher than a bit over the regular softcap. There are too few things that will break through it to justify sacrificing what you would have to sacrifice (pretty much anything else that doesn't come as a byproduct from your def slotting).
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There's also a 75% defense level that matters, in regards to the STF and Lord Recluse. Most scrappers won't have to deal with that though.|
Originally Posted by Katie V
There are four levels of defense that matter:
45%: This will protect you against almost all enemies that are less than +6 to you. 59%: This will protect you against Praetorian/level 50 DE, Battle Maiden in the Apex TF, and probably a few others. 70%: This will protect you against summoned pets. 145% (attainable by a Katana/SR scrapper in Elude, and probably nobody else): This will protect you against Devouring Earth buffed by a Quartz Emanator. You will be facing +4s in the Apex and Tin Mage TFs, as well as the +4 AVs in the Statesman TF. Keep in mind that a Nerve Alpha enhancement will give you a good part of the accuracy you need for these guys. For the typical scrapper, it is possible to have too much recharge. You probably won't have long-recharge powers that you want up as often as possible, so any recharge in excess of what you need to run your desired attack chain is wasted. |
But really, get 45% defense, and don't worry about having anything much more than that. As an SR scrapper, you laugh in the face of defense debuffs, simply because you resist them like nothing else in the game. Even the most powerful defense debuffs should do almost nothing to your defense levels. Cascade failure is not something you have to worry about. If you ever need more than 45% defense, your team should hopefully provide, or if not, pop a purple inspiration or two.
In regards to recharge, as a Dual Blades scrapper, getting more recharge can open up new and improved attack chains. I don't know the exact hierarchy here, but I know that there are some ridiculous attack chains that come out of extremely high recharge builds. A search on these forums should pull up threads about it, but the basics of it is that the BF->AV chain is good and not terribly difficult to get, but there are attack chains which are superior to it if you have the recharge for them. There's been some talk of an Empower attack chain that's ridiculous for single target DPS, but I don't know what sort of recharge you need to get that to work.
Ghostveil, as drawn by Shia
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Most defense debuffs are 7.5%. As a SR Scrapper, you should have 95% defense debuff resistance just by enhancing your powers. That means those debuffs will only do .375% each, making the chances for the next defense debuff to land only barely higher. You don't need to have more than a 1% buffer because of your high DDR.|
Originally Posted by Bonnes
Defense - I remember that I liked having more than 45% Defense, such that I could take one Defense debuff and still be capped, having the ITF in mind. Are there other considerations that I should take into account now? I've heard something about Praetorian DE, and don't things in the new TFs have extra To-Hit? How much Defense do you think I should be going for?
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| Regen, Resistance - I'm fairly confident that I'll still have Tough and will be slotting Health strongly, but aside from that what should I keep in mind regarding my secondary forms of protection? It should be noted that I'll be taking Body Mastery and won't take Aid Self. Yeah, I know, but it's just not going to happen on this particular character. |
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| Accuracy - is 95% for +4s still a worthy goal? What goes into figuring how much Accuracy I need for a given mob? |
Also, you can take Focused Accuracy since you will be taking the Body Mastery pool. That is a good place to put 6 Gaussian's for the set bonus.
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| Recharge - When I last visited this character I was using the BF -> AV -> PS chain. Now with merits and other shinies, I should be able to work some LotGs into my build. Is there something else I should be keeping in mind here? How about perma-Hasten? |
Has anyone put together a nice scrapper attack chain guide? I know you can calculate one, but having a handy all-in-one reference would be nice.
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Some Accuracy numbers to complement the Defense numbers further up the page:|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
I wouldn't worry about this one too much. Enhance your attacks with at least 50% accuracy. You will get plenty more from set bonuses. To-hit buffs (from yourself or your team) can take you to 95% easily. A lot of people run Tactics from the Leadership pool because that was the easiest choice for them to replace Stamina with when it became inherent in I19.
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To hit 95% against:
+4s with no extra buffs: 144% Accuracy
+4s with Scrapper Tactics, unslotted: 107% Accuracy
+4s with Scrapper Tactics, slotted to ~11%: 90% Accuracy
+3s with no extra buffs: 98% Accuracy
+3s with Scrapper Tactics, unslotted: 72% Accuracy
+3s with Scrapper Tactics, slotted to ~11%: 61% Accuracy
Those percentages include both per-power enhancements and global bonuses (and the Nerve Alpha if you go that route). You can hit 144% Accuracy with set IOs, but Tactics makes life a lot easier. The +3 numbers are important if you go for the level-shifted Alpha; at that point you're likely not to face anything that counts as +4 to you.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Thanks, everyone!
I am concerned about my DB/SR more than other characters at the moment, but I'm looking for more... "foundational" knowledge that I can apply to my other characters.
My question about Recharge was a bit misleading. It seems like the main things that are new to me are that you can get a LotG once every four (four, right?) days, and that there are some powers whose recharge rate can't be changed. As far as my DB/SR is concerned, I'm pretty comfy with BF -> AV -> PS. I have to take either NS or PS, and it pleases me for my attacks to be more than just mules. Besides, if I get external Recharge buffs I can just drop PS. However, in today's game I might be able to afford higher levels of Recharge, and if that's so and if I also decide to pursue that on this character I'll probably go for BF -> SS -> AS. BF -> AS -> SS -> AS is a bit stronger when optimally-slotted, but the shorter chain isn't far behind, likely has better AoE, and responds far better to Speed Boost and the like. I'm more inclined to apply those +Recharge efforts to my BS/SD, though, or maybe my AR/Eng Blaster.
So, aside from A-merits and LotGs, is there anything else I ought to keep in mind?
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Thanks! This will definitely help in planning my BS/SD, but I imagine it'll just come down to "Defense Debuffs? Parry more!"|
Originally Posted by Syntax
Most defense debuffs are 7.5%.
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With Accuracy and To-Hit, wasn't there a rule of thumb regarding their interaction. I don't seem to recall messing around with
HitChance = Clamp(AccMods × Clamp(BaseHitChance + ToHitMods DefMods))
nearly as much a couple of years ago.
Thanks for all the help!
's doesn't make things plural.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Some Accuracy numbers to complement the Defense numbers further up the page:
To hit 95% against: +4s with no extra buffs: 144% Accuracy +4s with Scrapper Tactics, unslotted: 107% Accuracy +4s with Scrapper Tactics, slotted to ~11%: 90% Accuracy +3s with no extra buffs: 98% Accuracy +3s with Scrapper Tactics, unslotted: 72% Accuracy +3s with Scrapper Tactics, slotted to ~11%: 61% Accuracy |
Hmmmm.
Out of curiosity, how does Focused Accuracy affect those numbers?
And, how did you calculate these figures?
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+4 with Focused Accuracy, unslotted: 96% Accuracy|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Hmmmm.
Out of curiosity, how does Focused Accuracy affect those numbers? And, how did you calculate these figures? |
+4 with Focused Accuracy, slotted to ~8%: 83% Accuracy
+3 with Focused Accuracy, unslotted: 60% Accuracy
+3 with Focused Accuracy, slotted to ~8%:50% Accuracy
That's actually interesting. I hadn't calculated the numbers for Focused Accuracy before. I knew it provided more overall bonus than Tactics, but not by how much. Tactics still has a use, though; it costs significantly less in end/sec than FA, and it allows you to take an APP other than Body Mastery.
Anyway, for how to calculate:
Go to the Attack Mechanics page on the wiki. At the bottom is a list of to-hit chances based on the level of the enemy relative to the level of the player. For example, you have a base 39% chance to hit a +4 enemy and 48% for a +3 enemy.
Final to-hit is calculated by the sum of all your to-hit mods multiplied by the sum of all your accuracy mods. You can find out how much accuracy you need by totaling up your to-hit mods, adding it to the base, then dividing 95 (the target to-hit number) by that number.
Example: Base for +4 is 39%. You have Tactics which adds 7% for a total of 46, so 95/46 = 2.0652. There's an extra 1.0 built into that number, so you can subtract that to get 1.0652, or 1.07 rounded up, or 107% accuracy needed.
Focused Accuracy has both a to-hit and an accuracy component, so there's an extra step. FA gives 5% to-hit, so 39 + 5 = 44, and 95/44 = 2.159, or 1.16 or 116% Accuracy needed. But since FA is already giving you 20% global accuracy, 116 - 20 = 96% more Accuracy needed.
If you have an attack that has a base accuracy that's higher or lower than 1.0, you'd need to divide the number you get after dividing 95 by to-hit by whatever the base attack accuracy is. You technically always should do that step, but since you're usually dividing by 1.0 it's meaningless.
Example: Broadsword attacks have a 1.05 base accuracy. We've already figured that for +4s with FA, you get 2.159 accuracy. If you divide by 1.05, you get 2.056, or 106% Accuracy needed, or 86% after figuring in FA's contribution.
(I may have made a misstep in math in this paragraph. Pretty sure I didn't, but I hadn't looked at different base accuracy before now.)
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Statesman and Lord Recluse task forces can get you a Hami-O. If you get lucky, you can get some influence. It may be worth doing once per day, if you are really trying to get influence.|
Originally Posted by Bonnes
So, aside from A-merits and LotGs, is there anything else I ought to keep in mind?
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| Thanks! This will definitely help in planning my BS/SD, but I imagine it'll just come down to "Defense Debuffs? Parry more!" |
Don't forget about inspirations. Those can also help you deal with debuffs.
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Energy Armor in Overload should do the trick as well.
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Originally Posted by Katie V
145% (attainable by a Katana/SR scrapper in Elude, and probably nobody else): This will protect you against Devouring Earth buffed by a Quartz Emanator.
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SR Stalkers as well for a fact. I imagine probably everything SR which most likely even includes the Brute.|
Originally Posted by Katie V
145% (attainable by a Katana/SR scrapper in Elude, and probably nobody else): This will protect you against Devouring Earth buffed by a Quartz Emanator.
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And you can also add the Widow to that list - they get there easily, even with just an LotG in Elude.
Also, you're right in the fact a Quartz adds 100% tohit, but if I'm not mistaken DE have 68% tohit by default making your magical number 163% rather than 145%.
Again, a Widow can get there easily with Elude and perma-ML.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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To check your accuracy against +4s, go into Mids', then Options -> Configuration -> Exemping & Base Values -> Base ToHit -> 39. If you have a Gaussian set in something like Tactics, you'll need to remove the chance of build up, or it will be factored in and thus greatly inflate your chance to hit. I shoot for 95% or higher against +4s. I'd like a LOT higher, but other build considerations usually take precedence.
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Originally Posted by Bonnes
What goes into figuring how much Accuracy I need for a given mob?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Can I ask why?
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Originally Posted by Werner
I'd like a LOT higher, but other build considerations usually take precedence.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Why I want a lot more? Well, without Focused Accuracy (I only have that on my Katana/Regen), debuffs hurt a lot. And then you get things like bubbled level 54 Rikti Drones, for instance. If you're using a Katana, you have to hit for your defense, which matters on my Katana/Dark and has been a problem on occasion. So lots of reasons, but none of them really strong enough to make me say, "yeah, that's more important than 100 more hit points" or whatever the trade off might be. So I typically end up not much more than 95% to hit +4s.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
Can I ask why?
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Tactics does have one more use, especially after inherent fitness and wanting to put in some powers that are useful with few or no extra slots; it helps your team. And on a team where a bunch of players have done this sort of thing, even unslotted Leadership buffs will add up.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
<...>
That's actually interesting. I hadn't calculated the numbers for Focused Accuracy before. I knew it provided more overall bonus than Tactics, but not by how much. Tactics still has a use, though; it costs significantly less in end/sec than FA, and it allows you to take an APP other than Body Mastery. <...> |
Plus if you've put a full Gaussian in it you're more likely to actually run the damn thing than you'd be with *huff* *puff* Focused Accuracy, and that proc will check every 10 seconds. Less than if you'd put it in BF, but you get the 2.5% defense from Gaussian's. Slot cost is pretty high, but I'd certainly consider it an option.
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Fair nuff. And of course, those corner cases (although Rikti drones are hardly bloody corner) are what Build Up is for. +40% to-hit solves a lot of problems.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Why I want a lot more? Well, without Focused Accuracy (I only have that on my Katana/Regen), debuffs hurt a lot. And then you get things like bubbled level 54 Rikti Drones, for instance. If you're using a Katana, you have to hit for your defense, which matters on my Katana/Dark and has been a problem on occasion. So lots of reasons, but none of them really strong enough to make me say, "yeah, that's more important than 100 more hit points" or whatever the trade off might be. So I typically end up not much more than 95% to hit +4s.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Thank you for the info. Hrrrrm.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
+4 with Focused Accuracy, unslotted: 96% Accuracy
+4 with Focused Accuracy, slotted to ~8%: 83% Accuracy +3 with Focused Accuracy, unslotted: 60% Accuracy +3 with Focused Accuracy, slotted to ~8%:50% Accuracy That's actually interesting. I hadn't calculated the numbers for Focused Accuracy before. I knew it provided more overall bonus than Tactics, but not by how much. Tactics still has a use, though; it costs significantly less in end/sec than FA, and it allows you to take an APP other than Body Mastery. |
Also, in fairness, Focused Accuracy provides a large perception bonus, which I find helps a lot against Arachnos, in particular.
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Anyway, for how to calculate: Go to the Attack Mechanics page on the wiki. At the bottom is a list of to-hit chances based on the level of the enemy relative to the level of the player. For example, you have a base 39% chance to hit a +4 enemy and 48% for a +3 enemy. |
You know, it's been years since I looked at this stuff....
For example:
It is a widely repeated statement that 45 percent defense is 'the soft cap', and it will reduce enemies to a 5 percent chance to hit you.
How is this affected by the 'RankAcc' bonuses? Bosses get a 30 percent accuracy boost.
How does this interact with the level mod?
IE, is a -1 boss at 5 percent if you're softcapped? How about at +3?
What about Lt's?
I seem to recall people had worked out all these nembers in years gone by, but I can't find anything about it now....
It's all on that page I'm sure, though it may require a lot of interpretation of what you're looking at.
The 45% soft cap is unaffected by enemy accuracy bonuses. It is only affected by enemy to-hit bonuses, which most enemies don't have. Yes, a +4 boss will be more likely to hit you than an even-level minion, but 45% will still give you the lowest possible chance of being hit.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
The thing about Accuracy is it's a percentage of to-hit. The more to-hit you start with, the more Accuracy matters. Conversely, the less to-hit you start with, the less Accuracy matters. If a boss has a base 50% chance to hit you, then the 1.3 modifier adds a full 15% to its chance to hit you. But if it only has a 5% chance to hit, then the 1.3 modifier only adds 1.5%. That's nothing.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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This. Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yes, a +4 boss will be more likely to hit you than an even-level minion, but 45% will still give you the lowest possible chance of being hit.
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Also, for reference: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115184 - Arcana's Guide to Defense v1.4 - Updated for I7
It shows you (with the knowledge that most enemies have a base tohit of 50% at equal level up to +5 to you) why you still get a lowest final chance to hit with that defense. All defense / tohit business happens before the multiplication with the acc modifiers in the final chance to hit formula.
Yes, 45% is the softcap and is what you need to give most (not all) enemies the lowest final chance to hit possible against you, under the assumption there are no tohit buffs or the likes at work.
The 5% final hit chance however is used far too often as that is merely the result of an example scenario showing the effects of having softcapped def against minions of +0 through +5 in level with the default base tohit. The fact this 5% gets thrown out there too often with no context whatsoever seems to have lead to many players thinking it should apply to lieutenants and bosses as well, which it doesn't.
Basically it comes down to this: in comparison to +0 for the first 5 levels in difference between a critter and you it's their accmod that goes up. Beyond +5 the level difference no longer raises their accmod, but their tohit instead.
Tohit you can counter with defense, but that's beyond +5.
A higher accmod just gives them a higher chance to hit, regardless of your def (well, up to capped hit chance ofcourse.
) and that results in damage you'll pretty much just have to find a way to deal with.Higher ranks also affect that accmod.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
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Tactics also provides a perception bonus. Focused Accuracy does provide to-hit debuff resistance though, which is helpful against stuff like CoT Death Mages, Carnie Master Illusionist pets, and Black Swan's stupid blue monkeys.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Also, in fairness, Focused Accuracy provides a large perception bonus, which I find helps a lot against Arachnos, in particular.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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Level 50/"Praetorian" DE have a base 64% to-hit. All other DE have the same base 50% to-hit that the vast majority of enemies have.
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Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Also, you're right in the fact a Quartz adds 100% tohit, but if I'm not mistaken DE have 68% tohit by default making your magical number 163% rather than 145%.
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My bad, it's 64%, not 68%.|
Originally Posted by Katie V
Level 50/"Praetorian" DE have a base 64% to-hit. All other DE have the same base 50% to-hit that the vast majority of enemies have.
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But you're not right about it being just lvl 50 Praetorian DE.
It's all DE.
Duo MoITF - 26:06 | Duo MoKahn - 25:50 | Duo MoLGTF - 29:34 |
I've come back to CoH after a couple of years away and I don't remember how to make builds anymore!
I was very proud of my DB/SR build that was effective and not ridiculously expensive, but times have quite clearly changed. Between the new IOs, Incarnates, and the demands of the new TFs, I've decided to rebuild from scratch, and I'm wondering if you'll help me figure out my parameters.
Defense - I remember that I liked having more than 45% Defense, such that I could take one Defense debuff and still be capped, having the ITF in mind. Are there other considerations that I should take into account now? I've heard something about Praetorian DE, and don't things in the new TFs have extra To-Hit? How much Defense do you think I should be going for?
Regen, Resistance - I'm fairly confident that I'll still have Tough and will be slotting Health strongly, but aside from that what should I keep in mind regarding my secondary forms of protection? It should be noted that I'll be taking Body Mastery and won't take Aid Self. Yeah, I know, but it's just not going to happen on this particular character.
Accuracy - is 95% for +4s still a worthy goal? What goes into figuring how much Accuracy I need for a given mob?
Recharge - When I last visited this character I was using the BF -> AV -> PS chain. Now with merits and other shinies, I should be able to work some LotGs into my build. Is there something else I should be keeping in mind here? How about perma-Hasten?
To be clear, I'm not trying to get someone to hand me a build; I'm trying to re-learn how to make my own builds. If you want to post a build to illustrate a point or whatever, then by all means do so!
Thanks, all.
's doesn't make things plural.