Well. I just want to LOL-promise that that Task Force had a couple of melees on it who thought they were in some kind of position to judge a multiplier set. Any of them. The game should gift debt anytime a Scrapper makes a comment about which support character he or she thinks is useful.
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No one will argue that Benumb is amazing. However, even with 164% Global Recharge it's still not perma.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
The vast majority of your debuffs with Cold/Rad come from Cold/. Benumb and Sleet are the real killers, providing huge Regen, damage, defense and damage resistance debuffs. The /Rad only provides relatively minor defense debuffs (though the Irradiate debuff is pretty decent, but you've got to get into melee range with it, so you're probably not going to want to use that a lot against AVs solo).
However, if you were to slot the Achilles Heel: Chance for damage resistance debuff in several of your attacks /Rad can be seriously enhanced. Though it probably means giving up the opportunity for slotting certain defense set bonuses (Thunderstrike and Obliteration). |
Sleet is more of a variety pack, including -def, -res, -recharge, -speed. But it is on a longer timer and has less -def than Irradiate. Sleet up every 19.81 seconds with -41.75% def, can stack twice; Irradiate up every 6.6 seconds with -45.66% def, can stack twice.*
1/4 of my primary powers do nothin' for me (skipped Frostworks). Not complaining, I love shields on my teammates, but they're nonexistant powers in a solo-AV fight and a benefit to any team.
In /Rad I've got Irradiate, mentioned above, plus Electron Haze and Neutrino Bomb both stacking -25% each on multiple targets.
*Note - numbers from my own build, Sleet & Irradiate both slotted with 4 identical Shield Breakers.
p.s. The argument here is not that Cold/ isn't awesome, but that /Rad IS.
Siberian Spring-50 (Cold/Rad, Rad/Ice, Ice/Rad, Sh/Ice) - KGB SS8
Chernozem-50 (Ice/MM, Emp/Ice, MA/Regen) - KGB SS8
Wila-50 (Dark/Arch) - KGB SS8
Also: Krassivy Mechtayu-50 (Ill/Rad) - KGB SS8; Ms. Hypatia-50 (Dark/Regen)
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And all that -defense is doing exactly nothing for you. You start off with a 75% chance to hit even cons. One SOs worth of accuracy and you've got yourself a capped chance to hit. AVs are not any harder to hit.|
Originally Posted by Siberian_Spring
Sleet is more of a variety pack, including -def, -res, -recharge, -speed. But it is on a longer timer and has less -def than Irradiate. Sleet up every 19.81 seconds with -41.75% def, can stack twice; Irradiate up every 6.6 seconds with -45.66% def, can stack twice.*
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When you're talking about a triple digit recharge IO build, you're bound to have a ton of extra accuracy as well.
Even if you needed those defense debuffs, keep in mind how much they're being resisted. Against an AV, cut all your numbers down to 15% of what you've listed. Your irradiate is doing less than 7% of defense debuff.
Again, if you needed those defense debuffs, they're not going to help you. You need to hit with them first. If you need defense debuffs, you can't hit the enemy reliably to land the debuffs.
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Quote:
Aim is native to the set for assistance is landing those debuffs. Hitting Aim and following up with Irradiate and Cosmic Burst on an AV is roughly equivalent to Tactics. And Tactics is not without value on a Defender.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
And all that -defense is doing exactly nothing for you. You start off with a 75% chance to hit even cons. One SOs worth of accuracy and you've got yourself a capped chance to hit. AVs are not any harder to hit.
When you're talking about a triple digit recharge IO build, you're bound to have a ton of extra accuracy as well. Even if you needed those defense debuffs, keep in mind how much they're being resisted. Against an AV, cut all your numbers down to 15% of what you've listed. Your irradiate is doing less than 7% of defense debuff. Again, if you needed those defense debuffs, they're not going to help you. You need to hit with them first. If you need defense debuffs, you can't hit the enemy reliably to land the debuffs. |
For defense based mobs (including AVs), it only takes one hit with -def to start a cascade failure.
I'm not saying that /Rad is reason to accept/reject a player on a team, but to say -def has negligible value is equivalent to saying +tohit has negligible value.
Siberian Spring-50 (Cold/Rad, Rad/Ice, Ice/Rad, Sh/Ice) - KGB SS8
Chernozem-50 (Ice/MM, Emp/Ice, MA/Regen) - KGB SS8
Wila-50 (Dark/Arch) - KGB SS8
Also: Krassivy Mechtayu-50 (Ill/Rad) - KGB SS8; Ms. Hypatia-50 (Dark/Regen)
Given the choice between -def and ANY OTHER DEBUFF though, I can't say I'd choose -def if I was looking for "debuffs". Off the top of my head, defenders typically have access to: -res, -regen, -recovery, and -tohit, in terms of significant (10%+) debuffs. I would pick any of those over -def, even -tohit will do more for the team's survivability.
I'm not dismissing -def, or saying /Rad "isn't really a debuff", but if I were putting together a PuG TF, and had one spot left, and we were in desperate need of debuffs... -def (or /Rad) wouldn't even be an option. I would swap toons.
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It most certainly is not. They may have the same place in a formula, but in practice there is a very real difference. One of these things does not require a tohit check, is active 100% of the time, and is not subject to enemy resistance. The other is borderline useless.|
Originally Posted by Siberian_Spring
but to say -def has negligible value is equivalent to saying +tohit has negligible value.
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Let's fight Mako from the STF. He's the most notorious hard to hit enemy, so this is the chance for your defense debuffs to shine.
Everyone on the team is whiffing because he's got defense. You pop Aim and fire off Irradiate, Cosmic Burst, and some other power in the time Aim is active. We have to assume that Aim is capping your chance to hit, ignore the fact that the three attacks would still have a chance to miss, and ignore the possibility that Mako's AoE attacks could kill you in the time it takes to approach and retreat for Irradiate. Using your defender's numbers, that's a total of 121.76% in defense debuffs. Now, assuming that Mako's defense powers do not include any sort of defense debuff resistance of their own, your debuffs now face a 87% resistance for the 54 AV. Then you have to layer the purple patch that brings your debuffs down by another 52%. You can debuff Mako's defense by 8.73%, so long as you never miss an attack in your chain, which will happen on average once every twenty attacks. I think AV fights last around the time it takes to execute twenty attacks.
Or you could just slot tactics for +18.125% tohit and not run the risk of entering melee range or missing.
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Defense debuffs :|
Originally Posted by Siberian_Spring
to say -def has negligible value is equivalent to saying +tohit has negligible value.
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- have a limited duration
- are resisted by both the purple patch and AV resistances ; i.e., a 30% debuff turns out to do around -1.4% against a level 54 AV.
- require you to hit the target in the first place, which implies
1) you have to roll for hitting
1b) no matter how much accuracy and tohit you have, there's always a 5% chance that you'll miss
2) on teams, for your -def to be as efficient as +tohit, you have to be the first one who hits the target(s)
2b) no matter how quick you are, you can't hit more than 16 targets at once nor be at two different places at the same time
Additionally, I'm pretty sure most people quoting you were reacting to your claim that -def is significant against AVs. As generally AVs don't have any more defense than a simple minion, being tohit capped against them is ridiculously easy. More defense debuff (or tohitbuffs) past that point does exactly nothing for you.
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The numbers against Mako are actually worse than this. Because he's +4 your effects are only 48% effective against him due to the purple patch so 8.73% not 18.26%.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Let's fight Mako from the STF. He's the most notorious hard to hit enemy, so this is the chance for your defense debuffs to shine.
Everyone on the team is whiffing because he's got defense. You pop Aim and fire off Irradiate, Cosmic Burst, and some other power in the time Aim is active. We have to assume that Aim is capping your chance to hit, ignore the fact that the three attacks would still have a chance to miss, and ignore the possibility that Mako's AoE attacks could kill you in the time it takes to approach and retreat for Irradiate. Using your defender's numbers, that's a total of 121.76% in defense debuffs. Now, assuming that Mako's defense powers do not include any sort of defense debuff resistance of their own, your debuffs now face a 87% resistance for the +4 AV. You can debuff Mako's defense by 18.26%, so long as you never miss an attack in your chain, which will happen on average once every twenty attacks. I think AV fights last around the time it takes to execute twenty attacks. |
I will agree with folks that have said that although /rad does debuff it does not fulfill the role someone is normally looking for when they ask for a debuffer. That said I can sympathize with the OP. Although it hasn't happened in years, back when the game first came out, I would regularly be rejected from teams for being a storm defender and not an empathy defender.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
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Whether defense debuff is better or worse than +ToHit is entirely up to how you want to paint it.
For starters, defense debuffs affect Mastermind multi-pets, Fire Imps, and Gremlins, who going into +4 missions are swinging at enemies who are +5 and +6 to them. It also makes confused enemies better able to hit each other. It also makes Controller AoE holds more likely to hit.
Not to mention, have you taken a look at the builds people put on the boards for comment? That's the ones with the sense to come here to ask how to slot. I would be completely shocked if more than 50% of people at level 50 were able to hit +4 enemies with all of their powers at 95% odds. Some of my own Controllers can't even do it.
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Out of this list, the only thing defense debuffs do that tohit buffs can't do better is allowing confused enemies to hit each other more.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
For starters, defense debuffs affect Mastermind multi-pets, Fire Imps, and Gremlins, who going into +4 missions are swinging at enemies who are +5 and +6 to them. It also makes confused enemies better able to hit each other. It also makes Controller AoE holds more likely to hit.
|
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Getting rejected from a team because you're not an Healzor is silly. That team was looking for a debuffer and would presumably have been happy to invite your stormie. |
Originally Posted by Draggynn
That said I can sympathize with the OP. Although it hasn't happened in years, back when the game first came out, I would regularly be rejected from teams for being a storm defender and not an empathy defender.
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Or any other defender except bubblers and kins. Most any 'troller or corr or mastermind or even a sonic blaster would contribute more debuffs. Hell, I could build a petless mastermind that would contribute 10x better debuffs.
Did I take a wrong turn somewhere into Bizzarro-world defender forums? Defenders are great on teams because they add buffs and debuffs. It's perfectly sensible for teams to try to get a mix of buff and debuff on their teams.
My leadership skills are low, I generally join teams instead of forming them. But if someone asked me what toon to bring and offered a FF defender and any other defender/corr/troller/MM, I'd pick the non-bubbler.
Quote:
Actually, just as with players, cascade failure can't occur until you stack enough defense debuffs to reduce defense below the relative soft cap of the attacker. Players attacking a +4 have an intrinsic tohit of 39%. That means, unless those players have tohit buffs, the soft cap for a +4 AV is actually only 34% defense. Until you debuff them below that much defense, the defense debuffs aren't having any practical effect except to bring defense closer to the soft cap.|
Originally Posted by Siberian_Spring
For defense based mobs (including AVs), it only takes one hit with -def to start a cascade failure.
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In general, tohit buffs are more effective, point for point, than defense debuffs, for the reasons specified in the thread: they don't have to hit a target to be effective, and they cannot be resisted. Although as mentioned some tohit buffs are self buffs only, while a defense debuff automatically assists all attackers. Assuming you can stack enough to make a difference.
Mako, by the way, has I believe 5% unsuppressible defense from hide and 40% defense from Elude when its up. Which means unless you have tohit buffs, the first 11% defense debuffs are only bringing him closer to the soft-floor of 34%. To cascade him, you'd need more than that. Although I'm going from memory here because its been a while since I've looked at Mako.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Out of this list, the only thing defense debuffs do that tohit buffs can't do better is allowing confused enemies to hit each other more.
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Please point me to the blast set with +ToHit in its attacks that affects teammates.
[EDIT: Actually, I'll take a list of 5 any Defender powers that can hit a team of 8 with +ToHit. I can only think of 1 power. There may be more. Not being ugly, legitimately curious.]
P.S. forgot to mention -ToHit largely unbreaks builds that break when you exemp.
Quote:
I think I misinterpreted your post. You began with a statement which led me to believe your list was things that defense debuffs did better than tohit buffs.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Please point me to the blast set with +ToHit in its attacks that affects teammates.
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quantity has nothing to do with quality. It's better to have just Tactics than a bazillion hypothetical tohit powers that would each give 1% tohit... or than a bunch of defense debuffs, incidentally.
Quote:
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. I was only commenting that it sucks when you want in on a team, and you aren't what the team happens to be looking for.
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Originally Posted by anonymoose
Getting rejected from a team because you're not an Healzor is silly. That team was looking for a debuffer and would presumably have been happy to invite your stormie.
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Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Quantity has nothing to do with quality. It's better to have just Tactics than a bazillion hypothetical tohit powers that would each give 1% tohit... or than a bunch of defense debuffs, incidentally.
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Apples and oranges. You're comparing a freebie debuff in a blast to a power more or less devoted exclusively to +ToHit. If we could get +ToHit for the team as a secondary effect to a Blast set I'd play it of course. Tactics itself is an ok power, but you burn a power pick and endurance cost to run it.
Case in point, after slotting 50 IOs:
Tactics: +18.71% ToHit
Irradiate: -59.9% Defense for 10 seconds (which is ~28% on +4s, discounting AVs)
None of this means that I'd call rad blast a "debuff set," but I think the statements about -Defense being "worthless" are incorrect.
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Irradiate requires you to hit in the first place, though. If you're having trouble hitting and need the debuff, how do you realistically expect to have the enemy debuffed?
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Tactics: +18.71% ToHit
Irradiate: -59.9% Defense for 10 seconds (which is ~28% on +4s, discounting AVs) None of this means that I'd call rad blast a "debuff set," but I think the statements about -Defense being "worthless" are incorrect. |
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
We're talking Defenders here. The debuff isn't necessarily for you, it's for the level 36 blaster with yellow SOs that you brought along on the ITF. Or the level 15 scrapper from your SG you brought along on your tip missions.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Irradiate requires you to hit in the first place, though. If you're having trouble hitting and need the debuff, how do you realistically expect to have the enemy debuffed?
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Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
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Quote:
Ok, in this case it's great. But let's go back to the OP where he had full intentions of joining a high end TF and bringing his /rad blast to be the team's debuffer.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
We're talking Defenders here. The debuff isn't necessarily for you, it's for the level 36 blaster with yellow SOs that you brought along on the ITF. Or the level 15 scrapper from your SG you brought along on your tip missions.
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I'm sorry, but he's not debuffing anything in a useful manner.
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Quote:
That wasn't the argument that I was making, and if I'm looking for a debuffer, I'm looking for debuffing of a number of attributes, not just one. Every debuffing defender primary debuffs a number of attributes, and I would not personally consider a FF/Rad a 'debuffer'.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Ok, in this case it's great. But let's go back to the OP where he had full intentions of joining a high end TF and bringing his /rad blast to be the team's debuffer.
I'm sorry, but he's not debuffing anything in a useful manner. |
That does not mean I don't consider the debuffs from /rad to be useful debuffs. They're just one-dimensional, and teams looking for a debuffer usually look for multi-dimensional debuffers.
I, of course, usually have a debuffer on my team already when I'm recruiting and take whoever shows up. Doing the hard stuff means I, ahem, have a cold/rad defender on my team, oddly enough.
Comrade Smersh, KGB Special Section 8 50 Inv/Fire, Fire/Rad, BS/WP, SD/SS, AR/EM
Other 50s: Plant/Thorn, Bots/Traps, DB/SR, MA/Regen, Rad/Dark - All on Virtue.
-Don't just rebel, build a better world, comrade!
Quote:
In addition to what has already been said, you open with Aim for the +50% ToHit for 10 seconds and "trap" everything in the defense debuff state. Or you rest comfortably in the knowledge that enemies planning to do -ToHit to you, which also requires their stacking it, aren't going to do much.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Irradiate requires you to hit in the first place, though. If you're having trouble hitting and need the debuff, how do you realistically expect to have the enemy debuffed?
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I mean, I'm not going to argue that -Defense is a total game changer or that the kind of person broadcasting for debuffs is going to be impressed. But I also can't look at the debuff in Rad and call it completely useless, if Tactics is considered a benchmark of utility.
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Once, a long time ago, I was kicked from a synapse because my emp/ was using tp as a travel power and the leader in the second mish realized that and said it was an end hog and I shouldn't be so stupid. Then I was kicked. Fun stuff.
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Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
In 5+ years of playing on Freedom, I have yet to be kicked from a team due to my powersets. I have yet to see somebody openly kicked due to their powersets.
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
Sorry, I know that was off topic.
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
However, if you were to slot the Achilles Heel: Chance for damage resistance debuff in several of your attacks /Rad can be seriously enhanced. Though it probably means giving up the opportunity for slotting certain defense set bonuses (Thunderstrike and Obliteration).