Ninja/Trick: successful playstyle and build strategies

First of all ... I've got a Ninja/Trick MM who I just got to 50. Along the way, I've experimented with a few different strategies and builds aimed at trying to keep my ninjas alive ... since they're so flimsy defensively. The sad thing is, notions that I'd though would "work" turned out to be too complicated or situational to be all that effective in actual play.

The first strategy I used, starting at Level 8, was the use of Teleport Foe combined with Flash Arrow so as to be able to abduct hostiles and "Feed them to the Ninjas." This was remarkably successful, solo, since I almost never had to resummon and allowed me to control aggro quite effectively. The problem is, it was SLOW and frustrating to employ (because Teleport Foe misses *way more often* than it should when slotted for Accuracy), and the recharge time on Teleport Foe is pretty darn long (espcially when you MISS or the power claims you're Out of Range).

The next strategy I used was one where I tried to maximize the amount of +Defense I could stack onto my ninjas ... through Maneuvers and Grant Invisibility ... along with maximizing Tohit Debuff ... through Flash Arrow, and Nightfall and Soul Tentacles from Soul Mastery. On paper it looked "decent" since the stacking of +Defense and -ToHit resulted in "respectable" numbers. In practice however, it was just a bridge too far. The duration on Grant Invisibility was just "too short" (meaning I needed to spend way too much time reapplying it for it to be "effective" in play, particularly with steamrolling teams on SFs and TFs) and it cost too much Endurance to apply to 6 Pets in a round robin o' buffing. I could go from Full Blue to Almost Empty just by applying Grant Invisibility to my ninjas ... which then left me "unable" to contribute much of anything from my Trick Arrow secondary to the fights I found myself in, because I had to wait to recover my Endurance (or Rest). This got OLD ... fast. If you think bubbling is tedious with Force Fields ... try Grant Invisibility.

The other problem with the +Def/-ToHit strategy was that the Debuff side of the equation was really hard to use effectively. Nightfall and Soul Tentacles have somewhat narrow cones (20 and 25 degrees, respectively), which made positioning a matter of paramount importance ... and I didn't have room for Hover (which would have made that positioning soooooo much simpler!). In SFs and TFs, I kept getting into situations where Nightfall and Soul Tentacles just didn't have either the arc, or the distance, that I needed in order to make these powers really effective. Stuff kept stubbornly staying outside the cone(s) ... or got MISSED ... and then it would be a long recharge cycle before these powers came back up again.

And then there was the other side of the "bridge too far" with this strategy ... it was just Too Complicated. It required buffing 6 Pets, and keeping them buffed, with Grant Invisibility (which takes 7 seconds just to animate, not counting delays for recharge, and devours Endurance if not slotted for reduction) ... and having the luxury of time to be able to debuff hostiles using Flash Arrow, Nightfall and Soul Tentacles ... which combined have a total animation time of 5.5 seconds just to debuff things. That was simply way too slow. And the debuff cycle required living targets and "perfect" positioning on my part in order to achieve maximum effectiveness. In practice, it turned out to just be "too many plates" to keep spinning all at the same time. It was exhausting and tedious to play, and worse ... it was inconsistent in performance due to the build's dependence on situational factors. Yeah, my ninjas stayed alive longer ... but not a whole lot longer ... and I was spending all my time starved for Endurance, and couldn't use my Trick Arrow secondary all that effectively due to the constant Endurance crunch.

So after playing through most of the 40s with THAT build, I figured I simply MUST be "doing it wrong" and had to figure out some other build (and strategy) which would allow me to be more successful. The problem is ... Trick Arrow really doesn't synergize all that well (in my experience) with a MM strategy based on NOT drawing aggro onto yourself. After spending 45 levels trying NOT to draw aggro myself, I figured it might be time to try Tankerminding instead.



Tankerminding as a Ninja/Trick is a really odd bundle. Your only damage mitigation is either in your Epic Pool (usually S/L Resistance), Set Bonuses (such as +Defense), through Debuffing, and of course ... Bodyguard Mode. The weird thing is, it is possible with Ninja/Trick to be a very effective Tankermind, simply because with Trick Arrow you've got multiple options for being able to Kite hostiles effectively, keeping them at range where they can do minimal damage to you. Furthermore, when Tankerminding, you're trying to keep aggro OFF your ninjas ... which means that their pitifully pathetic (lack of) defenses becomes less relevant than it otherwise might be. Even better yet ... YOU ... can enhance your Defense stats well beyond what you'd ever be able to stack up on your ninjas through Auras (Maneuvers, Procs, etc.), which means that on balance they take LESS damage via Bodyguard Mode, when they don't grab aggro, because your own personal Defense is making incoming attacks MISS more often than they otherwise would, and the incoming damage is "spread around" so as to not overwhelm (easily) any single ninja (including yourself).

I've now got Provoke (Ranged AoE Taunt) from the Presence Pool as well as Aid Other and Aid Self from the Medicine Pool, along with the full suite of Leadership Powers (all of them) and a switch from the Click powers in Soul Mastery to the Toggles and Soul Storm (to give me a second Hold for making quick work of Bosses, or a pair of Lieutenants/Minions). I had to drop Smoke Flash from my Primary in order to fit everything ... and I still don't have Hover ... but the overall result on my build is a dramatic increase in effectiveness and efficiency on teams. Because I'm keeping my ninjas "leashed" in Bodyguard Mode all the time now, by default, I'm spending far less time "worrying" about them and able devote far more of my attention (and keyclicks) on deploying my Trick Arrow secondary to maximum effectiveness. I essentially leave my ninjas in Bodyguard and let them "autopilot" while I devote all of my mental workload to figuring out how, when and where I'm going to be debuffing the opposition and keeping track of what's recharged already and what isn't yet.

Strangely enough, I think I'm playing even more aggressively now, as a Tankermind build, than I did before, simply because now I've got a build which allows me to maintain my focus on what's in front of me "out there" instead of dividing my time with "flying the guages" trying to keep my ninjas (or myself) from either taking damage or gaining aggro. And oddly enough, it doesn't take much for Trick Arrow to be rather successful at Tankerminding.

As we all know, damage is heavier in melee than at range ... and Trick Arrow has multiple very good ways of keeping things away from you. Entangling Arrow has a nice long duration on it out of the box and is an ideal "snap response" to any runners (or potential runners). Glue Arrow makes Kiting a trivial matter, where you can literally run rings around hostiles that have aggroed onto you so as to stay out of melee range, limiting them to ranged attacks only. And of course, Oil Slick Arrow is both a huge AoE Knockdown but also a massive Burn Patch that can devour hordes of hostiles and which can be used both reactively (once everything's been herded up) or proactively for setting Pull Traps involving corners. And the best part is ... you don't NEED to combo stack these things together in order for them to be effective. They're effective "enough" all on their own (but are, of course, even MORE effective in combination).



So at this point, I've come to the conclusion that ONE of the more successful builds and strategies for playing a Ninja/Trick MM (in PvE) revolves around leveraging the Tankermind/Bodyguard playstyle, since it seems to be among the more effective ways to limit the amount of damage your ninjas are subjected to, thereby extending their lifespans and effectiveness (even if they aren't directly attacking all the time).

What I would like to know though is ... have other people found any other build strategies and playstyles which are also quite effective when playing a Ninja/Trick MM? And if so ... what is the mentality behind your decisions, and the results in play?

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Your build would be nice to see. Good info / insight. It sad you had to go through so many levels of issues before having the tools available to be able to accomplish what you were looking to do all along.

I think all Masterminds have some sort of issues until that magic level comes where you can finally get something that has some sort of synergy or fluidity. Unfortunately its not until the much higher levels that at least for me I feel well rounded. I sort of feel limping along until "that" level is reached. That level of course varies from player to player and from each type of Mastermind.

I feel Ninja and Trick Arrow don't mesh well because TA has many ways to immb/slow which benefits range characters but Ninjas run in.

Theme-wise, it sort of fits, although they should have given throwing start attacks in Ninja Set and not archery.

This is definitely the best strategy. Ninja/Trick Arrow works well with Provoke because it has a superior ability to hold agro. Most MMs just spam Provoke and think they are tanking. But this is a stunted strategy because the Taunt effect is a threat multiplier, and the only threat that is often being generated is from Provoke itself. Without additional threat-generating damage or debuffs originating from the MM, a pet will quickly strip agro.

Luckily, Trick Arrow offers some potent AoE debuffs causing a Ninja/TA with Provoke to generate a ton of agro. Every single debuff that is placed on a foe is generating threat (aside from Flash Arrow of course). This treat is then being multiplied by the 8-16 second mag 4 taunt in Provoke.

If I were to offer any advice, it would be to take Fistful of Arrows to further generate threat; AoE damage + debuffs + Provoke as a threat multiplier will work even better than what you have going on now. I would also strongly recommend taking Smoke Flash for the Oni or your Jounin-- it is a really powerful skill that doubles damage for 10 seconds, which is a huge boost if you have positioned the Oni in melee to use its sword attacks or ever seen a critical Fire breath decimate a spawn.

You might love Oppressive Gloom, but because you are slowing/immobilizing and kiting while generating threat, it seems to me that a PBAoE toggle stun is not all that useful. Removing OG and adding Fistful of Arrows would be more conducive to the play style you posted. Doing that and taking Scorpion Shield for SM/L defense would be very viable, as it could elevate your protection to the most common vector to above 36% defense.

Edict of the Master 5% defense is also a great benefit for Ninjas-- certainly worth losing some AoE defense on your MM for.

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My Bots/Traps works best keeping the Bots in bodyguard mode and using Provoke to get the aggro on myself.

As long as the bots stay close enough to me to take advantage of Maneuvers and my forcefield drone, they stay alive and well.

I'll have to re-apply bodyguard mode when they stray off.

On my nin/ta i just alpha with PG Arrow and then glue followed by res debuffs and then rock a combo of aid other and aid self, spamming smoke bombs on my jounin if i have the time and end. I don't solo +4x8 but i destroy bosses and have a great time doing it (i also have vengeance for ANGRY NINJAS!!) Oh and i have both pet uniques if that's what not what everyone else is doing.

I have my bots/pain and thugs/ff for hardcore business, my nin/ta is casual and a lot more "End him, my minions!!" i love my bots and thugs, but ninjas are FRIKKIN NINJAS man!

Redlynne,

Wow Thanks for the post. I have really been going back and forth on how to make this Ninja/TA work well. I love my ninjas, but they love dying as much as they love killing.

My current setup is (soloing) to resummon my Genin every other fight. In groups, I keep them mobbed around the healer most times and still wind up resummoning virtually every time the summon is available. They can dart out, kill something, but then its back to the healer - usually minus 1 genin.

Since I spend all of my time controlling them, running them around and my endurance is ticking away maintaining Manuevers, Tactics and the frequent resummons - I am not really using much in TA.

I really like the take you have on this and I am going to be trying it out as soon as possible.

I like the info. But was just curious what is the max setting you can do with this build. It's not about running 8/4 setting, but it would be nice to know where your limits are at for someone looking to play this build or AT.

Gratz on running a nin/ta all the way to 50 you obviously have a lot of patience.
I gave up at about 14 (my 50s are all thugs)

Drawing aggro to yourself so the pets can live is really not my idea of "balance". If melee pets can't survive even 5s after going in, the problem is the pets, not the USERS! I hate to say it! People who tell me I should take Taunt so my pets can live is not my idea of Mastermind/Summoner. If I want to taunt and draw aggro to myself, I'll play Tanker. No offense.

I like Ninjas but Genin's squishiness (or pets in general) is really driving me nuts.

I have a lvl 46 Ninja/FF. Last week I was bored so I took him out (after shelving him for two years) and I did regular mish with just Jounins and Oni. I was curious to see what my performance is like if I only need to babysit 3 pets. Well, damage is definitely less but it is a bit more tolerable as I don't have to constantly Aid Other Genins.

Redlynne, this is great information to see, and I would have missed it were it not for the new replies. Any chance you might get this placed as a guide? The information about build and tactics for Ninjas/Trick Arrow is invaluable, and worthwhile for all MM players.

Uh ... I wouldn't call this little effort in sharing of mine a "guide" per se. At best it falls under the heading of "what worked for me" so I'd think that calling it a "guide" would be pushing it. "

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...