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I'd say the problem is more the duration of the power. Targeted AOE that can keep all the minions out of the picture would be good.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I've noticed for some time now that the vast majorty of stun powers in game are shockingly lackluster. I mean, what's so fantastic about, say;
Dark Pit Targeted AoE End: 13 Acc: 60% Recharge: 60 secs Duration: 8.94 Mag: 2 I mean...mag 2? Thats pathetic. That only works on Minions, doesn't it? Possibly Lts. Ok, so in a Dark/Dark you can stack it with Howling Twilight. But the majority of AoE Stuns seem incredibly...meh. Maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone have any better numbers or experiences with them? |
Now admittedly if you can take out all the minions with AOEs in that time, all is good, but also not always the case. :/
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Are you *just* looking at those, or at all powers with stun components?
I *think* the concern might be stackability (though longer duration would be nice.) Throw an Energy melee tank/brute in there and everything's getting stunned on almost every hit if it's not staggering already.
*shrug* I don't know. I almost never take Dark Pit as it is - and I'm the guy who *likes* taking oddball powers like Black Hole.
Well, I'll do a quick run-down of Powers that look fine, some that could use a little duration tweak, and those that make me go "Wait, what?"
Good Camp;
Stunning Shot - Archery
Beanbag - Assault Rifle
Scramble Thoughts - Psi Blast
Cosmic Burst - Rad Blast
Screech - Sonic Blast
Stun - Energy Melee/Manipulation
Energy Melee/Manipulation as a whole
Taser - Devices
So-So Camp;
Suppresive Fire - Dual Pistols - Duration isn't on par with other blaster stuns
Stalagmites - Earth Control - Why such low accuracy?
Flashfire - Fire Control - See above
Whirling Hands - Energy Melee - Only mag 2. Any good reason for that?
Lol-whut? Camp;
Fault - Stone Melee - Low acc AND low mag? Ever wonder why you rarely see this power?
Handclap - Super Strength - Oh, snap, same again.
Dark Pit - Dark Blast - Low acc, low mag, high end cost. Just...why?
Pulsar - Luminous Blast - Another one. Someone point out the upsides to me, please?
Photon Grenade - Robotics - It costs HOW much? And does WHAT damage? And you call THAT a stun? Please, if I laugh any harder I'll crack a rib...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I don't necessarily agree with a lot of your choices here, though I would not be upset if they were buffed (unless they made other aspects of the power noticeably worse). A lot of your concern is mostly for AoE stuns, AoE controls are almost never as effective as single target controls, especially those with a noticeable damage component. Siren's Song, Tenebrous Tentacles, and certain APP/PPP choices are an anomaly in this regard.
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The main draw here is that this power is a choice between stun or hold, versatility means sacrifice, and in this case duration suffers.| Suppresive Fire - Dual Pistols - Duration isn't on par with other blaster stuns |
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Stalagmites - Earth Control - Why such low accuracy? Flashfire - Fire Control - See above |
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| Whirling Hands - Energy Melee - Only mag 2. Any good reason for that? |
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Lol-whut? Camp; Fault - Stone Melee - Low acc AND low mag? Ever wonder why you rarely see this power? |
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Handclap - Super Strength - Oh, snap, same again. Pulsar - Luminous Blast - Another one. Someone point out the upsides to me, please? |
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| Dark Pit - Dark Blast - Low acc, low mag, high end cost. Just...why? |
But the fact that, like Petrifying Gaze, it has absolutely ZERO secondary effects makes it of questionable use. At least Fault/Hand Clap/Pulsar/Lightning Clap have a knockdown/back component! I would love to see Dark Pit (and Petrifying Gaze for that matter) get a to-hit debuff or something.
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| Photon Grenade - Robotics - It costs HOW much? And does WHAT damage? And you call THAT a stun? Please, if I laugh any harder I'll crack a rib... |
Worst power in the game.
That is one of the major reasons I refuse to roll a Robotics MM. And I LOVE the idea of a Pulse Rifle. Until they do something cool like raise its damage or add a -regen component to the personal attacks I will never roll one.
And it's such a cool power idea, too! Why not at least have knockdown? It's such a piddly power I can't believe nobody caught that during testing and said "this is the worst power in the game, why would anyone use it after using it once and realizing that it is the worst power in the game?"
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Even so, it can only be one or the other, and you can only have maximum of six slots in it, same as any other power. What does knocking 2 secs off the duration achieve, other than mild annoyance?|
Originally Posted by Lurker Hunter
I don't necessarily agree with a lot of your choices here, though I would not be upset if they were buffed (unless they made other aspects of the power noticeably worse). A lot of your concern is mostly for AoE stuns, AoE controls are almost never as effective as single target controls, especially those with a noticeable damage component. Siren's Song, Tenebrous Tentacles, and certain APP/PPP choices are an anomaly in this regard.
The main draw here is that this power is a choice between stun or hold, versatility means sacrifice, and in this case duration suffers. |
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| Don't all AoE controls suffer from this? Besides, stacking stuns and immobilize is effectively a hold. I like the low accuracy, it forces the user to invest in it. |
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| It's a PBAoE damage attack. What other non-nuke/rez damage power has a mag 3 stun on it? The perk is that you're doing moderate damage to everything around you. |
-Smashing Blow - Kinetic Melee tier 2 power, mag 3 stun chance
-Cobra Strike - Martial Arts, again tier 2 power, mag 3 stun
-Bone Smasher, Energy Transfer and Total Focus, tier 3, 8 and 9 in EM respectively. All mag 3, decent duration.
Whirling hands has long been lauded as one of the bigger fail components in the EM set, especially since the ET nerf (Not going into that, but I know I agree with those who see it as such).
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| I love this power, not because of the stun but because of its knockdown, which even temporarily disables most bosses. Here the stun is like a neat extra effect, and there's a 50% chance to bag an Lt as well. |
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| Here it's not knockdown, but knockback, which is harder to use effectively. Used as a short-range cone rather than a PBAoE, you can get enemies neatly packed into a corner. The stun here is a bonus. |
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I agree here, but for the devil's advocate's sake I'll point out that it's an AoE control power in a non-control set. Dark Pit combined with Tenebrous Tentacles is basically a hold (stun + immob), I can see why it's a mag 2 stun. But the fact that, like Petrifying Gaze, it has absolutely ZERO secondary effects makes it of questionable use. At least Fault/Hand Clap/Pulsar/Lightning Clap have a knockdown/back component! I would love to see Dark Pit (and Petrifying Gaze for that matter) get a to-hit debuff or something. |
The thing has a high end cost (13), low mag (2), terrible acc (60%) and rediculous times (60 sec base recharge, 8.94 secs duration). Oh, and it does no damage. Sorry, how many penalties is that worth again? Petrifying gaze may be ST and have no -ToHit, but at least it has mag 3, decent times and standard accuracy.
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Worst power in the game? Worst power in the game. That is one of the major reasons I refuse to roll a Robotics MM. And I LOVE the idea of a Pulse Rifle. Until they do something cool like raise its damage or add a -regen component to the personal attacks I will never roll one. And it's such a cool power idea, too! Why not at least have knockdown? It's such a piddly power I can't believe nobody caught that during testing and said "this is the worst power in the game, why would anyone use it after using it once and realizing that it is the worst power in the game?" |
And yes, the AoEs suck in MM sets (maye not Demons so much, at least they have -res)
But Group Fly still sucks worse. Or anything with intangibility
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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In theory all DP powers get worse debuff effects compared to other blast sets to make up for the increased flexibility. However I agree that this shouldn't really have been applied to mez durations.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Suppresive Fire - Dual Pistols - Duration isn't on par with other blaster stuns
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Stalagmites - Earth Control - Why such low accuracy? Flashfire - Fire Control - See above |
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| Whirling Hands - Energy Melee - Only mag 2. Any good reason for that? |
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| Fault - Stone Melee - Low acc AND low mag? Ever wonder why you rarely see this power? |
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| Handclap - Super Strength - Oh, snap, same again. |
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| Dark Pit - Dark Blast - Low acc, low mag, high end cost. Just...why? |
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| Pulsar - Luminous Blast - Another one. Someone point out the upsides to me, please? |
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| Photon Grenade - Robotics - It costs HOW much? And does WHAT damage? And you call THAT a stun? Please, if I laugh any harder I'll crack a rib... |
Overall I don't think stuns have a problem. The issue is that most of them turn up either in sets which do not have a control focus (i.e. various attack based sets) or as secondary effects on attack powers and as such they are not going to be as strong as a Controller's Hold powers.
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Except that Pulsar is a PBAoE, a particularly lame one as pointed out. Therefore the logic there doubly fails on the balance part. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
This one I agree with. Warshades get Gravitic Emanation which is significantly more powerful and I'm not sure why. I think the problem is that the devs still have a bit of ranged = good mentality in their balance methods so Pulsar being a Targeted AoE is considered "better" than Gravitic Emanation's large cone. |
Gravitic; Huge, long ranged cone, Mag 3 Stun
Pulsar; Mediocre PBAoE with a Mag 2 Stun
Yeah, balanced....riiight.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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When it comes to awkward stun powers, I believe Hand Clap is up there in "What were they thinking?" land. PBAoE knockback in general is about the worst application of knockback in the entire game, twice so on a melee AT that's usually surrounded by enemies and often draws buffs from enemies around. And the tradeoff for that is very poor. Knockback, which is decent but not all that, especially given the power's recharge, and short, unreliable stun.
People often suggest using this as a cone. Well, if we're going to be using it as a cone, why couldn't it have been, you know, a cone. Maybe then its stats could suck a little less if that's what we use it for anyway.
The most use I've had of Hand Clap was on a Sewer Trial today, where I used it to knock bosses off the catwalks so team-mates can snag Thermite and Particle cannons, and then later to knock respawning Rikti out of the generators they spawned inside, in both cases using the power as a directed cone and disregarding its stun component entirely.
Normally, I almost never touch it because it instantly shuts down all benefit I get from Invincibility.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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one wonders why wormhole isn't in this list
Wormhole: heaviest stun in the game, place the baddies where you want them, and my brother found that if you mass-immob or hold them first, that they don't bounce.
Even as the heaviest stun in the game, the main aspect here though is "I choose where the battle happens."
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
Just guesses on a couple:
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These are *probably* because (a) they got hit with the Control AOE hammer some years back and (b) we have so many OTHER controls on those sets. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Stalagmites - Earth Control - Why such low accuracy?
Flashfire - Fire Control - See above |
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| Whirling Hands - Energy Melee - Only mag 2. Any good reason for that? |
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Lol-whut? Camp; Fault - Stone Melee - Low acc AND low mag? Ever wonder why you rarely see this power? |
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Good point, Pulsar is a Thunderclap clone isn't it? Misremembered there.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Except that Pulsar is a PBAoE, a particularly lame one as pointed out. Therefore the logic there doubly fails on the balance part.
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It's great to have a single power be a stun or a hold, you can apply the proper ammo type to stack holds depending on your teammates' powersets/your secondary powerset, that kind of versatility doesn't exist with the other blast stuns.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Even so, it can only be one or the other, and you can only have maximum of six slots in it, same as any other power. What does knocking 2 secs off the duration achieve, other than mild annoyance?
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| The AoE Immobs sure as hell don't. The AoE Holds are all without fail Mag 3 and not Mag 2. I also don't agree with the holds having such ludicrously long recharges for such piddly durations, but, eh, thats a whole other kettle of fish. |
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Well, let's see; -Smashing Blow - Kinetic Melee tier 2 power, mag 3 stun chance -Cobra Strike - Martial Arts, again tier 2 power, mag 3 stun -Bone Smasher, Energy Transfer and Total Focus, tier 3, 8 and 9 in EM respectively. All mag 3, decent duration. Whirling hands has long been lauded as one of the bigger fail components in the EM set, especially since the ET nerf (Not going into that, but I know I agree with those who see it as such). |
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| Hmm, see the chance for extra Mag 1 now. Even so, given thats not a given it could at least have higher accuracy for what it does. |
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| I for one would happily trade it for what Imperious has, which does damage. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either. |
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I don't agree with the Immob+Stun thing. Honestly, beside some staggering (which, admittedly, is sometimes sidestepped by glitchy A.I. speed-stumbling away) Stuns are the exact same as Holds. The thing has a high end cost (13), low mag (2), terrible acc (60%) and rediculous times (60 sec base recharge, 8.94 secs duration). Oh, and it does no damage. Sorry, how many penalties is that worth again? Petrifying gaze may be ST and have no -ToHit, but at least it has mag 3, decent times and standard accuracy. |
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I have the two normal attacks on my namesake, Alpha, and love them. I hate the endurance costs on all MM attacks given the damage they (don't) do, but thats a whole other thread. And yes, the AoEs suck in MM sets (maye not Demons so much, at least they have -res) |
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But Group Fly still sucks worse. Or anything with intangibility
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I really do not see why people think Dark Pit is rubbish. It gives you the ability to stun most or all of the minions in a spawn (spending on how they are clustered) at range and it's in a Blast set.|
Originally Posted by Lurker Hunter
You're definitely right about Dark Pit, it's rubbish. I can just see some justification for why it is rubbish, not that I think it should remain so.
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Now I agree it's going to be less useful when paired with a Buff/Debuff set that already provides decent control (such as Dark Maisma) but for some of the other Buff/Debuff sets it's a very useful tool. For example on an Empathy/Dark Defender Dark Pit can provide a very nice reduction in incoming damage. Plus if Blasters ever get Dark Blast (please devs?) I'm sure the ability to mez a spawn's worth of minions would be useful.
I can see saying that the power needs to be rebalanced with a different duration/recharge/accuracy/endurance equation but I just can't understand why people think it's useless.
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That's the price of versatility.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Suppresive Fire - Dual Pistols - Duration isn't on par with other blaster stuns
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Stalagmites - Earth Control - Why such low accuracy?
Flashfire - Fire Control - See above |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Whirling Hands - Energy Melee - Only mag 2. Any good reason for that?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Fault - Stone Melee - Low acc AND low mag? Ever wonder why you rarely see this power?
Handclap - Super Strength - Oh, snap, same again. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Dark Pit - Dark Blast - Low acc, low mag, high end cost. Just...why?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Pulsar - Luminous Blast - Another one. Someone point out the upsides to me, please?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Photon Grenade - Robotics - It costs HOW much? And does WHAT damage? And you call THAT a stun? Please, if I laugh any harder I'll crack a rib...
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So no, I don't think Stuns need help.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Well, Gravity control has a phase power, a ranged damage attack with a long animation, and a ST knock up power.|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
one wonders why wormhole isn't in this list
Wormhole: heaviest stun in the game, place the baddies where you want them, and my brother found that if you mass-immob or hold them first, that they don't bounce. Even as the heaviest stun in the game, the main aspect here though is "I choose where the battle happens." |
Then there's the fact that immobilize is pretty much the weakest type of mez in the game (because everything has ranged attacks). all in all, Wormhole seems like it's there to help make up for how, otherwise, weak gravity is compared to other control sets.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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The price of versatility is far too high, when there's almost no place in the entire game where a stun is better than a hold. Dual Pistols pays far, far, FAR too much for supposed versatility that doesn't come into play nearly as often as people seem to think it should, ESPECIALLY in Suppressive Fire. Make it just a hold and give it a decent duration. Right now it's just a particularly crappy control power with no real upside.
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Originally Posted by Vanden
That's the price of versatility.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I....|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
one wonders why wormhole isn't in this list
Wormhole: heaviest stun in the game, place the baddies where you want them, and my brother found that if you mass-immob or hold them first, that they don't bounce. Even as the heaviest stun in the game, the main aspect here though is "I choose where the battle happens." |
*checks*
Damn. I totally missed that one. Yeah, that goes in the 'Good Stuff' camp for sure.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Which I still think is absolute bloody cobblers, but thats a whole other thread...
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Originally Posted by Vanden
As for damage and end cost, it's only weak because it's Masterminds using it. The damage is pretty much spot-on standard for a targeted AoE blast, and MMs use more end on all their powers than other ATs.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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You need to say things like this more often, Tech! I enjoy reading them so very much |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Which I still think is absolute bloody cobblers, but thats a whole other thread...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Immob's combined with use of local terrain make an excellent tool especially since most mass immobs are targeted AoEs that deal damage and recharge quicker than mass holds or stuns, cast it at the right time and angle yourself around a pillar or some such and you can focus on one or two enemies at a time and continue using that mass immob to keep baddies stuck behind terrain...|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Well, Gravity control has a phase power, a ranged damage attack with a long animation, and a ST knock up power.
Then there's the fact that immobilize is pretty much the weakest type of mez in the game (because everything has ranged attacks). all in all, Wormhole seems like it's there to help make up for how, otherwise, weak gravity is compared to other control sets. |
also, if you hit it right, you can immob a large quantity and leave them stuck while you draw off the remainder...
rinse and repeat to whittle down a large mob all on your own with little to no risk
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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No. If you don't like the power, don't use it. The versatility thing not coming into play is the fault of the user, mostly because people prefer teams that steamroll anything regardless of what ammo you're using. If that's your bag then that's fine, slap on Incendiary Rounds and never bother to think twice, but solo players and 2-4 man groups see a lot of benefit from utilizing different ammo types.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The price of versatility is far too high, when there's almost no place in the entire game where a stun is better than a hold. Dual Pistols pays far, far, FAR too much for supposed versatility that doesn't come into play nearly as often as people seem to think it should, ESPECIALLY in Suppressive Fire. Make it just a hold and give it a decent duration. Right now it's just a particularly crappy control power with no real upside.
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And what situation, pray tell, is a stun superior to a hold? What situation that's so prevalent or important that it justifies such crappy duration?
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Originally Posted by Lurker Hunter
No. If you don't like the power, don't use it. The versatility thing not coming into play is the fault of the user, mostly because people prefer teams that steamroll anything regardless of what ammo you're using. If that's your bag then that's fine, slap on Incendiary Rounds and never bother to think twice, but solo players and 2-4 man groups see a lot of benefit from utilizing different ammo types.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Never understood why this is a separate MM attack when the Prot Bots get it as an upgrade
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Photon Grenade - Robotics - It costs HOW much? And does WHAT damage? And you call THAT a stun? Please, if I laugh any harder I'll crack a rib...
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http://www.scene-and-heard.com/cov/covsig.jpg
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Maybe your other set is one with stuns, and you want to stack them. Energy Manipulation is both stun-heavy and popular among Blasters.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
And what situation, pray tell, is a stun superior to a hold? What situation that's so prevalent or important that it justifies such crappy duration?
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The Spiritual branch of Alpha powers are desirable for their recharge buffs, and Stun happens to be one of its sub-buffs. Meanwhile, Hold enhancement is on the probably-the-least-popular Nerve branch.
Stun IO sets are, broadly speaking, superior to Hold sets in terms of set bonuses.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are enemies resistant to Holds that aren't resistant to Stuns.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
I've noticed for some time now that the vast majorty of stun powers in game are shockingly lackluster. I mean, what's so fantastic about, say;
Dark Pit
Targeted AoE
End: 13
Acc: 60%
Recharge: 60 secs
Duration: 8.94
Mag: 2
I mean...mag 2? Thats pathetic. That only works on Minions, doesn't it? Possibly Lts. Ok, so in a Dark/Dark you can stack it with Howling Twilight.
But the majority of AoE Stuns seem incredibly...meh.
Maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone have any better numbers or experiences with them?