Animations as a Detriment to Powers
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-01-09 20:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
This has been bought up by various people quite a few times, especially in reference to Dual Pistols. The simple fact is that the devs choose not to factor animation time into the equations they use to balance powers which is a pity since at high levels you normally have enough powers that animation time is a concern.
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I figured that it probably has and that bugs me. It seems like it'd be as simple as not requiring secondary powersets to be barehanded, but as it is the powerset is just not as good as my Fire/Rad Corruptor in any way when I like the idea of dual pistols immensely.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
This has been bought up by various people quite a few times, especially in reference to Dual Pistols. The simple fact is that the devs choose not to factor animation time into the equations they use to balance powers which is a pity since at high levels you normally have enough powers that animation time is a concern.
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Huh?|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
This has been bought up by various people quite a few times, especially in reference to Dual Pistols. The simple fact is that the devs choose not to factor animation time into the equations they use to balance powers which is a pity since at high levels you normally have enough powers that animation time is a concern.
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Text string baked in: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/digest/ind...y=1&european=1
Text string animation: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/digest/ind...y=1&european=1
Text string baked animation: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/digest/ind...y=1&european=1
Text string baked in animation time: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/digest/ind...y=1&european=1
According to Bab's in these sources here: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/digest/ind...1&post=8704019
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[10.65] Re: Weapon Draw: Myth versus Facts? Attack Time = Weapon draw animation time + Attack Animation time. |
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Well, that's kinda of what I'm asking. I haven't seen anything to suggest that animation time is not a factor to the devs when they decide how much damage a power should do.|
Originally Posted by Vidszhite
I'm not sure what your point is. The point we're making is that animation time is not a factor to the devs when they decide how much damage a power should do. This has nothing to do with redraw.
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I have seen posts suggesting that animation, which is part of the attack time, which is used to balance how much damage a power should do.
I have seen the term baked in used to describe the powers animation and draw stat, in the context of being used as part of the damage calculation.
If I've missed a post from some dev somewhere sayin that yes, powers were balanced for damage without including attack time, animation, or anything else, fine... That just doesn't mesh with that I've heard and see posted before.
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Sounds like a simple solution on paper. The problem is, to avoid redraw, they'd have to make a whole separate set of animations for every secondary power in every secondary powerset, for every primary with a drawn weapon.|
Originally Posted by dhaunae
I figured that it probably has and that bugs me. It seems like it'd be as simple as not requiring secondary powersets to be barehanded, but as it is the powerset is just not as good as my Fire/Rad Corruptor in any way when I like the idea of dual pistols immensely.
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Since that's just not a good use of dev time, all secondaries must instead be barehanded, and the only attacks that get the above treatment are brawl and some of the starting Origin powers.
Je saist, I deleted my old post because I realized the OP was talking about redraw, but some of the others were not. In that context, your post is actually informative.
BAB had a solution to the redraw problem, but apparently shields didn't want to play nice with the solution.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=2288608|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Well, that's kinda of what I'm asking. I haven't seen anything to suggest that animation time is not a factor to the devs when they decide how much damage a power should do.
I have seen posts suggesting that animation, which is part of the attack time, which is used to balance how much damage a power should do. |
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| I have seen the term baked in used to describe the powers animation and draw stat, in the context of being used as part of the damage calculation. |
seems some of my confusion over what is calculated and is not has explained to me... from a PM
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So I sit corrected.| Mostly, animation time was not taken into consideration. Geko's formulas did not include them. (dev) made some attempts to alter that, but with limited success. There are some powers that include it: Specifically claws, Villain Epic Archtypes, a few others, but that's it. |
Some powers do include animations times in damage calc's.
Other's don't.
The PM'er also suggested that maybe this was something to clonk Black Scorpion and Synapse on.
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It's pretty obvious if you look at the numbers. The relationship between Damage, Endurance and Recharge follows a standard formula in most cases (there are some exceptions such as Sonic Blast, Claws and Fire Blast/Melee which have modifications to the formula as part of their powerset bonus).|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Well, that's kinda of what I'm asking. I haven't seen anything to suggest that animation time is not a factor to the devs when they decide how much damage a power should do.
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I realize the OP was talking about redraw which is a slightly different case, but I was bringing up the general point that the devs don't really consider animation time. For example compare Executioner's Shot, Cosmic Burst and Power Burst. Same damage, same endurance cost and same recharge but they all have different animation times.
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Redraw is not a "nerf". It's a limitation of the game. You don't redraw your weapon because the developers feel that it's necessary to impose some arbitrary penalty on powers which use weapon animations. It's just the way the game works. In order for any weapon to remain drawn when a weaponless power is used, there has to be a corresponding animation which displays that specific weapon in that specific stance when that specific weaponless power is used.|
Originally Posted by dhaunae
So why is there a nerf on the powerset in the form of an animation that was neat the first couple times I saw it?
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Elimination of redraw would require the creation or reworking of several thousand animations, perhaps as few as 10,000-15,000 or as many as 40,000-50,000, or creating an entirely new animation system from the ground up and shoehorning it in place of the existing animation system.
Additionally, redraw does not increase the more frequently you use a power, as you implied. The time required to draw a weapon does not increase, the time required to animate the weapon does not increase, the time spent rooted while the weapon animation plays does not increase. It is exactly the same, barring latency issues (high latencies, which result in delays between server communications, can root you for longer periods, but that's true of weaponless powers as well), every time you use a power.
Finally, the maximum known value for redraw time is 0.66s, according to a post made by BackAlleyBrawler a few years ago (no longer available due to forum purges. whether there are powers with longer redraw periods, he never stated, nor has any other developer). So even factoring in server response time, unless you're deliberately alternating between weapon-using powers and weaponless powers, your actual loss of DPS or action time due to redraw is negligible. It is not difficult to minimize, or even outright eliminate, the effects of redraw on an attack sequence simply by not mixing your weapon-using and weaponless powers randomly or thoughtlessly.
Lumi: CoHTitan's copy of City of Data may have that particular post in the Digest: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/digest/
I don't know much about the ins and out of the game but using Demorecord you can set up scenes where Dual Pistols can only be used with any animation in the game. This screengrab is from running a dual pistol through the dual blades animations
I can also get a katana to display in one hand and a any Dual Pistol gun model. I haven't figured out how to use the other Dual Blade weapon models yet with a handgun.
I'll let others speculate why you can do that with demorecord and not in the game.
The OP's problem is he has a click intensive set paired with Dual Pistols. I paired DP with Storm which allows me to spend more time with the pistols out while my pseudo pets do some work.
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All you are doing is calling another weapon model right? Can you do the non weapon sets with weapons in your hands?
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
I don't know much about the ins and out of the game but using Demorecord you can set up scenes where Dual Pistols can only be used with any animation in the game. This screengrab is from running a dual pistol through the dual blades animations
I can also get a katana to display in one hand and a any Dual Pistol gun model. I haven't figured out how to use the other Dual Blade weapon models yet with a handgun. I'll let others speculate why you can do that with demorecord and not in the game. The OP's problem is he has a click intensive set paired with Dual Pistols. I paired DP with Storm which allows me to spend more time with the pistols out while my pseudo pets do some work. |
thats two frames of bat in a katana move and the end scence is the Bow Down emote
let me go plug a ma move in really quick and see what happens
hers the Bring It emote with rifle (default) and Katna (default)
Here's gun of choice, katana [default] and a MA roundhose kick
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heres the code|
Originally Posted by Diggis
All you are doing is calling another weapon model right?
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Code:
0 1 Player 0 1 NEW "Zen Motif" 0 1 COSTUME 1 003f639b 7.273285 -1.000000 0.000000 -0.366484 -1.000000 -0.343371 -1.000000 0.018330 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0.000000 0 1 PARTSNAME Tight tights none 00ffffff 00660044 0 1 PARTSNAME Tight tights !Chest_V_Pattern_Emblem_Circle_02 00ffffff 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME V_fem_Head.GEO/GEO_Head_V_Asym_Standard !v_face_mask_05 v_asym_stripe_vertical_02 00ffffff 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME V_FEM_GLOVE.GEO/GEO_Larm*_Alpha_01 !Glove_V_Alpha_02 !Glove_V_Alpha_02_Mask 00ffffff 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME V_FEM_BOOT.GEO/GEO_LlegR_Sport_01 !Boot_V_Sport_02 !Boot_V_Sport_01_Mask 00000000 00ffffff 0 1 PARTSNAME V_FEM_BELT.GEO/GEO_Belt_Enforcer_01 !X_Enforcer_Emblem !Emblem_v_Enforcer_01_Mask 00000000 0063c0c0 0 1 PARTSNAME V_FEM_HAIR.GEO/GEO_Hair_V_Top_knot skin_01a skin_01b 001f1f1f 00660044 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME V_FEM_EYES.GEO/GEO_Eyes_Alpha_01 !X_Alpha_Eyes !Hair_V_Alpha_01_Mask 0063c0c0 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME Tight base Yin_Yang 00000000 00ffffff 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00001133 00660044 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00ffffff 00ffffff 00ffffff 00ffffff WEAPONS/Custom_AssaultRifle/Male_AssaultRifle_Base.fx 0 1PARTSNAME V_FEM_NECK.GEO/GEO_Neck_Alpha_01 !Hair_V_Alpha_01 !Hair_V_Alpha_01_Mask 00000000 0063c0c0 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00001133 00660044 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00ffffff 002887b7 002887b7 00000000 WEAPONS/Custom_DualBlades/_Fem_DualBladeLeft_Sai01.fx 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00ffffff 00ffffff 00001133 00660044 WEAPONS/Custom_Pistols/Fem_PistolRight_SemiAuto03_LaserSight.fx 0 1 PARTSNAME none none none 00000000 00000000 0 1 MOV DUALPISTOLS_EXECUTIONER_DRAW 8 0 1 FX Maintained 110962 WEAPONS/CUSTOMWEAPON_PISTOLS.FX 0 0 1 FXSCALE 10.000000 10 0 1 ORIGIN ENT 0 0 0 1 TARGET ENT 1 0 0 1 PYR 0 1.583068 0 00000000000000000000000000000 added a second fx maintain 0 1 FX Maintained 120962 WEAPONS/KATANA_LEFT.FX 0 0 1 FXSCALE 10.000000 10 0 1 ORIGIN ENT 0 0 0 1 TARGET ENT 1 0 0 1 PYR 0 1.583068 0 0 1 MOV EMOTE_BRING_IT 4 0 1 HP 1680.00 0 1 HPMAX 1680.00 0 1 POS 0 0 8 0 1 PYR 0 -16 0
I have 2 FX MAINTAINED effects running Katana and Dual Pistols. These are the continuing FXs that are putting the gun and katana in my hand. and few animations make them go away.
I apologize if this is information overload.
Hey guys, it's interesting, but I'm not sure the Devs are going to appreciate posting the game code itself in a public forum. Maybe something in the forum rules or the TOS agreement has something to say about it, I'm too lazy to go hunting though.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Hey guys, it's interesting, but I'm not sure the Devs are going to appreciate posting the game code itself in a public forum. Maybe something in the forum rules or the TOS agreement has something to say about it, I'm too lazy to go hunting though.
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It's demorecord data, not code from the .pigg files. There are guides, housed in these very forums, detailing all of the steps necessary to make, edit and alter demos using this very information. Use of the developer-provided demo recording and editing tools is most certainly not a violation of the terms of service, any more than screenshots, costume files or AE files. They have entire lists of guides and repositories of information on the subject stickied and linked in the Player Guides and Multi-Media City of Heroes and Villains forums, going back beyond five years, so I'm pretty sure they're aware that players are using the demorecord function.
Cool Warden. Maybe it's a hangover from BaB's trying to eliminate redraw? Or maybe demorecord works differently than the game?
Or possibly the animaters just like the weapon draw animations too much to work a way to remove them. 
An interesting factoid -- My DP/Dark has to redraw after using any of her Dark powers... EXCEPT for Darkest Night. That toggle doesn't put the pistols away at all. This has always confused me, and it doesn't seem to make any sense why one power out of the set doesn't put the pistols away while the others do.
Also, I thought archery and dual pistols were given a slight accuracy buff to compensate for the redraw, no? Isn't the base accuracy modifier 1.1 for these powersets, rather than the normal 1.0?
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Demorecord works differently from the game. All that stuff in those pictures was manually inserted, and all it proves is that the model is capable of having things in the hand while doing animations.
The actual code of the game doesn't allow for it, because the actual code of the game does all these things automatically.
BaBs once said that Brawl was *the* most animation intensive power ever, due to the fact that it's the one power that can be used with weapons in hand.
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Various toggles don't force redraw. My bow stays out when I turn on Oppressive Gloom, and the Nemesis Staff isn't shoved back into hammerspace when toggling on Radiation Infection and Enervating Field with my Rad/Energy defender (which is actually really nifty). These aren't cases of specific powers being coded with extra animations, those animations don't actually exist. The powers just aren't referencing the sequencer which despawns the weapons. It's may be a bug or it may be an intentional byproduct of the changes made to toggles (rooting was removed for many) some time back.|
Originally Posted by Jazra
An interesting factoid -- My DP/Dark has to redraw after using any of her Dark powers... EXCEPT for Darkest Night. That toggle doesn't put the pistols away at all. This has always confused me, and it doesn't seem to make any sense why one power out of the set doesn't put the pistols away while the others do.
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| Also, I thought archery and dual pistols were given a slight accuracy buff to compensate for the redraw, no? Isn't the base accuracy modifier 1.1 for these powersets, rather than the normal 1.0? |
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I agree that it is a very neat animation when turning on RI or EF with the Nemesis Staff out.|
Originally Posted by Luminara
and the Nemesis Staff isn't shoved back into hammerspace when toggling on Radiation Infection and Enervating Field with my Rad/Energy defender (which is actually really nifty).
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you owe me a new keyboard,
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| coffee mug, |
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| and a few wet naps for my boss, who not-so-conveniently sits across from me. |
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| Also, a new job would be nice. |
I hope you have the patience of a saint.
The title says it all but my personal experience that prompted this post is with a recently-made Dual Pistols/Kinetics Corruptor. Every time I use a Kinetic power he stows his pistols and then, when I go back to using powers to actually damage things, out comes the twirling pistols animation that wastes around a second. In addition it holds me in place from the start of the draw until the power has finished, if it happens, even though normally you can simply draw your pistols on the run if there is no target. I can avoid it sometimes by jumping right as the drawing animation would happen but it is not a sure thing and it imposes a very large penalty compared to, say, a Fire/Kinetics Corruptor who never has to waste that time because of no reliance on weapon models.
So why is there a nerf on the powerset in the form of an animation that was neat the first couple times I saw it?