Ninjitsu, IMHO, is the very embodiment of how playing a Stalker should be. It's the perfect secondary in my mind, for the AT though I still prefer SR the most. The problem here though is Dual Blades.
Have you used it before? Do you understand the mechanics involved? Dual Blades isn't necessarily a damage heavy set from the get go and unless you're planning on fully speccing out with IOs it's still going to lack compared to Ninja Blade or the rest. The thing about Dual Blades is it's very situational, very reliant mostly on it's chain-listings than on just mashing 1-2-3-4-5 (for me a stalker 4-5-x-x-x-x- where 4 is BU and 5 is AS). Skill chains are the very focus of the primary set, much easier to control though than say Assassins from Guild Wars where defying the progression of the chain resulted in misses. In CoX this isn't the case, as any power can be activated on it's own but you still gain a better benefit from following the chain of your choosing.
From weakening foes to bleeding or frontal AoE knock downs. It can be fun, just don't expect to see single digit high numbers outside of AS.
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That won't be a problem. Regardless of what you do, you have 5 seconds to use the next power in the chain, so you can generally fit in a quick power use (like Placate; maybe not Smoke Flash, though) between attacks if you need to. Or you could change your style a bit and re-stealth *after* the combo's done. Stalkers are quite capable of standing toe-to-toe for a few attacks, after all, even if they're a bit more fragile than Scrappers & Brutes.
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Originally Posted by Gorndt
Hi folks,
I'm going to be rolling my first stalker, but first I wanted to check and make sure my build makes sense. I was thinking with restealthing so often from ninjitsu I wouldn't get a chance to finish any dual blades combos, so it's not really worth it to pick Dual Blades in particular. Anyone have experience with this? |
I agree that your secondary shouldn't interfere with your ability to complete combos, with the possible exception of Regeneration if you found yourself needing to use a lot of click powers for mitigation and thus missed the 5 second window to activate the next power in the combo.
The combos are only three powers. You won't be restealthing so often you won't have time to finish a three move combo. Even if you did want to use a power from your secondary mid-combo, that won't break the combo unless it causes you to miss the 5 second window.
So if you want to roll a DB/Nin, I'd say go ahead. There should be no problems created by combining the two sets.
What exactly do you mean by the "re-stealthing" of Ninjutsu interfering with your combos? I guess I have never heard that term used before.
Do you mean with powers like [Placate] and [Smoke Flash] you will be going in and out of Hidden status more often than a normal Stalker? If so, wouldn't that only improve your overall damage?
Thanks everyone for the feedback - I guess my question had come from a fundamental misunderstanding of both Stalker and Dual Blade mechanics. I thought you automatically went back into "Hidden" status after a set period of time of not being hit, and that to maximize your damage you'd want to use Assassin Strike at that time and maybe interrupt your combos. Additionally I had been told that using non-combo abilities during your combo window as Dual Blades ended the combo. I've been playing my stalker since then and neither of these seem to be the case.
You do go back to hiding but often times a mob hits you faster than the duration required. In most cases, while flashy and entertaining, sometimes even waiting around to get that crit easily gets interrupted. In any case, the duration is long enough to make interrupting chains difficult. You'll get the hang of it.
You dont play dual blades on stalkers for the combos you do it for the aoe. Basically build up 1,000 cuts from hide every minion dead. The set was butchered alot for stalkers making the combos not worth the time. Its just best to leverage the aoe the set has.
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Oh, you do go back to Hidden after maybe 5 seconds of not being hit - and not attacking. But doing so for your Assassin's attack will severely lower your damage output and any Stalker who stays out of battle long enough to re-Hide before attacking again tends to be severely hated once they're spotted doing this (using Placate once your Assassin's has recharged is a different matter, of course).
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Originally Posted by Gorndt
Thanks everyone for the feedback - I guess my question had come from a fundamental misunderstanding of both Stalker and Dual Blade mechanics. I thought you automatically went back into "Hidden" status after a set period of time of not being hit, and that to maximize your damage you'd want to use Assassin Strike at that time and maybe interrupt your combos.
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Waiting to go back into Hide is not the most efficient way to make use of a Stalker's Assassination ability. It is far better to simply use the attack from Hide as a combo opener to begin your attack chain, and then use Placate for controllable Criticals during the fight. When you have finished off the spawn, you have plenty of time to go back into Hide while repositioning yourself for the next opener.
Assassin Strike, of course, is the best opener, but mainly when facing Bosses and AVs. It can be useful for single shotting Lts. (Since you don't have to worry about them attacking you until the attack goes off) but in terms of DPS it doesn't really maximize it. Depending on the situation, it can be more helpful to open with a standard attack and just Crit on it, especially if there's a good chance you will be seen through your stealth.
The idea that Stalkers have to rely on Assassin Strike and are unable to survive in melee long enough to scrap is a fairly common misconception. In fact, Stalkers have exactly the same defensive strength as Scrappers, and only 10% fewer hit points. They also do about 10% less damage, but can usually count on taking out one foe with their first attack.
IIRC, Dual Blades counts Placate for some of its combos, and so there should be no problem making those combos. The problem will be that Dual Blades is not particularly strong, and the combos can be somewhat forced in comparison to Dual Blades on other ATs, since they have to take into account Build Up, Placate and AS. It's not really a problem with compatibility with Ninjitsu.
I will also add that I have found that Smoke Flash is not that useful for initiating a Critical. It can be used with Assassin Strike, as the animation time of the AS can cover part of the time going back into Hide, but it doesn't actually cause the next attack to Crit automatically, like Placate does. Rather, it's more an emergency escape power to get foes off your back if you get in trouble.
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You go back into Hide after 8 seconds, actually. I've done some calculations, and found that if you pause for five seconds, and then begin an Assassin Strike, it will go off just as you go into Hide. (I usually count four seconds, and this seems to work well given my reaction time) This will *just* give you a DPA that comes close to average. So it is a viable strategy, but a) only against Bosses and AVs, where you can expect to apply the whole damage, and b) only if you time it perfectly and have made sure you can't be hit during the "wind up". |
Originally Posted by JD_Gumby
But doing so for your Assassin's attack will severely lower your damage output and any Stalker who stays out of battle long enough to re-Hide before attacking again tends to be severely hated once they're spotted doing this (using Placate once your Assassin's has recharged is a different matter, of course).
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OTOH, it may still be useful to do this just for the Demoralize effect. It's still better to preceed it with a Placate, though, which will not cut into AS's DPA nearly as much.
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Really? AS is scale 7 damage from Hide. 7/8 seconds is 0.875 scale DPS. Most stalker attack chains should average out better than 1 DPS, I think, except those whose animations are excessively long anyway. Spines maybe?|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
You go back into Hide after 8 seconds, actually. I've done some calculations, and found that if you pause for five seconds, and then begin an Assassin Strike, it will go off just as you go into Hide. (I usually count four seconds, and this seems to work well given my reaction time) This will *just* give you a DPA that comes close to average.
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Also you cannot count on timing this perfectly every time or, certainly, not being interrupted some of the time even with a soft-capped defense build. Knock more off that 0.875 DPA to account for this and it starts to look considerably below-average to me.
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Also, I see now what may have been your source of confusion. Basically, you go back into Hide as long as you are not hit, but also as long as you do not attack. You must stop attacking to go back into Hide. Thus, it's more productive to keep attacking as long as you still have foes around. Placate is useful because it forces you back into Hide immediately without making you wait, although of course your next attack will immediately break the Hide. (And Critical) |
Originally Posted by Gorndt
I thought you automatically went back into "Hidden" status after a set period of time of not being hit, and that to maximize your damage you'd want to use Assassin Strike at that time and maybe interrupt your combos.
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You can use any Power between two attacks in a Dual Blades Combo, as long as it is not a Dual Blades Power. That is, you can add a Brawl or Air Superiority in between attacks of a combo, as long as it doesn't take so long that the time to make the next attack in the combo runs out. You can also use Kuji-In Sha (Heal) or another of your other Ninjitsu powers, but you can't use Placate since it is a Dual Blades attack. (But Placate is itself part of certain combos)
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Oh, yes. I didn't say it was average, I said it just comes close to average. It depends a lot on the Primary, of course, Ninja Blades' attacks are all such high DPA that an AS like this wouldn't even come close. For Dual Blades, though, consider that One Thousand Cuts has a scale 0.71 DPA.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Really? AS is scale 7 damage from Hide. 7/8 seconds is 0.875 scale DPS. Most stalker attack chains should average out better than 1 DPS, I think, except those whose animations are excessively long anyway. Spines maybe?
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It's more the effect of applying the Demoralize. And with Placate that's 7/4.5 seconds, which is well above scale 1 DPA. So this would only be if you couldn't use Placate for some reason. (Like it wasn't recharged)
Also, I'll add that while of course it's all subject to human skill and reaction time, you would obviously not attempt this unless you felt you had an exceptional chance to succeed at it. For instance, if the AV was alone and being held, so you could be assured of not being interrupted by an AoE attack or one of his minions. That's just a case of knowing where and when to use your available options.
Thanks everyone! I've definitely learned a lot.
Hi folks,
I'm going to be rolling my first stalker, but first I wanted to check and make sure my build makes sense. I was thinking with restealthing so often from ninjitsu I wouldn't get a chance to finish any dual blades combos, so it's not really worth it to pick Dual Blades in particular. Anyone have experience with this?