I'm trying to figure out how to calculate defense. It isn't working.

"Softcapping Defense" (i.e., hitting the magic 45% mark) is, apparently, a very good idea. So I started looking into figuring out how to do it, and my brain immediately locked up.

The problem is, it looks like you have to add at least two, maybe three sets of defense categories together in order to figure it out, and I'm not sure I properly understand how to do this. I'm going to describe what I see. Someone tell me if I understand this properly...

When I look at the Defense category in the combat attributes window, I see TWENTY different categories of defense, which can be, I think, separated into three groups:

Base Defense

Ranged/Melee/AOE defense

Smashing/lethal/Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative/Psionic Defense

If I understand this right:

Base Defense is a value that can work against any kind of attack.

Ranged/Melee/AOE is a value that can work against a specific method of attack delivery -- i.e. Ranged is single-target attack from a distance, Melee is single-target attack up close and personal, AOE is attack hitting multiple targets.

The rest of the values are for specific damage types.

When I look at these categories, it looks like you need to add your base + method of attack + damage type defenses together to get your entire defense against a specific kind of attack.

If this is true, then powers like combat jumping and weave are very desirable, because (and this is just based on what I'm seeing in this window, I could be completely off here) the value for these powers are being used THREE TIMES -- they show up in the base calculation, then show up AGAIN in the method category, and yet AGAIN in the damage type calculation.

Is this right? That would mean a tanker with combat jumping (2.5%) would actually have a 7.5% defense bonus against all types of attacks, unslotted. Though it's possible I'm being fooled by a very poorly designed layout of information, and the Base Defense isn't intended to be considered a distinct value, in which case you're still getting a 5% defense bonus against all types of attacks, unslotted.

Am I interpreting that information correctly? Or is there another/better/more accurate way of reading it? And how do I manage to reach the soft cap without this headache driving me into a blind, desperate rage?

Freaking math. Thanks a lot devs.

You're kind of off.

I'm not sure what Base Defense is, it's always at 0 as far as I know.

What happens is, say you're hit by a Smashing Melee attack. The defense that applies is the best of either your Smashing or your Melee defense.
If the attack was Smashing, Melee, and Energy, it'd be the best of one of those 3. And so on.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Defense

When an attack occurs, the highest value of defense you currently have that applies to that attack is taken into consideration. For example:

An enemy attacks you with a fire sword. A fire sword is a melee attack with fire and lethal damage components. Let's say you have these defenses:

10% fire defense
5% melee defense
15% lethal defense

Only the lethal defense will be taken into calculation, as it is the highest applicable defense.


With that out of the way, when people say softcapping defense they don't mean softcapping all forms of defense, as that is impossible. Depending on the character at hand, softcapping different sorts of defense is realistic. A shield defense character will want to softcap Melee/Ranged/Aoe defense. An invulnerability character will want to softcap Smashing/Lethal/Energy/Negative defense. A character with no base defense will want to settle for the most realistic softcap option, that being Smashing/Lethal defense.

Ha! Well, that's a lot easier to understand.

Thanks for the clarification.

All your other categories will already include base defense. Which adds to everything.

Only time I've seen it is that I have a MM with one of the 5% pet defense IOs, and the combat attributes for the pets show 5% base defense.

Yeah, I get it now. Thanks for clearing it up everyone -- the defense values make a lot more sense the way you guys explain it.

To expand a little, the basic way to think about it is enemies that are the same level as you have a base 50% chance to hit you. The best chances you can possibly get to dodge an attack are 95%. Therefor if you have a score of 45% (because 50 + 45 = 95) in any category you are "soft capped" to attacks that carry that tag. It turns out this holds true for enemies all the way to +4 levels above you.

It is called the "soft cap" because it is possible to have more than 45% (the "hard" cap is much higher). However that extra defense doesn't benefit you except to help prevent defense debuffs or to aid against enemies with above normal accuracy.

The reason you've heard it's a good idea to soft cap (and it is) is because of the weird behavior of the math. If an enemy has a 95% chance to hit you, that's 1/20. If it has a 90% chance to hit you, that's 2/20, which is 1/10, which means you get hit twice as often! The last 5% of defense is worth almost as much as everything leading up to it. (FYI this is considered a major design flaw by most people, but its one you should still keep in mind). While adding extra defense to your build is always a good idea, missing the soft cap by more than about 1% short changes you. This is part of why people always try so hard to hit that number specificlly.

As was stated previously, you always use your best defense against an attack. The system decides which defenses you can use by looking at the "tags' applied to the power. A tag is just a kind of label that categorizes the attack for combat system purposes.

Informally, there are two categories of tags. The "Positional" tags are Melee, Ranged, and AoE. The "Elemental" tags are Smashing, Lethal, Cold, Fire, Energy, Negative, and Psi. Most powers have at least one Positional tag and one or more Elemental one. For example, most Ice Blast powers are tagged as Ranged, Cold, Smashing. When these powers are cast at you, you use whichever defense you have that is highest, and the rest are ignored for that attack roll.

Note that the tags applied to a power are not always obvious. For example, powers in the Mind Control set are tagged for Psi but not Ranged. This means Ranged defense doesn't help you dodge them. The tags applied to a power does not show in game or in Mids hero designer. The only place I know to find them is on the Red Tomax Power Quantification site: http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/

The tags are listed in the "Attack types" box under the itemized breakdown of each power. If the power summons a pet or psuedo-pet to do the damage, make sure to follow the link to the pet and find the actual power the pet is casting. Sometimes various powers the pet uses all have different tags.

Also note that despite the existence of Toxic Resistanc, there is no Toxic Defense.

So... if someone has an attack that does 10% smashing and 90% energy, but my highest defence is smashing, then that is the defence used against the entire attack? That's interesting. Most melee attacks (not all, but most) have some element of smashing or lethal to it, so I guess that's why everyone says s/l defence is the best bet for close combat defence?

[QUOTE=Auroxis;3407530]With that out of the way, when people say softcapping defense they don't mean softcapping all forms of defense, as that is impossible.[QUOTE]

If I'm not mistaken a stalker or scrapper can softcap to everything (Ranged/Melee/AOE + Smashing/lethal/Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative/Psionic), or come mightly close anyways, if they take and slot shadow meld from the Soul patron pool, weave, CJing, have both defense IO uniques. It would only be for fifteen seconds at a time, but it's doable.

Good thread BTW.