Honestly, */Poison is easily the worst secondary.
It still has a reputation but it hasn't been deserved for a long time. Its a very weak set that will leave you a lot weaker than many stronger MM builds. The stronger enemies in the game will not be significantly weakened by your poison debuffs. Even if you six slot your debuffs, any difficulty higher than standard will render them ineffective. Envenom and Weaken don't do anything noticeable to challenging enemies like named mobs -- the results will be they'll AoE one-shot all your ninjas and leave you high and dry since poison comes with absolutely no defenses at all.
Noxious gas is the only good power, and when its not up your mostly useless... also with Ninjas your T3 pet isn't melee, which means you'll end up having to micro it to get it to work as best as it can.
Ditch poison, replace it with anything but trick arrow. Traps or Dark are generally pretty sweet on anything.
/Poison takes a certain type of gameplay to work effectively. Ninjas use the same type of gameplay so it works out well. Ninja/Poison do poorly compared to other secondaries when doing missions set for more than one character, but do quite well when doing max level/one player difficulty. Nin/Poison is all about single targets so tougher opponents, but less of them is where they shine.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Originally Posted by Lewisite
Honestly, */Poison is easily the worst secondary.
It still has a reputation but it hasn't been deserved for a long time. Its a very weak set that will leave you a lot weaker than many stronger MM builds. The stronger enemies in the game will not be significantly weakened by your poison debuffs. Even if you six slot your debuffs, any difficulty higher than standard will render them ineffective. Envenom and Weaken don't do anything noticeable to challenging enemies like named mobs -- the results will be they'll AoE one-shot all your ninjas and leave you high and dry since poison comes with absolutely no defenses at all. Noxious gas is the only good power, and when its not up your mostly useless... also with Ninjas your T3 pet isn't melee, which means you'll end up having to micro it to get it to work as best as it can. Ditch poison, replace it with anything but trick arrow. Traps or Dark are generally pretty sweet on anything. |
[sarcasm]You're so right, posion debuffs are compleatly worthless. That's why on LGTF my nin/posion can drop 2 1/2 riders in the time it takes the rest of the team to drop one, and why I've had AVs drop in TFs before the rest of the team noticed they were in the group pulled [/sarcasm]
It's true that nin/posion is squishy (after all, you can only heal one at a time, and your heal is one of the worst available to any AT). It's also true that you lack alot of AoE goodness (ninjas only get a couple AoE attacks, and aside from neurotoxic breath and your t9 all debuffs are single target), but posion, and especialy nin/posion tears through single hard targets like tissue paper, especialy if you can get someone else to take the hits so the ninjas all stay alive.
Now kiwi, looking at your build, /posions posion trap is useless, even as a mule. I'd recomend picking up a personal attack and slotting it with thunderstrike instead. Also, I think you'll be getting more recovery sticking that extra slot in health and going with numina and miricle uniques. You're pets would be more effective frankenslotted, and achilies heel would be better off in joinin, although that would have the negitive side effect of dropping you from energy softcap, so guess it's your call if you think it's worth it. Not exactly a build wizard so nothing else really jumps out at me.
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Originally Posted by BackAlleyBrawler
That...was a Herocon 09 exclusive easter egg. The powerset will not have doves associated with it.
Namely because you guys would want to color tint the damn doves, or make them hawks/ravens/flying sharks/etc and that's just a headache I do...not...want...to deal with. |
Starphoenix may have overstated a bit, but he's right, AVs, and I believe EBs even, do heavily resist debuffs, so when you consider that the strength of /poison is ostensibly single-target debuffing...
Don't get me wrong, my favorite villain, if not toon overall, is thugs/poison. That has more to do with theme and concept than power. It may not be the weakest set overall, but some people DO oversell it's capabilities.
Let me say this having done Ninja/Poison to 50. My advice dont do it. Its the hardest possible mastermind combination in the game next to Ninja/Trick Arrow. You dont get much aoe debuffing until the end of the set. Ninjas are already retarded as it is so your going to have all kinds of hell keeping them alive. Of all the things in your build I would get rid of the fighting pool. You have no business getting attacked as a mastermind anyways and when you do get stray aggro there is always bodyguard. I would change out the fight pool for the medicine pool so you will have the extra heal while your main heal is recharging. Even using full body guard with provoke is better than just taking tough/weave on a mastermind.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I agree with you on the taking out hard targets part, its just keeping the ninjas alive thats the problem. Your also right on franken slotting pets. But what I do is get 3 acc/dam HO in the tier 1 and tier 2 pets, for the tier 3 pet 2 acc/dam HO and 1 damage/end Pet purple cuz the oni tends to run dry. Then for the remaining slots do procs and uniques. Put the defense resists uniques in the genin, the lady grey proc in the jounin with the achiles heal. Then just move all the remaining slots to other powers.
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Originally Posted by Come Undone
[sarcasm]You're so right, posion debuffs are compleatly worthless. That's why on LGTF my nin/posion can drop 2 1/2 riders in the time it takes the rest of the team to drop one, and why I've had AVs drop in TFs before the rest of the team noticed they were in the group pulled [/sarcasm]
It's true that nin/posion is squishy (after all, you can only heal one at a time, and your heal is one of the worst available to any AT). It's also true that you lack alot of AoE goodness (ninjas only get a couple AoE attacks, and aside from neurotoxic breath and your t9 all debuffs are single target), but posion, and especialy nin/posion tears through single hard targets like tissue paper, especialy if you can get someone else to take the hits so the ninjas all stay alive. Now kiwi, looking at your build, /posions posion trap is useless, even as a mule. I'd recomend picking up a personal attack and slotting it with thunderstrike instead. Also, I think you'll be getting more recovery sticking that extra slot in health and going with numina and miricle uniques. You're pets would be more effective frankenslotted, and achilies heel would be better off in joinin, although that would have the negitive side effect of dropping you from energy softcap, so guess it's your call if you think it's worth it. Not exactly a build wizard so nothing else really jumps out at me. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I'm fairly aware of that, most of my characters are Masterminds, I've tried all primaries (Except Mercs, I can't get a concept or combo I like)|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Let me say this having done Ninja/Poison to 50. My advice dont do it. Its the hardest possible mastermind combination in the game next to Ninja/Trick Arrow.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You have no business getting attacked as a mastermind anyways
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Even using full body guard with provoke is better than just taking tough/weave on a mastermind.
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FYI using body guard with all 6 pets means you have 75% resistance cap already. Thats how it works like psuedo resistance. Your not going to see much gains with tough and weave. Solo tankerminding will work but on teams your just going to get killed. Trust me, been there done that not worth it on ninjas. Mostly because they are melee and have no resistance. There is no way for you to take all the aggro, especially beyond the initial alpha strike. Most critters are going to have aoe so you will get hit, the pets take the damage from body guard and the splash damage from the aoe. This means you die 5 seconds later. Other primaries like mercs or thugs this works out better since they are range and wont be so close to get hit by aoes. Now if you were just killing an av this might be different but I dont see it working that way for the other 99% of all situations. Also I forgot to mention the resistance from tough gets applied after your pets take the damage, you are getting resistance after the fact, which is why you wont see much difference.
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Originally Posted by Kiwi
I'm fairly aware of that, most of my characters are Masterminds, I've tried all primaries (Except Mercs, I can't get a concept or combo I like)
Ahh, another "MM's should meatshield not Tankermind" person... Sometimes it is more efficient for the Mastermind to be the one to get attacked because it's easier to keep the pets and yourself alive when everyone is taking small amounts of damage due to bodyguard rather than having pets take large chunks, especially with ninja's when 3 of them can and will get one shotted. That's implying that Tough/Weave and bodyguard mode are mutually exlusive... I would be better to use both to keep myself and my pets alive. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
I think Ninja/Poison is a pretty bad combo mainly because /Poison offers very little for pet support. If you only solo, then it's fine but I am sure others can solo much higher difficulty than Ninja/Poison. The single hold is handy. The single debuffs are ok...they are not as "devastating" as some of suggested. It's really just single target.
Ninja set requires a lot of babysitting and /Poison counters that. I have a lvl 50 Merc/Poison who I already don't play anymore. I can achieve better results with Merc/Storm.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I'm pretty sure that Tough/Weave gets applied BEFORE your pets take any damage. That's why Defense and Resistance are so strong on a mastermind with bodyguard mode.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
FYI using body guard with all 6 pets means you have 75% resistance cap already. Thats how it works like psuedo resistance. Your not going to see much gains with tough and weave. Solo tankerminding will work but on teams your just going to get killed. Trust me, been there done that not worth it on ninjas. Mostly because they are melee and have no resistance. There is no way for you to take all the aggro, especially beyond the initial alpha strike. Most critters are going to have aoe so you will get hit, the pets take the damage from body guard and the splash damage from the aoe. This means you die 5 seconds later. Other primaries like mercs or thugs this works out better since they are range and wont be so close to get hit by aoes. Now if you were just killing an av this might be different but I dont see it working that way for the other 99% of all situations. Also I forgot to mention the resistance from tough gets applied after your pets take the damage, you are getting resistance after the fact, which is why you wont see much difference.
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Having said that, I have a lvl 50 Necro/Poison MM and in my experience tankerminding does not work well. You have to accomplish a few things. 1) Keep aggro on you. 2) Stay away from your pets to avoid all the AoE Damage killing them 3) Keep the enemies away from you (same end result as number 2 since if the enemies get into melee with you, your pets follow)
In addition to all of this, Poison's heal is garbage mostly because the activation time is so long. And when your pets are taking damage at the same rate, they usually all need healed at the same time. By the time you finish healing the first two, the third T1 pet is possibly dead.
Also, Poison offers no mez protection to you which is why Traps and FF both work so well for tankerminding.
I think you'd have better luck going with a /Traps or /FF or even /Dark because it's just that good.
And drop Poison Trap and take anything else. Seriously, anything else.
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Yeah, I didn't originally look at the specific build, but what he says. I dismissed poison trap as a bad choice simply by word of mouth, which is something I seldom do, simply because I had never heard a single good thing about it right from the start. People in beta badmouthed it. People that leveled up fast after release badmouthed it. So I figured it was a safe skip.|
Originally Posted by Wyatt_Earp
And drop Poison Trap and take anything else. Seriously, anything else.
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Queue the recent double-freespec. I figured it was finally time to see for myself. Everybody is/was/and will continue to be correct; /poison's poison trap is complete and utter garbage. An interruptable PBAoE sleep? A weak one at that. The end drain is virtually non-existant, I never saw it even budge a minion's bar. I even tried using it as a true trap, laying it down and luring mobs into it. More than once I saw enemies run right over it without even triggering the damned thing.
The only good thing about poison trap is that it is one more power slot for you to use to pick up something else.
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I totally agree with you! Poison is the worst secondary for repairing a massive amount of damage to poorly managed pets.|
Originally Posted by Lewisite
Honestly, */Poison is easily the worst secondary.
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Now if you actually learn how to use an MM primary outside of leaving all pets in defensive, something many MMs seem reluctant to do, then you may find, with practice, that /Poison is right at the top of the heap with /Dark and /Traps.
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Don't you L2P jerks belong on a certain games Klingon forums? what a rude and nasty childish little sentiment. You can't possibly disagree with a modicum of Grace and gentlemanly behaviour?|
Originally Posted by Briarpatch
I totally agree with you! Poison is the worst secondary for repairing a massive amount of damage to poorly managed pets.
Now if you actually learn how to use an MM primary outside of leaving all pets in defensive, something many MMs seem reluctant to do, then you may find, with practice, that /Poison is right at the top of the heap with /Dark and /Traps. |
There is nothing about suggesting some new tactics that requires that kind of attitude.
Why don't you apologize for your poor behaviour and reply with some useful advice.
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Perhaps you're just overly sensitive. The remark certainly wasn't meant to be offensive in any way. Perhaps before flying off the handle you could verify there was ill intent.|
Originally Posted by Lewisite
Don't you L2P jerks belong on a certain games Klingon forums? what a rude and nasty childish little sentiment. You can't possibly disagree with a modicum of Grace and gentlemanly behaviour?
There is nothing about suggesting some new tactics that requires that kind of attitude. Why don't you apologize for your poor behaviour and reply with some useful advice. |
The "new tactic" would be, as I suggested, to learn how to manage your primary. Not sure if you've noticed, but people don't actively look for MMs to join their teams. I'm going to speculate based on the conversation I've had with people that the primary reason is poor pet management. I don't really have a magic bullet tactic for people to learn how to manage their pets other than get some good bind and practice-- a lot!
Maybe I did, or maybe not. Its academic anyway.
I'm interested though in what you mean by " manage your primary". That's all rather vague... I've had a poison mm since the day villains came out, and I understand the numbers fine. It seems to me the sets single target nature and the high debuff resistance of stronger mobs means it just does less and offers little in the way of mitigation.
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Managing your primary is vague because to fully explain I'd have to take the time to talk about each primary. I really don't have that kind of time, and frankly I'm not an expert on all the sets. |
Originally Posted by Lewisite
Maybe I did, or maybe not. Its academic anyway.
I'm interested though in what you mean by " manage your primary". That's all rather vague... I've had a poison mm since the day villains came out, and I understand the numbers fine. It seems to me the sets single target nature and the high debuff resistance of stronger mobs means it just does less and offers little in the way of mitigation. |
I can tell you that while I play either my /poison Thugs or Zombie MM that I'm constantly sending individual and groups of pets various goto, attack and passive commands. Playing this way allows me to mitigate much of the splash damage that would tank your typical MM player and and allows me to placed my pets to optimize their damage.
Poison provides good debuffs, albeit half of them are single target, a "touch up" heal power and a couple of "team pleaser's" in the form of a res and mez protection. Poison is fast activating, toggle free, and not location/drop based. I don't have to spend two minutes buffing before I move, and I don't have to chase my pets or herd them into one location to heal them. Poison is the most flexible set.
Where poison falls in terms of an effective MM secondary is dependent on how much you want, or have, to lean on your secondary as a player. My /Poison can drop an AV roughly the same speed as my /Traps. The only difference is that doing it with the /Poison demands a bit more micromanaging of the primary.
My first villain 50 was a Nin/Poison MM and it still gets alot of play today. Sure, its tough trying to heal ninjas with a heal that tickles at best, but at the end of the day...theres more ninjas whre they came from It used to be even worse when the pet training/buffing could only be done singly and took forever to recharge. With the i19 respecs i've put provoke into my build now as well and that certainly adds some survivability to the ninjas and you do what healing needs to be done after each mob. Nin/Poison isn't gonna be everyones sup of tea, it needs some patience, but poison is a great debuffing set and ninjas (although squishy)...are cool! Yea...that'll do
So after playing my low level Fire/Fire Tanker (Hit level 12 last night... Inherent Fitness made my builds consume at level 8 pointless...)
I was in a team that encountered an AV in the middle of a large group, and the tactics were I keep the AV's attention in a corner to keep AoE's away from the team while everyone else takes out the adds.
So I recently I wanted to hunt AV's on a Ninja/Poison Mastermind, I've made a build that I like the look of but wanted it to get a look over:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.803
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Natural Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Ninjas
Secondary Power Set: Poison
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Presence
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Genin -- EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg(A), EdctM'r-Dmg/EndRdx(3), EdctM'r-Acc/EndRdx(3), EdctM'r-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), EdctM'r-PetDef(5), SvgnRt-PetResDam(7)
Level 1: Alkaloid -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Dct'dW-Heal(11), Dct'dW-Rchg(11)
Level 2: Envenom -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(13), HO:Enzym(13), HO:Enzym(15), HO:Enzym(15), Achilles-ResDeb%(17)
Level 4: Weaken -- SipInsght-ToHitDeb(A), SipInsght-Acc/ToHitDeb(17), SipInsght-Acc/Rchg(19), SipInsght-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SipInsght-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(21), DarkWD-Slow%(21)
Level 6: Train Ninjas -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Boxing -- P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(A), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/EndRdx(42), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(42), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg(43), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), P'ngFist-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 10: Neurotoxic Breath -- CtlSpd-Acc/Slow(A), CtlSpd-Acc/EndRdx(23), CtlSpd-Rng/Slow(23), CtlSpd-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(25)
Level 12: Call Jounin -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(25), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), BldM'dt-Acc(29), BldM'dt-Dmg(29)
Level 14: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), RctvArm-ResDam(31), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 16: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(33), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 18: Smoke Flash -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34)
Level 20: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 22: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 24: Antidote -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Oni -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(36), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(37), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), BldM'dt-Acc(37), BldM'dt-Dmg(39)
Level 28: Paralytic Poison -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(39), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(39), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(40)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Kuji In Zen -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Poison Trap -- LgcRps-Acc/Rchg(A), LgcRps-EndRdx/Sleep(40), LgcRps-Sleep/Rng(40)
Level 38: Noxious Gas -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), EndRdx-I(43)
Level 41: Provoke -- Mocking-Rchg(A), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(46), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(46), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(46)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(45), LkGmblr-Def(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 47: Power Boost -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Web Cocoon -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(50), BasGaze-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A), Empty(34)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 4: Ninja Run
Now I like that I have softcapped S/L/E and that it appears that Power Boost will give me 15 seconds of high defence in which to lay down some extra powerful debuffs at the start of a fight. But the lack of a self heal seems worrying...
If you can't tell I'm going for a tankermind because... well... Ninja's don't meatshield well. Also the slot in Rest will be in Stamina (I haven't got hacked mids)